Square footage of larger train rooms

Derek, it totally depends on the purpose and long term plans.

My Run Room for Susan's South Plains Railroad (SSPRR) covers over 1600 square feet and has four distinct elevations connected with a helix-style track. The overall room size is 24 feet by 69 feet.  My purpose was playing with toy trains and accessories.  There is no way there would be time for me to deal with scenery and keep all in the Run Room running properly.  It was built to play with and share. 
With this much space I avoid crowding and can run long trains as fast as I want to.

See the Photo Tour start page with layout diagrams.

My train room is 31X16 and I wish it was 31X20.

As you know with is everything when it comes to train layouts.

Good  luck with your project!

Richard

rattler21 posted:

 How large is the layout you want to build and will it be along the wall with access to the center or free standing with access along four walls? How large is the shop space, work space and studio?  Size of space for HVAC and sink?  Toilet? TV? Microwave?  Fridge? John in Lansing, ILL

That's just it, I'm really at square one. The overall size of the building is still up in the air but will need at least 36 feet in length for three garage bays plus whatever for the train room. So in theory I'm looking at a 72 x 30 building. Again, all up in the air but I'm trying to future proof here and not have the need for something larger down the road. We are really happy where we're at house wise and unless something drastically changes for us, we plan on being here for many many years. 

I doubt we will add water to the building since we are on a well, and I'm going to want access to at least three walls in the layout room for display cases, large train signs I have, etc. 

Mine is 800 square feet and works for me!

I'm at about 900 sq feet and it works but I always wish we had more space

Derek, my basement in this old house is 26X40 a desk, a small work bench, and a ping pong table, the rest is train layout. Remember when we traded a CR engine for a bunch of track? LOL! I added a switch to the outside loop then built a yard/staging track above the washer and dryer, next another yard/staging below the layout. Go BIG, spend what you can spend, I wish I had more Like our friend Dixie N. now that's a "TRAIN ROOM" LOL! But if I had his $$$$ I could burn mine LOL! I tell my son if he & his friends ever quit playing ping pong there will be another layout expansion! 

TRAIN NERD AL

Derek

you may want to think about the style of layout you want and also the curve radius you want which would determine the space you need.

For example. Imagine a folded dogbone where you need to make two wide radius turns inside the width of the room. Using 096 as an example that's 8ft for each turn which in reality becomes 10ft each allowing for space between the track and the edge of the layout. Now add space for an aisle, say 3 ft. Your up to 23ft and this is tight. Go to 0120 track and it becomes 27ft. Use 072 and your at 19ft. And so on.

My 2-rail layout is in a space approximately 20 feet by 40 feet, and I chose to build a very simple around-the-wall system that uses large-radius curves with easements (ca. 108-inch radius) in order to be able run big articulated steam locos with a minimum of overhang. They look good and I'm happy with the "minimalist" result, although it certainly is not what most people would choose to do with a large space like this. But I like being able to walk around in the room without any impediments while I follow a train, and the maintenance is very low (single-track main with not many switches).  

If it's an outbuilding you definitely want water and a bathroom so you don't have to go back to your home to use the restroom.  

Neal Jeter 

Train Room had new home build with it as an empty post-less with 10' ceiling room roughly 26'x40' ... and that turned out to be a LOT of space to fill!

Derek: My train building is 30 x 66. I have two garage doors with a wall in between. The room left over for the layout is plenty good for me.. It still leaves room for the furnace /AC  and a small bathroom... Bob

I failed to listen to John Armstrong's advice when he said that a free standing dedicated year around train room is the most expensive RR facility per square foot period.  It is like having a second  home on your property.  In many neighborhoods a finished second building with HVAC, insulation,  multiple circuits, floor covering, finished ceiling and built in lighting will  receive a healthy tax assessment.

I built a free standing  22' X 43' over 20 years ago and lived to regret it.  Nasty in the rain and winter, you have to get fully dressed just to spend any time with the trains.   Even with  3 1/2"  of sprayed in ISO foam in the walls and 20 " of fiberglass  in the ceiling, the year round Trane HVAC running expense was noticeable.

Awhile back we moved to get a more suitable basement.  It is a "T" shaped basement 30' wide x 60' long X 8' high with two 15' X 9' arms.  Approx.  2k sq ft.   Note, no added tax or HVAC expense.  Kinda OK but it has become a time thief.  I should have built smaller.

The present RR is around the wall with a variety of peninsulas, several end of line towns, 87 turnouts,  five turntables, 1500' two rail track plus some knee high 3 rail vinyettes for the tykes.

Ranch houses usually provide more basement foot print than a comparable sq ft  two story home.

A rectangular room can feature longer runs.

Square rooms can become big on curves.

All experience driven opinion.

My basement layout is about 1750 sq. ft., including a small lounge area (sofa, coffee table with TV and mini-fridge under the benchwork).  I was able to build a layout to fill this space while I was still working (an hour an evening plus occasional bursts during days off) so it is possible.  I wish now that we'd put basement under the 4-car garage when the house was built.  That would give me another 800 sq. ft. to expand into. 

An HO friend had an outbuilding constructed specifically for his new layout.  It is 30x60 and is really nice, with a bathroom and its own heat pump for heating and cooling.  The building has been complete for a year and a half and now he says he wishes he went for 30x80 instead.

Once you've decided to do a building, making it bigger isn't much more expensive.  I'd say bigger is better!

I built a 64' X 30' building 12 years ago. It's a pole building that I basically split down the middle. I have a poured heated floor and a wood shop on the lower level then I built a deck above and have my train room upstairs. The room measures 32' X 30' minus the wall thickness and the stairway leading up. So close to 960 square feet. I put central air upstairs with auxiliary electric heat but don't really use the heat much because my heated floor below keeps the upstairs warm all winter.

I run 72" minimum curves and I'm very satisfied with the space. I have train shelves on 2 of the surrounding walls. 

I have a dedicated 20' X 40' secure,climate controlled train room on the lower level of my home. It's plenty of room for my needs. The layout and displays are still in progress and will be for years to come at the speed (Slow)I work on it.

My room is 46X26.

Three times bigger than you plan on...then add more room...

Don't forget the bar!

Derek:

You already know the answer:  It's NEVER enough space.

BUT, I will concede this:  The larger it is, the more there is to maintain.

BIGGER is NOT better.

Better is a well designed model railroad that has plausibility, purpose and offers participation for its operators.

Lastly, will NOTCH 6 interview the Crew of the Glacier Line (1300 square feet) one day?  :-)

Best Wishes! 

My train room is 900 sq ft,30 x 30 with 10 ft ceiling and six rows of display shelving all the way around.The layout is a walk around with three main lines of 096 curves and 072 to the sidings.The room has heating and power with four foot four tube flourescent fixtures.Sheetrock walls and ceilings and a bathroom.

Mikey

Derek, my train room is 1900 square feet of floor space, but I have three distinct decks, bringing the total layout square footage to approximately 2200. There is a workbench and a dispatcher's desk in that space, but lounge space will be in a separate room adjacent.

A layout of this size is a monumental task to complete. It is a project of a lifetime, literally!

This is one of my favorite shots, showing all the levels, and overall construction.

My messy workbench with a piece of the layout above it.

My dispatcher's desk. When complete, the screen to the right will have a CTC control panel.

If you'd like to know more, just visit my construction topic, by clicking on "Follow the progress" in my signature.

P.S. I could have had more space, but at the time of design, I was happy with 1900. Eighteen years later, no regrets!

Tom Tee posted:

Elliot, please provide more info about your video system.  Details of camera, feed, split screen, etc,  I need something like that.

There's really nothing special about it Tom. It is a sixteen camera security system, off the rack, from Sam's Club. The brand is Samsung, and the cameras are hardwired back to the hub. The 16 screen split is just the standard mode. I think the system is capable of other viewing options, but I've never messed with it because that one works fine for me. It really helps to have the huge screen.

Big_Boy_4005 posted:

Derek, my train room is 1900 square feet of floor space, but I have three distinct decks, bringing the total layout square footage to approximately 2200. There is a workbench and a dispatcher's desk in that space, but lounge space will be in a separate room adjacent.

A layout of this size is a monumental task to complete. It is a project of a lifetime, literally!

This is one of my favorite shots, showing all the levels, and overall construction.

My messy workbench with a piece of the layout above it.

My dispatcher's desk. When complete, the screen to the right will have a CTC control panel.

If you'd like to know more, just visit my construction topic, by clicking on "Follow the progress" in my signature.

P.S. I could have had more space, but at the time of design, I was happy with 1900. Eighteen years later, no regrets!

How many feet of track total?

Kerrigan, over 3000 feet, maybe as much as 3500 with over 300 turnouts. I'm basing that on cases of GarGraves at 150 feet per case, so 20+ cases. So much of that is yard trackage, which accounts for a density of 1.25 to 1.5 feet of track per square foot of deck.

Tom

I think I have the system (Samsung DVR all in one security system) Elliot is referring to for over a year now and everyone that sees it really likes it.

Mine came with 12 color HD color cameras expandable to 16 . Includes 2TB recorder, everything to set it up. It is a e-net viewable system if you wanted to do that.

I think is was about 8 hundred with the extra 3 year protection or so out the door cost.

I know my local Sam's still has them. I actually bought a separate 4 camera one this past year for the train room.

A heck of a train room addition.

If you want anymore inf my e-mail is in profile

Larry

PS Derek, sorry just trying to get him some info.

Derek,

I started with an approximately 2,300 Sq-Ft basement, and divided it as follows: 72 full bathroom, 84 utilities, 168 exercise room, 322 study/bedroom, 400 shop, and 1,254 (33 x 38) for the train layout. The 33 x 38 for the trains is fine, and includes a 9 x 22 area for gathering and other activities. Many times I have wished that I would have used at least part of these 198 sq-ft for the layout, but when we have 20 guests looking at the trains, I am glad it is as it is.

Alex

Larry, that does sound like the exact package I have. It only came with 12 cameras. And that price is pretty close to what I remember. Mine was actually defective right out of the box. Unfortunately, I didn't open and install it right away. I sat on it for just a few days beyond the one year mark. After a little pleading of my case, they decided to cover the repairs under warranty, and when I got it back, it worked great.

Tom, I think those screens are 55", matched pair. More Sam's specials from a couple Christmases ago.

Elliot,    Yes, I purchased the same camera system from Sam's a few years back when on sale.  Came with 12 cameras, have yet to add the other 4.  I installed for home security including inside and outside, covers it all very well.  This includes one camera overlooking the 28'x36' train room, my layout is walk around on 3 1/2 sides and 28' x 24', some sides 20'.  Good idea to add the other 4 cameras, may do so, but the 12 works great.  As you have done, I am toying with the idea of installing a smaller system for the layout and viewing the lower level once I have the upper installed.   Notch 6, yes it seems it can always be bigger, all we all attest to.  However, the bigger it is means the more needs done and the longer it can take.  For me, there are so many other projects and responsibilities to tend to with property and animals, I have not gotten to spend the time I would like on the layout.  With Winter coming I hope to be free for more progress, but that hasn't been the case either with past storms and the damages from.

Jesse        TCA  12-68275

Tom, I'm not sure, but I would think you would see things pretty well. A 3 x 4 set of images may make each one a little larger.

Jesse, I started with an 8 camera system, but quickly realized that I needed more, so I bought the 16 camera setup. I used the 8 old cameras and 8 new cameras to fill it up, leaving me with 4 new cameras. I need to get 4 more. I was thinking of mounting them on the ceiling, 2 per aisle so you could see the people and trains moving on the exposed part of the layout. Then it would be possible to broadcast it on the web.

Big_Boy_4005 posted:

A layout of this size is a monumental task to complete. It is a project of a lifetime, literally!

 

Derek:

I think everyone here is giving you good advice.  Here's some from a guy who presently has a layout under construction.

When I was a boy, like many other boys, I started with an L-shaped layout comprised of two 4x8 sheets of plywood.  I was thrilled when I was allowed to expand to three 4x8 sheets arranged in a 12' x 8' rectangle.  It meant I could deploy O72 curves.  It's probably fair to say that I worked 2-3 hours a day on that layout from ages 13-18.  My dad dismantled it for me when I was in my late 20s so he could reclaim the space.  He marveled at how much work had gone into it all.  "All those soldered connections!" was among his other observations.

I was fortunate enough to move into a house about 10 years ago that has a full-height third floor.  The 3rd floor has the same footprint as the house itself.  I took down two non-support walls and ended up with layout tables that are approximately 36 x 24'.  This is an open dog bone-shaped layout that wraps around a 4'x4' chimney, so it's not one big rectangle.

Big Boy's comment that I quoted above is spot on.  One thing that you tend to minimize in your mind when doing something like this is just how much time building a layout takes.  Oh, sure, it only takes a few hours to saw some boards and put up some benchwork, but as an adult, your time turns out to be the scarcest of scarce commodities.  I know you have two young sons.  This means you'll soon be getting to the point where you'll be spending your Saturdays at soccer games, little league games, or even just playing catch in the back yard.  You'll find yourself on the sidelines of more than one athletic event applauding your sons' hustle or playmaking skills and -- it's hard to believe -- not even thinking about trains.

About 10 years down the road, at least one of your children will propose that some of the space you've got be re-purposed for his particular passion, if it dares not to be trains.  You might also consider that you and your wife's needs/tastes might change over the next 10-15 years, and you might consider moving to a different house/neighborhood.  Whatever building you build today will need to be salable to the next guy, our you'll risk diminishing the marketability of your property.

I guess my point is, perhaps think about this in two parts.  Part one would be to build whatever layout you think you can build with the time you have available now.  Think in terms of the next 10-15 years.  If your goal is to have trains running for your sons, keep it small and focused because you won't get it completed otherwise.  Think along the lines of the lovely work that Christopher Esposito does.  (He reliably posts pictures of it almost every week in the "Weekend Photo Fun" threads.)

Part two would be to think about the time period during or after your sons are in high school.  By that point you'll know whether they're interested enough in trains to spend as much time on them as you do.  It might be quite a good teenage boy project to work together to build a mammoth layout.  Then you could continue to work on it after they're starting their lives when you'll find that you have much more time available.

One final factor you should consider is cost.  It should be obvious -- but somehow the size of a grand layout covers one's eyes with stardust.  A layout that's 3-4 times the size of a simple 8x8 rectangle will actually cost 3-4 times as much to build.  I.e., Surprise!  There are no economies of scale!  The wood for the benchwork is relatively reasonable but, as just one example, I calculated how much copper wire I'd need to build my large layout, and I found that I was staring at a bill for $700.  And $3,300 for track.  I'm building with tubular track and the cost of Moondog rubber ties -- which I got a pretty good deal on -- also set me back $750 or so for the 5,000 that I "needed".  I could go on, but I'm sure you get the point.  And all of what I described is just to place the track on the table and wire it.  Those costs are before I get to buildings, accessories, etc.  Those Korber kits at $80 a throw add up...

So, my advice would be to first consider what your life offers you in terms of the time you currently have available, the time you'd like to spend with your children, and what your mid- to long-term plans might be for your home.  If you keep it relatively simple now, you can involve the kids every step of the way and then tear it down later and really go for it with them as active participants.  

HTH.

Steven J. Serenska

Thank you all for the kind and well thought out replies. There have been some great posts and emails and what I think I have figured out is that I'm not ready to really do anything yet. We already have a nice sized layout in the basement with trains running. That's a pretty big deal! There are also ways to improve that layout that would get us through a few more years without needing to do anything super drastic. Many of the replies have helped me to start focusing on the fact that we just may not be ready for something this big yet. At 32 almost 33 years of age there is a lot going on and I think Steven is right that I may not have a picture of the future for a few more years. 

There is some degree of relief that comes from realizing that I don't have to do ANYTHING for the moment. I can sit back and come up with a good plan over time. I hope if anyone else is thinking about the same kind of plans they can read through this and it helps them figure it out as well. 

My layout is 23x20. I wish it was about 30x25. It would allow for more larger walkways and sitting area in between the islands etc,  hope that helps some. 

Serenska posted:

Big_Boy_4005 posted:

A layout of this size is a monumental task to complete. It is a project of a lifetime, literally!

 

Derek:

I think everyone here is giving you good advice.  Here's some from a guy who presently has a layout under construction.

When I was a boy, like many other boys, I started with an L-shaped layout comprised of two 4x8 sheets of plywood.  I was thrilled when I was allowed to expand to three 4x8 sheets arranged in a 12' x 8' rectangle.  It meant I could deploy O72 curves.  It's probably fair to say that I worked 2-3 hours a day on that layout from ages 13-18.  My dad dismantled it for me when I was in my late 20s so he could reclaim the space.  He marveled at how much work had gone into it all.  "All those soldered connections!" was among his other observations.

I was fortunate enough to move into a house about 10 years ago that has a full-height third floor.  The 3rd floor has the same footprint as the house itself.  I took down two non-support walls and ended up with layout tables that are approximately 36 x 24'.  This is an open dog bone-shaped layout that wraps around a 4'x4' chimney, so it's not one big rectangle.

Big Boy's comment that I quoted above is spot on.  One thing that you tend to minimize in your mind when doing something like this is just how much time building a layout takes.  Oh, sure, it only takes a few hours to saw some boards and put up some benchwork, but as an adult, your time turns out to be the scarcest of scarce commodities.  I know you have two young sons.  This means you'll soon be getting to the point where you'll be spending your Saturdays at soccer games, little league games, or even just playing catch in the back yard.  You'll find yourself on the sidelines of more than one athletic event applauding your sons' hustle or playmaking skills and -- it's hard to believe -- not even thinking about trains.

About 10 years down the road, at least one of your children will propose that some of the space you've got be re-purposed for his particular passion, if it dares not to be trains.  You might also consider that you and your wife's needs/tastes might change over the next 10-15 years, and you might consider moving to a different house/neighborhood.  Whatever building you build today will need to be salable to the next guy, our you'll risk diminishing the marketability of your property.

I guess my point is, perhaps think about this in two parts.  Part one would be to build whatever layout you think you can build with the time you have available now.  Think in terms of the next 10-15 years.  If your goal is to have trains running for your sons, keep it small and focused because you won't get it completed otherwise.  Think along the lines of the lovely work that Christopher Esposito does.  (He reliably posts pictures of it almost every week in the "Weekend Photo Fun" threads.)

Part two would be to think about the time period during or after your sons are in high school.  By that point you'll know whether they're interested enough in trains to spend as much time on them as you do.  It might be quite a good teenage boy project to work together to build a mammoth layout.  Then you could continue to work on it after they're starting their lives when you'll find that you have much more time available.

One final factor you should consider is cost.  It should be obvious -- but somehow the size of a grand layout covers one's eyes with stardust.  A layout that's 3-4 times the size of a simple 8x8 rectangle will actually cost 3-4 times as much to build.  I.e., Surprise!  There are no economies of scale!  The wood for the benchwork is relatively reasonable but, as just one example, I calculated how much copper wire I'd need to build my large layout, and I found that I was staring at a bill for $700.  And $3,300 for track.  I'm building with tubular track and the cost of Moondog rubber ties -- which I got a pretty good deal on -- also set me back $750 or so for the 5,000 that I "needed".  I could go on, but I'm sure you get the point.  And all of what I described is just to place the track on the table and wire it.  Those costs are before I get to buildings, accessories, etc.  Those Korber kits at $80 a throw add up...

So, my advice would be to first consider what your life offers you in terms of the time you currently have available, the time you'd like to spend with your children, and what your mid- to long-term plans might be for your home.  If you keep it relatively simple now, you can involve the kids every step of the way and then tear it down later and really go for it with them as active participants.  

HTH.

Steven J. Serenska

 

Steven,

That was some of the best advice I've ever seen given on this forum.  I couldn't agree more with your thought process.

I find myself at a crossroads in my hobby. I've started and stopped many different scales, but I'm looking at what it will take to finish our basement and build a roughly 34x16 L shaped 3RS layout. My ballpark tally has me in the $50k range including acquisition of a new roster since I sold much of it off previously. I think it is wise to look down the road at the cost, effort, and viability of large projects like this. For me, I'm not sure if I'm willing to commit to it for a few reasons. 

People should absolutely ask themselves those hard questions and be resolute in their answers before proceeding.

I may have missed this point in the above discussion but just in case I didn't.  

It is not the size of a RR but the complexity that causes a RR to require years and years to build.

Ed

Derek....I learned a lot from building my current layout.  The best thing I learned is that sometimes a big layout is too big!  Just getting the detail done can take YEARS for the average person who has daily non-hobby responsibilities.  I considered building a separate structure to house the layout but soon found...like was stated in a post above...that the tax man can consider it as another house.  So you may want to consider either using space you currently have available OR if you add on, do so directly as a "bonus room".  You may also want to consider an inverter heating and cooling unit so that you can control your utility bills.  Inverter units are very energy efficient.  The 18,000 BTU unit I put in my train room draws about 5 amps at full capacity...not bad!!

When we added a garage to the old church which we converted into our home, I decided to add a second story above the 4 car garage.  We used engineered floor and ceiling supports so that there are no columns in the garage or in the train room above.  The garage ceiling joists are 18" ( which support the train room floor above ) and the train room ceiling joists are 16".  All joists are 16" on center.  The walls are 6".  All walls as well as the floor and ceiling are filled with insulation to make the room as energy stingy as possible.  The train room stairway entrance is such that it allowed me to have two tracks of mainlines against the wall in the stairway area so I lost no running space for the longest runs.  The room itself is about 30x40 with a ceiling height of 11 feet.  By having multiple levels, the loss of space by the isles is minimal so the layout actually has almost 1500 square feet of space.  I wanted to have a urban theme which normally would have taken up much of the track space so I designed the main city to span over some of the mainlines so as not to interfere with the track plan.

The bottom line....you will likely want to decide what kind of theme and layout you want, then plan toward that goal.  Plan a layout that you can build over a reasonable time frame just in case you don't have a lot of help.  It can be done and I know you well enough that you will do a great job when the time comes! 

Alan