Speed of upgraded Lionel

Re theCoupler.... You did replace the Lionel coupler with a MTH one and use the MTH wiring harness?

 

For what it's worth..I did a Weaver Royal Hudson with a tiny fly-wheel a few years ago(still a good runner) You  would think one might use the smallest stripped  timing tape that comes with the upgrade but the exact opposite is true.  I had to use the biggest one . You could even try making your own on the computer with bigger stripes. Way to go RJR, I didn't think anyone could convert a  Pulmor motor. 

While not a Lionel engine, I had the same problem with a recently upgraded RailKing 2-8-0 here:

 

https://ogrforum.com/d...nt/10299794801482947

 

My 1st attempt used an upgrade file, my 2nd and 3rd attempts used regular production files, all from Premier engines, at least the last 2 for sure.

 

The 1st upgrade file worked, but no generator spooling sound.  The next 2 Premier files were way off on the speed of the engine vice the handheld readout, as well as my existing engines.

 

I finally settled on a production file for a RailKing engine and that seemed to solve the problems I was having.  Still no generator sound but the speed is back to matching the handheld and my other engines and the bell and whistle sound great.

 

If you have your rig set up so you can quickly take the engine from it to your layout, you can load files until you hit on one that's right.  The 4 files I tried took approximately 5 minutes each to load.

 

Make sure you use the correct type of file (3v or 5v, freight sounds or passenger sounds, RailKing or Premier).  I downloaded files to individual folders labeled for the MTH product number (20-XXXX-1, or 30-XXXX-1) so I could keep track of them and not duplicate files being downloaded.

Gregg:  I did not replace the Lionel coupler with the MTH.  The 1946 Lionel coupler was mounted in such a way that the MTH coupler could not be mounted.  I used the Lionel coupler, fed through a relay powered by the PS2 board coupler output.  Power for the coupler came from the center rail pickup roller.

 

I upgraded a Weaver 0-6-0 some years ago.  It had a 22mm flywheel.  I had to cut down the 27mm tape to fit, and it runs slightly over stated speed. 

 

If I were to use a "bigger" timing tape than the 27.7 mm, wouldn't that mean train would have to go even faster to get the same number of stripes pasrt the sensor?

 

As noted in the other thread, I had Frank Timko provide a DC motor and gear.  I do believe that if one could find a way to mount a timing tape on it, a Pulmor motor could be used by inserting a full wave DC rectified between armature and coiul windings, and removing the coil lead connected to ground.

 

Bob:  The Lionel and MTH Berkshires have drivers of similar diameters, so I'm inclined to think the issue is in the gearing, although it's hard to conceive of the gear ratios being that different.  I have not tried a file from a Premier loco, yet.  I'd appreciate any info from someone who knows the gear ratio or a Premier steamer vice a R-K (both single motored--dual motored R-Ks use diesel-style motors & gears).

My analytical brain was not working so good today so I Googled how to determine gear ratios with a worm gear:

 

The gear ratio of a worm gear is worked out through the following formula:

number of teeth on wormwheel

number of teeth on worm

 

The worm acts as a single toothed gear so the ratio is;

 

number of teeth on wormwheel

1

 

EXAMPLE:

If the wormwheel has 60 teeth:

60

1

 

Gear Ratio = 60:1

 

 

But then you have to count the teeth on the drive gear and somehow add in the diameter of the drivers to get distance traveled.

 

How did the real RRs do it?  Did they figure the diameters of the drivers then use the revolutions to determine the speed?

I just put a mark on the flywheel and then rotate it and watch the wheels.  When they make a complete revolution, I know what the gear ratio is.   The mark on the flywheel allows me to count revs.

Bob, that formula holds if the worm has a thread like a wood screw, with one thread that wraps around.  But I am told some worms have 2 or mote threads.
For some reason, wheels can't spin the DC motor like they did the Pulmor

I think those dual thread worm gears may be on some of the Pulmor motors.

GRJ:  You may be right.  I'll check it later today. 

 

I've seen them somewhere recently, I'm searching for that lost gray matter to see if it was in a locomotive I took apart.

RJR

 

Try this link for info on printing an accurately calculated tach strip.

 

https://sites.google.com/site/...hing-ps2-conversions

 

 

 

 

Useful page, but what do you print the strips on to make sure they stick to the flywheel?

John,

Useful page, but what do you print the strips on to make sure they stick to the flywheel?

Labels.

Hmm...  I'm having a hard time believing standard gummed labels will stick all that well.  Is that a proven medium for this use?  I have a Dymo labeler, but I'm thinking the labels are too short.  I also have the gummed shipping labels, two to a page, those would work if they'd stick well enough.

 

What application do you use to actually generate the strips?  Calculating the stripe size is only the first part.

Ted, thanks for the link. (You may want to recheck some of the entries in the table, which are obviously erroneous--26" drivers???)

 

Some years ago, I upgraded a Weaver brass 0-6-0 with a 22mm flywheel.  I prepared a tach tape for that flywheel that had the same number of stripes as a standard upgrade tape.  The loco ran wild.  MTH advised me that the reader cannot handle stripes narrower than those on the 27mm standard tape.  So I chortened the 27mm tape, which means the loco runs faster than the setting, but the difference isn't enough to matter since I don't use that loco in a lashup and it's not grossly fast, as is the 736.

 

The Pulmor motor was definitely a dual thread design.  While I haven't pulled the DC motor out of the 736, I checked the DC motor I got for the #624 and it also is a dual-thread. 

 

So I would have to get about twice as many stripes on a tach tape as is standard, to get the 736 to run at a reasonable speed, and given the limits on strip width, don't know how I could.  I assume that MTH uses single thread worms on all its locos[???].

 

GRJ:  Print the tapes on Avery peel-off label material, full- or half-page size.

 

RJR..I also upgraded a Lionel T-1 (reading) with one of Timko's motors.The thing runs great however  I never considered double heading it with another MTH engine so the scale speed is off but not that much. I can't remember what tape I used, but prettty sure it was one of the ones that come with the kit. Yes as you pointed out you can make your own, if you're not tooo concerened about the scale speed I'm sure you can come up with something. Sound file..This can make a big difference..I used the CN mountain (6060) 4-8-4 file.

 

Happy with the results, the things been running fine for a few years, With no traction tires you can actually slip the drivers.(sort of)

What application do you use to generate the tapes?

GRJ:  I believe I used a scanner to adjust the size & printed in Acrobat Pro.

 

Gregg: What vintage was the Reading & was it a dual-thread worm?

 

The way this loco is acting does not make sense.  It is predictable, not erratic; just way off on speed and tends to surge at 1 or 2 mph.

 

I'm going to have to calculate the gear ratio.

I understood that a spreadsheet program is to be used.

I guess I'm not asking clearly enough.  I have numbers, what application are you generating the bar pattern with?  Are you scanning an existing tape and tinkering with that size?

As I understood it, bars are created in a spreadsheet and massaged into the proper width and printed out.  Mind you, I've never done it and am only reiterating what I think I remember.

Yes, that process that involves massaging and printing is what I'm inquiring about.

GRJ:  I put an existing tape, from the upgrade kit, into the scanner and adjusted the size, printed it into Acrobat, and printed it.  I've never tried the Excel route.

 

Also found the cause of the speed issue.  I had mounted the tender connector socket under the cab roof.  It was pressing on the tach sensor and causing it to have zero clearance; I spotted streaks on the tach tape from it.  I used some tape to hold it away from the tape and the speed was great.  Now to figure a fix to keep it from flexing--the mount is sort of loose on the motor.  I may have to order a new sensor, with the thin spacer; I have in stock from prior upgrades one with the large spacer & one with no spacer.  I hate ordering from MTH directly because of the shipping & handling charge.

 

Any Forumites out there who are techs and have these in stock for sale?

 

Gear ratio is about 8 to 8.5/1.

 

Still haven't found the coupler problem:  when the coupler is triggered, it occasionally resets the loco.  Perhaps a .02 mfd capacitor across the relay terminals (the Lionel coupler can't be used directly with PS2 because it is internally grounded) will solve this.

 

Thanks for all the ideas listed above.

 

It's tedious!!!  lol.  I have made tile floors for buildings using this technique.  It is trial and error at best, but the floors were pretty cool when finished.  Just be sure to save each iteration so that your work isn't for naught.  A spreadsheet program allows you to color rows/columns.  For a tack strip you would color alternating columns then adjust column width to dimensions needed for the tack strip.  Then print it out and cut it to the strip height and length needed.  It may take several printings to get the right combination so have some scrap paper handy to keep reusing.  Not a very succinct process, but it works.

 

P.S.  I just reread this...  you can adjust strip height by adjusting row height.  Then print a single row and cut it out.  A paper cutter comes in handy for this sort of project.

GRJ:  As I remember it, I calculated how long I wanted the strip, placed a stock tape in scanner, and set the scanner to reduce the size by a percentage equal to ratio of desired length to stock length.  Printed it out on regular paper & measured the result.  Of course it was slightly off, so I adjusted the setting & tried till I got what I wanted.  Then I printed it on Avery tape.

 

When I put it on loco, loco flew.  It was then that I contacted MTH and found stripes can't be narrower than on the 27mm tape.

 

For your sensor, what I did with my General conversion and bonded it to the side of the motor.  I found the holder didn't fit inside the small General shell.  You can position the sensor anywhere around the circumference of the motor that way.  I've recently discovered LocTite 380 BlackMax, it's really great stuff for all sorts of bonding.  Make sure you never want to take it off...

 

As far as your relay issue, one thing for sure you should do is put a snubber across the relay coil and the coupler coil!  I'd use a .1 cap across each coil, that may reduce the false triggering.

Interesting, that puts a new wrinkle on it.

Check with Chuck Sartor, that's where I got mine new tach readers:

 

http://only3rail.com/

GRJ:  On the Weaver 0-6-0, I found the sensor strap wouldn't fit the motor, so I glued it to the motor shell also.  If you're planning to convert a loco with a flywheel smaller than 27mm, I suggest using the 27mm tape and avoiding lashups.

 

Bob: Thanks for the lead.

 

I rarely run steamers MU, but I do run some of the diesels that way.

I wish there were a way to run R-K steamers double-headed.

 

I found a submini 0.1mfd capacitor in my stash.  Put it across the relay contacts and it seems to have done the job. 

 

A major issue on upgrading an old Lionel Pulmor is finding a location for the tender connector socket.  I finally glued it to the inside omf the cab, blocking the engineer's window.

 

I'm somewhat irreverent, I normally hack a hole in the shell like the ones with a tether have.

 

Noise suppression is pretty mandatory when you have contacts and coils, you'll always get an inductive kick and a nice noise spike.  That's why many relays activated by DC have a reverse diode across the coil.

No place to "hack a hole."  All of the shell is horizontal at the rear of 60-year-old Lionels. 

 

Last one I did was a 2026, and there is a nice recess right below the cab floor that is a perfect place for the hole.  It's no longer here, but here's a picture of the rear of a 2026 from the web with the slot in question.

 

So, the "no place" is conditional on the exact model.

 

Oh, the one I converted was in a lot better shape.

 

The pocket you show was on side-plate motor old Lionel locos, of which I have 4 or 5.  It was not on the worm-geared 726/736 locos.

 

If I recall, the 2026 was a side-plate motor, a 2-6-2 similar to the 224 and many others. If you upgraded that to DCS, let us know how you did it.

Not DCS, I use TMCC for old AC locomotives.  Specifically, the ERR AC Commander.

 

Like you say, you may not have the same capability with every PW locomotive.  With the 726, I'd probably do what you did.

 

GRJ: What loco is that last post a photo of?  The brush holders like that were pre-1950, but unlike the 1946 726 Berk, it doesn't say "atomic motor."

 

Edit:  On the e-mail from the forum, where the picture is it says "726" but this doesn't appear on the forum.  Interesting.

 

If this is a 726, I would place it as a 1947 or 1948.  The 1946 motor wasn't canted; the shaft was horizontal, driving a long shaft through a spur gear.  The shaft had a worm on each end, driving the front & rear drivers.  This is unlike the 1950, where only the rear drivers were axle-driven, the other drivers being driven by the side rods (which wear as a result--I really should replace them on my 736).

 

I confess I don't know all the details of PW steamers, I've been mostly focused on newer stuff with command.  Most of the old stuff I had as a kid is long gone now.

 

I got that picture from the web as I don't have one of those to take a picture of.   I see the picture here in the forum, so I don't know why you don't see it.

 

Here's what I see in the forum for the previous post.

 

GRJ:  The Forum sends an e-mail when there is a new post to a previously-viewed thread.  The e-mail with your picture shows up in Thunderbird without the photo--with just a labelled box--and the question of whether I want to "show remote content."  nUntil I click the "show remote content" query, the label on the box said "Lionel 726."  The form picture did not have the label "Lionel 726."

OK, I thought you were saying that it didn't show up in the forum, I understand the limitations of email, I use TB as well for mail.   Your statement was a little confusing.  BTW, if you hover over the picture in the forum, it pops up Lionel 726 after a second or two.