Does anybody know if a Southern SU box car (36', truss-rod) kit - or even anything close - has ever been offered in O scale? Here's a nice-looking HO scale one built from a Funaro & Camerlengo kit:
Southern had tons of these, and I know I'd sure like to have one.
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Does anybody know if a Southern SU box car (36', truss-rod) kit - or even anything close - has ever been offered in O scale? Here's a nice-looking HO scale one built from a Funaro & Camerlengo kit:
Southern had tons of these, and I know I'd sure like to have one.
No but I did mention to Rich Yoder a request for doing one in brass.
It looks like it might not be impossible to scratch-build one, or maybe bash another kit into a reasonable facsimile. The real challenge, then, would be finding appropriate decals.
It looks like it might not be impossible to scratch-build one, or maybe bash another kit into a reasonable facsimile. The real challenge, then, would be finding appropriate decals.
Could maybe start with a generic 36' Huff 'n' Puff kit, make new ends (capture that for making an RTV mold, 
), fabricate the steel underframe (capture that for making an RTV mold, ), make one side (capture that for making an RTV mold, ), make a roof and you're ready to go into business..........
Walther's made an end that looks like that, you might want to check an old catalog to see if thats the correct end.
F&C was supposed to be doing this in O Scale maybe a year ago when I asked about more O scale offerings. Email them and see what they say. I have no interest due to the era these cars were in.
Funny thing, I just emailed them last night. I'll post when I get a reply.
F&C was supposed to be doing this in O Scale maybe a year ago when I asked about more O scale offerings. Email them and see what they say. I have no interest due to the era these cars were in.
Interesting. F&C did the old West Shore Line of kits and they sold poorly. I remember a plea from Central Hobby to O scalers to buy more of them so they could continue making them. They backed out after making the NYC USRA gons, the Erie Dunmore Covered hoppers and the NYC 1946 Despatch shops covered hoppers.
If those cars would have sold Central might have convinced F&C to do the RDG/CNJ short gons in resin as well as the Erie/Susquehanna horizontal rib cars and the then-current Lehigh Valley "wrong way" door cars (like the ones offered by Ted Schnepf now)
Anyway, Southern had thousands of these cars that lasted to the end of the K brake era. No pictures have yet surfaced of AB brake cars in Southern or M&O/GM&O paint but there are some in Lancaster and Chester lettering.
The SU's with either the Hutchins ends like in the picture or Southern "T Brace" ends are cool cars. Unfortunately the only way to get them is to scratchbuild them.
It looks like it might not be impossible to scratch-build one, or maybe bash another kit into a reasonable facsimile. The real challenge, then, would be finding appropriate decals.
Could maybe start with a generic 36' Huff 'n' Puff kit, make new ends (capture that for making an RTV mold, ), fabricate the steel underframe (capture that for making an RTV mold, ), make one side (capture that for making an RTV mold, ), make a roof and you're ready to go into business..........
So it's just that easy!
It looks like it might not be impossible to scratch-build one, or maybe bash another kit into a reasonable facsimile. The real challenge, then, would be finding appropriate decals.
Could maybe start with a generic 36' Huff 'n' Puff kit, make new ends (capture that for making an RTV mold, ), fabricate the steel underframe (capture that for making an RTV mold, ), make one side (capture that for making an RTV mold, ), make a roof and you're ready to go into business..........
So it's just that easy!
I'm only 1/2 joking. If I had the masters, the rest is easy. I'd probably buy the F&C kit to use to make the masters out of styrene. If I had the time, I might even available to be convinced to do it, too. It's an interesting car.
We've been down this road at least twice.
The last time I too sent F/C an email stating that I'd be a firm buyer of an O scale SU kit.
Never heard a peep.
As for F/C prior sales success, I'd suggest they look at what others have produced in resin, which is boxcars (I suspect there is a good reason that Clouser and Cameron and Chooch / Ultra Scale and Rails Unlimited have primarily produced boxcars/autocars).
We've been down this road at least twice.
The last time I too sent F/C an email stating that I'd be a firm buyer of an O scale SU kit.
Never heard a peep.
As for F/C prior sales success, I'd suggest they look at what others have produced in resin, which is boxcars (I suspect there is a good reason that Clouser and Cameron and Chooch / Ultra Scale and Rails Unlimited have primarily produced boxcars/autocars).
I'm sure I have a flyer from the mid 90's from CHS in Syracuse NY titled "An open letter to O scale modelers" where they lamented that kit sales and reservations for O scale were abysmal and if they didn't pick up they wouldn't produce.
I presume they didn't pick up since they didn't produce.... and I remember mentioning to Gene Deimling on his P:48 list that I was wondering if Chooch would ever rerun any of their cars. He indicated he very strongly doubted it due to poor sales.
I could kick myself for not getting some of the cars like the SOO single sheathed cars or the Espee ARA single sheathed rebuilds. IIRC Chooch only made 20 of them and they seemed to be listed as available for quite a while till selling out.
That does not look impossible to kitbash from a Huff N Puff kit. Most of the car looks pretty generic wood sheathed. The ends appear to be woodsheath with plates bolted into them. They are the "rarest" part in my opinion. but you could use the standard woodsheath end, and make the plates out of sheet styrene.
I had a friend who has sinced been called up to a crew in the sky, who built 2-3 of the F&C kits. He liked them and he was an NYC buff. I was looking at the Dispatch covered hopper one day at his house and talking about getting a kit. His comment was "they are a real bear to build, even the gon". He kind of talked me out of it.
I wonder if Huff N Puff could be convinced to make a kit for it?
That does not look impossible to kitbash from a Huff N Puff kit. Most of the car looks pretty generic wood sheathed. The ends appear to be woodsheath with plates bolted into them. They are the "rarest" part in my opinion. but you could use the standard woodsheath end, and make the plates out of sheet styrene.
Those ends are all metal, but once you make one, casting 50 in resin is easy.
Steel underframe might have some specifics that would call for making one master from which a few could be cast.
I had a friend who has sinced been called up to a crew in the sky, who built 2-3 of the F&C kits. He liked them and he was an NYC buff. I was looking at the Dispatch covered hopper one day at his house and talking about getting a kit. His comment was "they are a real bear to build, even the gon". He kind of talked me out of it.
The old flat cast Chooch kits could be a bear and test your resolve, 
I wonder if Huff N Puff could be convinced to make a kit for it?
Doubt it. But, I can see someone casting up those ends and a floor, and selling those along with a Huff 'n' Puff 36' kit with some upgraded and additional detail parts.
That does not look impossible to kitbash from a Huff N Puff kit. Most of the car looks pretty generic wood sheathed. The ends appear to be woodsheath with plates bolted into them. They are the "rarest" part in my opinion. but you could use the standard woodsheath end, and make the plates out of sheet styrene.
I had a friend who has sinced been called up to a crew in the sky, who built 2-3 of the F&C kits. He liked them and he was an NYC buff. I was looking at the Dispatch covered hopper one day at his house and talking about getting a kit. His comment was "they are a real bear to build, even the gon". He kind of talked me out of it.
I wonder if Huff N Puff could be convinced to make a kit for it?
I've built old F&C kits in HO many years ago. The O kits date back to his earlier years and they are crude by today's resin kit standards and quite a challenge to get cleaned up and built squarely.
That's why mine are unbuilt.
Perhaps Glenn Guerra might consider them in wood but the problem remains that even though they look like a simple box car they have lots of metal hardware parts that would have to have masters made and resin or brass cast.
And the ends, both the Hutchins ones that F&C did on the HO car as well as the T brace ends, are complicated. In O scale they'd have to be a resin casting or metal stamping/coining/casting.
The cars are neat but a resin kit would be challenging and interesting. Resin kit businesses aside, it is kind of surprising that none of the scratchbuilders have done the cars since they are standouts and ran into the late steam era.
This is an interesting discussion. First, here are a few nice, hi-res photos of SU cars:
http://cumberlandmodelengineer...om/images/167787.JPG
http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc...oll22/id/77210/rec/4
Interesting as these cars are to us - and they're far from uncommon - it seems we're in a minority. Time to work on those scratch-building skills...
49Lionel, thanks for the photo links, very nice !
No response from F&C, so it looks like a scratch-build project. Or perhaps bash another kit - looks like the Huff n Puff 36' boxcar wouldn't be a bad starting point.
That's a nice-looking car. Scratch-built?
That's a beautiful car Gene. Absolutely beautiful. Stan's work, as well as Mr Z and yourself is something to be appreciated.
Your work on the Lionel tank car is awesome. Might you (or any of your west coast friends I mentioned) consider bringing your rolling stock to the March Meet for contest entry. That would be most satisfying... though the thought of flying with them is NOT so satisfying!!!!
Unfortunately I can't saw a styrene strip square or straight so I have to stick to kits or RTR.
I'd suggest that someone approach Southern Car and Foundry about this car. I've built the Central Hobby/F&C, Rails Unlimited, Chooch and Southern Car and Foundry kits. Assembling the bodies are similar in all. The real difference is in the level of detail with the RU and SC&F being the most detailed and most complicated in my opinion. Also Central Hobby also produced a USRA Northeastern Caboose. They were going to produce a NYC crane tender and a LV "wrong way" boxcar which they had produced in HO. But the sales for the existing "O" kits went nowhere and these were never completed. The LV "wrong way" box was issued last year by Ted at Rails Unlimited and I have one under construction now.
http://southerncarandfoundry.c...ge=index&cPath=4
Stumbled upon some builders photos of the M&O auto car version of the SU box car. What a neat vehicle. Sorry, the links don't parse properly when I paste them into the "insert image".
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...m-72157649155982802/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...m-72157649155982802/
Funny that this thread just got resurrected. I recently came across a few 36' wooden boxcars, and am turning them into a rough approximation of SUs. Will post photos when done.
Rev Brother Love, he of Southern Caboose manufacturing fame, could have made the box . However sometime after his wife passed he remarried and seems to have retired.
It is a pleasing car. I still think that one could fund production with some sort of royalty payback. Not clear right now who does freight cars - maybe only Yoder, MTH, and Lionel? Sunset seems to have backed out of the freight car business.
Dewey Trogdon posted:Rev Brother Love, he of Southern Caboose manufacturing fame, could have made the box . However sometime after his wife passed he remarried and seems to have retired.
Funny you said that. I often entertained the thought of asking him if he would do a few oddball freight cars for me. This is one of them as is the Erie/Susquehanna horizontal rib clamshell 2-pocket hopper car.
Yes it is funny that this thread has been resurrected - I have been looking around for SU drawings - in the hope that I could scratch build one this winter
bob3 posted:Yes it is funny that this thread has been resurrected - I have been looking around for SU drawings - in the hope that I could scratch build one this winter
I would probably start by asking on the old Steam Era Freight Cars list on Yahoo - it's now REALSTMFC on groups.io . They're the experts. 
I've completed the rebuild of a few 36' kit-built boxcars I found into approximations of SUs. Yes, I know they don't have the correct ends, and are a bit crude in some details, but from a few feet away they sure look nice and I'm thrilled to even have something close. As I said on another recent post, please forgive the 3-rail track here on the 2R forum. I run a mix of both equipment, which usually works well, but these cars are a bit troublesome - super lightweight, and with the underbody detail it's hard to add enough weight. The plastic trucks and wheelsets definitely don't help, so I'm hoping to find a few pair of metal archbar trucks.
49Lionel posted:I've completed the rebuild of a few 36' kit-built boxcars I found into approximations of SUs. Yes, I know they don't have the correct ends,
Pretty sure that the correct ends are available from Scale City as metal castings.
Menards has a Southern Boxcar, I don,t know it this would suit or not?
Has the time come to reconsider this car? If not then perhaps a ventilated boxcar.
Bill N posted:Has the time come to reconsider this car? If not then perhaps a ventilated boxcar.
It would have been nice if Glenn Guerra would have been able to continue the Mullett River line. Wood equipment was his thing and the Southern SU would have fit right in.
Right now there seems to be a lull in new well-detailed O scale steam and transition era cars.
I agree Rob. However recent developments indicate the SU should still be a possibility.
Over the past few years we have seen two manufacturers produce the 120 ton battleship gondola. This was rostered by one road that only ran in two states. Only around 1,000 were produced, and it spent most of its service in captive unit train type operations. If the battleship gondola can get attention of O producers, then why not a car like the SU boxcar of which something like 15,000 were produced, that was used by Southern, Mobile & Ohio, Monon and Atlantic & Danville, and that could have been seen from the 1920s until after WW2 in much of the country. Or if not the SU, then why not a ventilated boxcar such as the ACL, CG and Seaboard used. To my knowledge this latter car was only done by Rich Yoder in limited numbers, yet it could easily fit in with many fast fruit trains coming up from the south to cities in the northeast and midwest.
The other part of the equation is that 3rdR/GGD has shown for the right car of the right quality, freight cars can be sold for a price higher than the typical Lionel or MTH car.
Bill N posted:I agree Rob. However recent developments indicate the SU should still be a possibility.
Over the past few years we have seen two manufacturers produce the 120 ton battleship gondola. This was rostered by one road that only ran in two states. Only around 1,000 were produced, and it spent most of its service in captive unit train type operations. If the battleship gondola can get attention of O producers, then why not a car like the SU boxcar of which something like 15,000 were produced, that was used by Southern, Mobile & Ohio, Monon and Atlantic & Danville, and that could have been seen from the 1920s until after WW2 in much of the country. Or if not the SU, then why not a ventilated boxcar such as the ACL, CG and Seaboard used. To my knowledge this latter car was only done by Rich Yoder in limited numbers, yet it could easily fit in with many fast fruit trains coming up from the south to cities in the northeast and midwest.
The other part of the equation is that 3rdR/GGD has shown for the right car of the right quality, freight cars can be sold for a price higher than the typical Lionel or MTH car.
It would be nice if the same science that has been applied to steam and diesel locos by Sunset could be applied to freight cars.
I get a lot of pushback when I prattle that a large number of 2 rail O scalers really don't care for accurate O scale freight cars and thus aren't willing to open their wallets for them.
This would require us to have the same fervor about freight car details as we have for locomotives and in general it just isn't there for 2 rail O scale. As an example when is the last time you've seen an O scale freight car offered with a choice of K or AB brakes?
Hint - Rich Yoder's ACL cars were the last and one of the few. Even the vaunted Pacific Limited cars didn't offer a choice of this key detail though Pat was hoping to rerun his USRA single sheathed cars with road specific details to rectify this.
If only we had the same "diversity" in freight cars as we have in steam and diesel locomotives. One can dream though.
Rule292 posted:I get a lot of pushback when I prattle that a large number of 2 rail O scalers really don't care for accurate O scale freight cars and thus aren't willing to open their wallets for them.
I think that they do care, but are not willing to spend $400+ per brass car.
mwb posted:Rule292 posted:I get a lot of pushback when I prattle that a large number of 2 rail O scalers really don't care for accurate O scale freight cars and thus aren't willing to open their wallets for them.
I think that they do care, but are not willing to spend $400+ per brass car.
The Yoder cars were sellouts at $329 and routinely fetch <>$400 in the aftermarket. Somebody must be buying them.
As the MMW reservations prove, there are a decent group of people are willing to pay for quality.
I'd love to believe that kits would be the salvation of the "well detailed O scale freight car dilemma" but that has not proven true in this scale. Moderately priced accurate model kits like the Intermountain cars languish at a meager $20 and even the San Juan kits (top notch scale models) are easily found under their original cost.
The original attempt at semi-scale Sunset freight cars did not sell well. They were somewhat accurate but not as well detailed as their peers which may have hurt them. "We want brass with $100 plastic car prices with $400 Pac Limited detail" is certainly one of the (flawed) thought processes that goes on in the scale.
Given the stink when any new model comes out and we all start picking out it's flaws, I still believe that is a much bigger issue than price alone that hinders things like an O scale SU boxcar.
Sadly, a lot of research and prototyping and design work for not a lot of return.
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