Standard Railroad of the World...For A Reason!

Two of my favorite.  I shot the one at 30th Street station yard in the late '70s.  The one with Raymond Lowey was a bit before my time.  The third photo is perhaps the most classic of all the GG1 paint schemes.

couldn't agree more Tom.

M1b 6792 about 20 minutes from me in mingo Junction in '55

N2sa 7181 Grand Rapids '38

Q2 6199 Crestline '48

Big Swoose in Chicago '45

T1 5547 Pittsburgh '49

and to appease the masses who prefer no Belpaire....

J1 6448 Blairsville '53

and Hippo 4576 Allegheny,Pa '36

and some of the best looking Cabin Cars....

almost forgot....

Let's not forget the importance of the PRR tunnels to Manhattan...work on the design began in 1902, the tunnels are still in use today.

Tom

To each his own.  I and other posters on that thread don't begrudge the high-headlight fans, or fans of other repeated prototypes, all the duplicates they can get on their credit cards, we would just like a little variety, and somebody to throw us a bone.

colorado hirailer posted:

To each his own.  I and other posters on that thread don't begrudge the high-headlight fans, or fans of other repeated prototypes, all the duplicates they can get on their credit cards, we would just like a little variety, and somebody to throw us a bone.

We are all inclusive over here!

Tom

Great photos of a great RR, of which there are many. 

I have no gripe with Pennsylvania Railroad. I think the railroad can stand on its own and its record needs no defense. Great pics everyone. 

colorado hirailer posted:

To each his own.  I and other posters on that thread don't begrudge the high-headlight fans, or fans of other repeated prototypes, all the duplicates they can get on their credit cards, we would just like a little variety, and somebody to throw us a bone.

99.9% of my trains are used, the majority were made before I was born, so I have no idea of dealing with a manufacturer of current production. Have those wanting something different voiced this to the manufacturer's? Money talks...so if enough consumers say "we won't buy anymore of your product until we see something different"

Is her hair Tuscan Red ........  

I'll offer up the attached photo of a PRR N5 cabin.  It is owned by a friend of my brother-in-law in central PA who is restoring it to serve as his "man cave".

Curt

juniata guy posted:

I'll offer up the attached photo of a PRR N5 cabin.  It is owned by a friend of my brother-in-law in central PA who is restoring it to serve as his "man cave".

Curt

Curt--Very nice! If he wants to adopt me, I have a Pennsy caboose/cabin car stove. 

Tom

Kelly Anderson posted:

As I understand it, the PRR was the "Standard Railroad of the World", simply because every other railroad was a "Superior Railroad of the World" and they took one look and wouldn't let PRR into the club!

Exactly!

PRR = standard.

All other railroads = Deluxe.

EBT Jim posted:

Is her hair Tuscan Red ........  

 

I'm not interested in her hair.....LOL

Many PRR relics are still out there, the rural branch lines all had a certain character.
This old girder bridge on stone abutments has been abandoned for at least 35 years, but the branch which once ran here was electrified for passenger trains for part of its life.
A short stub of this branch still occasionally sees a working PRR steamer.
Where am I ???

Williams Grove, Pa.?

Tom

Good evening, I think most of you can say what you want, but most other railroads in the heyday did as the Pennsy did or at least try to keep pace or a step ahead.

MNCW posted:

Williams Grove, Pa.?

Tom

 

Correctamundo!!!

Thanks for playing...

What do I win, a big cash prize? 

 Tom 

I know there's a debate over the tuscan red locomotives, but it's a favourite of mine, like this pic from this here forum: 

https://ogrforum.com/t...and-mth-k4s-compared

Hot Water posted:

Kelly Anderson posted:

As I understand it, the PRR was the "Standard Railroad of the World", simply because every other railroad was a "Superior Railroad of the World" and they took one look and wouldn't let PRR into the club!

Exactly!

PRR = standard.

All other railroads = Deluxe.

Whoa! Are both of you "non-believers" really serious? 

Just in case, maybe there is some history needed. In its heyday, most other railroads were like branch lines to the Pennsy in terms of locomotive development, number of locomotives, tonnage, engineering, track miles, etc. 

I don't believe any railroad company built so many stations, employed so many workers and had as much trackage. At its peak, it was the Apple Computer of its day, as it was the largest publicly traded corporation. To this day, it holds the record for longest continuous dividend payout, paid out in excess of 100 years. 

Engineering: Horseshoe Curve, North River/Hudson River & East River Tunnels, Northeast Corridor electrification. These projects were bankrolled by the railroad/stockholders. What other railroad can match the complexity, cost and continued usage of all of these projects?

Locomotives: What other railroad had the longevity of the GG1?

No charge for the history lesson...

Tom

This isn't meant to denigrate other RRs because there were/are a lot of good ones but travel along the NS main line between  Rochester/New Brighton, Pa. in Beaver Co. and Altoona.  Look at how much of the infrastructure goes back to the  Pennsy days.

And that infrastructure is still making money for Amtrak and whoever else uses it.

At its peak, the Pennsy had a bigger operating budget than the United States government and a workforce of 250,000 people. 

and for modelers, the railroad had a variety of steam and diesel loco's from a multitude of builders including their own shops.  The real question is not what loco models they had but what loco models they DIDN'T have during thier time!

I thought the PRR was the "standard" because they had system wide standards of building and doing things, and had a system standard earlier than others.

And maybe it came up with such standards because it had to grow up fast.  The NYP-Philly-PIT-CHI route went right through the coal and steal belts of the US.  That is, the core of America's Industrial Revolution seems to have occurred along that main line corridor.

Hot Water posted:

Kelly Anderson posted:

As I understand it, the PRR was the "Standard Railroad of the World", simply because every other railroad was a "Superior Railroad of the World" and they took one look and wouldn't let PRR into the club!

Exactly!

PRR = standard.

All other railroads = Deluxe.

Hmm how is this not Deluxe or superior? No other railroad invested in high speed passenger service like the Pennsylvania railroad!

J Daddy posted:

Hot Water posted:

Kelly Anderson posted:

As I understand it, the PRR was the "Standard Railroad of the World", simply because every other railroad was a "Superior Railroad of the World" and they took one look and wouldn't let PRR into the club!

Exactly!

PRR = standard.

All other railroads = Deluxe.

Hmm how is this not Deluxe or superior?

Maybe because it/they were NOT SUCCESSFUL!

No other railroad invested in high speed passenger service like the Pennsylvania railroad!

So the New York Central, the Union Pacific, and the Santa Fe railroads were all chopped liver?????

Hot Water posted:

J Daddy posted

Hmm how is this not Deluxe or superior?

Maybe because it/they were NOT SUCCESSFUL!

No other railroad invested in high speed passenger service like the Pennsylvania railroad!

So the New York Central, the Union Pacific, and the Santa Fe railroads were all chopped liver?????

 

Last that I looked, the New York Central no longer exists and the same for Sante Fe. Are they more "successful" to you, somehow? If you can argue the Sante Fe exists within BNSF, one can argue the Pennsy exists within Norfolk Southern. 

We started this about the Pennsy, if you don't like the Pennsy why bother to post and what is with all the hostility?

Hot Water posted:

J Daddy posted:

Hot Water posted:

Kelly Anderson posted:

As I understand it, the PRR was the "Standard Railroad of the World", simply because every other railroad was a "Superior Railroad of the World" and they took one look and wouldn't let PRR into the club!

Exactly!

PRR = standard.

All other railroads = Deluxe.

Hmm how is this not Deluxe or superior?

Maybe because it/they were NOT SUCCESSFUL!

No other railroad invested in high speed passenger service like the Pennsylvania railroad!

So the New York Central, the Union Pacific, and the Santa Fe railroads were all chopped liver?????

 

NOT SUCCESSFUL?!!! Better check your books... They were used allot longer on the western side of the PRR than most experimental equipment.

So the New York Central, the Union Pacific, and the Santa Fe railroads were all chopped liver?????

Did these railroads EVER invest in high speed experimental passenger steam engines?

BTW - good morning to you sir...

J Daddy posted:

Hot Water posted:

J Daddy posted:

Hot Water posted:

Kelly Anderson posted:

As I understand it, the PRR was the "Standard Railroad of the World", simply because every other railroad was a "Superior Railroad of the World" and they took one look and wouldn't let PRR into the club!

Exactly!

PRR = standard.

All other railroads = Deluxe.

Hmm how is this not Deluxe or superior?

Maybe because it/they were NOT SUCCESSFUL!

No other railroad invested in high speed passenger service like the Pennsylvania railroad!

So the New York Central, the Union Pacific, and the Santa Fe railroads were all chopped liver?????

 

NOT SUCCESSFUL?!!! Better check your books... They were used allot longer on the western side of the PRR than most experimental equipment.

I don't need to "check books" to know that the PRR had ONLY ONE of those 6-4-4-6 locomotives, and IT was not very successful. 

So the New York Central, the Union Pacific, and the Santa Fe railroads were all chopped liver?????

Did these railroads EVER invest in high speed experimental passenger steam engines?

Well, yes all three of those railroads DID "invest" in high speed passenger locomotives. The NYC had lots of roller bearing equipped 4-6-4s and 4-8-4s, that would operate at speeds above 90 MPH for hours at a time. Both the Santa Fe and the UP had EXTREMELY successful 4-8-4s, that could maintain 100+ MPH for hours also. None of those 4-8-4s were "experimental", but were highly developed, duplicated, and successful.

Also, for what it's worth, the PRR tested an N&W J Class 4-8-4, and found it not to their liking. The age old "Not invented here." syndrome doomed the 4-8-4 wheel arrangement on the PRR. 

 

MNCW posted

Last that I looked, the New York Central no longer exists and the same for Sante Fe. Are they more "successful" to you, somehow? If you can argue the Sante Fe exists within BNSF, one can argue the Pennsy exists within Norfolk Southern.

The NYC went down in the Penn Central debacle, the largest corporate bankruptcy in history to that time. 

The Santa Fe was far more successful.  Their shareholders received valuable BNSF stock for their AT&SF shares.  If they held onto BNSF those shares were in tern exchanged for very valuable Berkshire Hathaway stock.  Santa Fe was a good investment.  What would you have today for investing in the PRR in 1960?  The Santa Fe was certainly the more successful investment.

Portions of the PRR route exist within the NS today.  But neither the NS or N&W paid PRR shareholders to get them. 

Interestingly, large portions of the PRR are no longer making money for anyone.  Huge sums went from the pockets of Pennsy investors into infrastructure that is not wanted by any for profit carrier today.  The same can not be said for the routes of the AT&SF, UP, etc.

Watching the PRR in its heyday would have been a great spectacle.  But, as Kelly Anderson has pointed out, from a motive power perspective the PRR stumbled after 1920 and the errors compounded after that.  When combined with a moribund corporate culture, massive changes in transportation technology and oppressive federal regulations the last decades of the PRR can be hard to watch.

MNCW posted:

Hot Water posted:

J Daddy posted

Hmm how is this not Deluxe or superior?

Maybe because it/they were NOT SUCCESSFUL!

No other railroad invested in high speed passenger service like the Pennsylvania railroad!

So the New York Central, the Union Pacific, and the Santa Fe railroads were all chopped liver?????

 

Last that I looked, the New York Central no longer exists and the same for Sante Fe.

How does the PRR fit into that argument?

Are they more "successful" to you, somehow? If you can argue the Sante Fe exists within BNSF, one can argue the Pennsy exists within Norfolk Southern. 

We started this about the Pennsy, if you don't like the Pennsy why bother to post and what is with all the hostility?

Never said I didn't like the PRR, in fact my father and his father worked for the PRR, prior to WWII! My "argument" is towards their steam power in the modern era, i.e. post 1930. The PRR was no longer really progressive with the "Super Power era", and many of their main line steam locomotives didn't even have feed water heating systems, as just one example. The absolute best steam locomotive the PRR EVER had, the J1 Class 2-10-4, was someone else's design!

Hot Water posted:

J Daddy posted:

Hot Water posted:

J Daddy posted:

Hot Water posted:

Kelly Anderson posted:

As I understand it, the PRR was the "Standard Railroad of the World", simply because every other railroad was a "Superior Railroad of the World" and they took one look and wouldn't let PRR into the club!

Exactly!

PRR = standard.

All other railroads = Deluxe.

Hmm how is this not Deluxe or superior?

Maybe because it/they were NOT SUCCESSFUL!

No other railroad invested in high speed passenger service like the Pennsylvania railroad!

So the New York Central, the Union Pacific, and the Santa Fe railroads were all chopped liver?????

 

NOT SUCCESSFUL?!!! Better check your books... They were used allot longer on the western side of the PRR than most experimental equipment.

I don't need to "check books" to know that the PRR had ONLY ONE of those 6-4-4-6 locomotives, and IT was not very successful. 

So the New York Central, the Union Pacific, and the Santa Fe railroads were all chopped liver?????

Did these railroads EVER invest in high speed experimental passenger steam engines?

Well, yes all three of those railroads DID "invest" in high speed passenger locomotives. The NYC had lots of roller bearing equipped 4-6-4s and 4-8-4s, that would operate at speeds above 90 MPH for hours at a time. Both the Santa Fe and the UP had EXTREMELY successful 4-8-4s, that could maintain 100+ MPH for hours also. None of those 4-8-4s were "experimental", but were highly developed, duplicated, and successful.

Also, for what it's worth, the PRR tested an N&W J Class 4-8-4, and found it not to their liking. The age old "Not invented here." syndrome doomed the 4-8-4 wheel arrangement on the PRR. 

 

 

Figures- so the Northern Pacific Railroad will not receive credit for the development of the modern 4-8-4 Northern with Timken roller bearings it will go to the U.P.?

The S1 Duplex was ahead of its time... just not properly executed for service...

J Daddy posted:

Figures- so the Northern Pacific Railroad will not receive credit for the development of the modern 4-8-4 Northern with Timken roller bearings it will go to the U.P.?

You changed the parameters. Yes, the NP did purchase the first 4-8-4 locomotives, however the NP was no way a "high speed" passenger railroad! Also, the NP was NOT the first railroad to purchase Timken or Hyatt roller bearings.

The S1 Duplex was ahead of its time... just not properly executed for service...

Sure.

Railroading is and was a lot more than  high speed passenger service. The decline of the PRR was in part due to the decline of the eastern industrial base. The western RRs profited by bringing alll that cheap junk in to the US from the Pacific-including toy trains. If you don't like the PRR go elsewhere.

Hot Water posted:

J Daddy posted:

Figures- so the Northern Pacific Railroad will not receive credit for the development of the modern 4-8-4 Northern with Timken roller bearings it will go to the U.P.?

You changed the parameters. Yes, the NP did purchase the first 4-8-4 locomotives, however the NP was no way a "high speed" passenger railroad! Also, the NP was NOT the first railroad to purchase Timken or Hyatt roller bearings.

The S1 Duplex was ahead of its time... just not properly executed for service...

Sure.

 

No, the point was stated that U.P. was a leader in high speed passenger service, when in fact they were never a true developer of these high speed designs... they road off the backs of other railroads that spent engineering and design money in years previous...

No the NP was not the first, but it did purchase and operate the first Northern 2626 which used development data from their railroad to refine the roller bearing design.

Well summed up Jim.  

Back to the topic...here is a beauty! 

Tom