steam engine headlights

Think the engineer had a manual on/off/dim switch for his head and back-up lights, on a steam locomotive.  Lower tech era.

Headlights were and still are manually controlled by the engineer.  

Depending on the railroad, the Engineer controls the head light as well as the back-up light (on the rear of the tender). However, on later Southern Pacific steam locomotives the Fireman had control of both the Head light AND the Mars Light.

But, to answer your direct question, NO, the head light does NOT "automatically" change just because the locomotive (no mater whether steam, electric, or diesel) goes into reverse.

Let me rephrase my question slightly - the question is whether the headlight was commonly turned off (by whomever) when running in reverse during switching operations or simply left on.

The headlight (or backup light) must be turned on in the direction of travel.

I don't know about switch engines, but there is no way for us to have our headlight and backup light both on at the same time--the lights are controlled by a center-off toggle switch.

There was no absolute rule about when headlights were turned on or off.  In fact, if you study some older pictures of steam engines in operation, on main line, on branches or even yards, no light appeared at all.  (Them headlights must have been expensive to run!)  But, as time went on and we became more safety conscious, the use of headlights became virtually universal , night and day and in all kinds of service.

Quite a few railroads had headlights that could be dimmed by the engineer.  This was generally used when the engine was running in the opposite direction of the engine, also used to avoid blinding the engineer of an oncoming on a double track section of track.  The point of all of this is that the control of the headlight ( and other lights as well), was pretty much the responsibility of the engineer.  No "automatic" light controls.

Paul Fischer

Our one steam locomotive equipped with electric lights also has the center off switch like Steve described above.  That being said, it was only upgraded to electric lights about 15 years ago, so where the switch came from I couldn't say.  The options are either full bright or dim front, off, or full bright or dim rear.  I feel like certain later locomotives may have had a separate switch for each, but that probably depended on the railroad.

fisch330 posted:

....  In fact, if you study some older pictures of steam engines in operation, on main line, on branches or even yards, no light appeared at all.  (Them headlights must have been expensive to run!) ....

power had to come from somewhere and it wasn't a battery...

turbo generators need steam pressure to operate.  not sure if this was a consideration, but they do produce an annoying whine when running under load.

fisch330 posted:

Quite a few railroads had headlights that could be dimmed by the engineer.  This was generally used when the engine was running in the opposite direction of the engine, ...

 another "feature" of these generators was that they did not output a tremendous amount of power.  dimming the headlight while running in reverse might have had a desirable effect in keeping total power consumption down.

Headlights were required by operating rules.  Here are a few quotes from a 1956 NYC rule book.

"The headlight will be displayed on the leqading end of every train and engine by day and by night.... It must be extinguished when a train turns out to meet another and has stopped clear of main track..."

"Yard engines will display dimmed headlight on each end  by day and by night."

"The rear of a train will be identified by marker lights, one on each side..."

So to, uhh, recap - what has been interesting about the responses to the question of whether steam engines running in reverse did so with the (forward-facing) headlight on or off is that no one has cited any 'rules' about whether that light needed to be on or off when in reverse (as in switching).  I say interesting because elsewhere on this forum (perhaps not under 'real railroads') there was a longish discussion about marker lights and classification lights and when they showed what color (or none at all) citing something called GCOR (don't recall what the initials stand for).  You'da thought if there were somewhat complicated rules for the marker and class lights that headlight operation would have had something similar...

To go back to my original post with my less than clear question - the question itself occurred to me as I was considering whether to use track power for the headlight on my Flyer steam loco (in which case it would always be on when the track is powered) or to take advantage of the directional lighting output from the new Dallee board I installed as part of upgrading my old open frame motor to a can motor.  I realized that even though I grew up at the end of the age of steam - at least on the UP - I couldn't recall whether the real steam locos kept their headlights on even while in reverse.  Right now the LED headlight is wired up to track power -- so far I haven't heard enough of a definitive answer to consider rewiring to use the directional lighting output.

richs09 posted:

So to, uhh, recap - what has been interesting about the responses to the question of whether steam engines running in reverse did so with the (forward-facing) headlight on or off is that no one has cited any 'rules' about whether that light needed to be on or off when in reverse (as in switching).  I say interesting because elsewhere on this forum (perhaps not under 'real railroads') there was a longish discussion about marker lights and classification lights and when they showed what color (or none at all) citing something called GCOR (don't recall what the initials stand for).  You'da thought if there were somewhat complicated rules for the marker and class lights that headlight operation would have had something similar...

To go back to my original post with my less than clear question - the question itself occurred to me as I was considering whether to use track power for the headlight on my Flyer steam loco (in which case it would always be on when the track is powered) or to take advantage of the directional lighting output from the new Dallee board I installed as part of upgrading my old open frame motor to a can motor.  I realized that even though I grew up at the end of the age of steam - at least on the UP - I couldn't recall whether the real steam locos kept their headlights on even while in reverse.  Right now the LED headlight is wired up to track power -- so far I haven't heard enough of a definitive answer to consider rewiring to use the directional lighting output.

OK, lets go over this again. The vast majority of steam locomotive headlight control switches by Pyle National, were "center off". Thus, when the Engineer (or Fireman in the case of the SP) desired to "turn on the back-up light", he had to move the lever to off and then to "rear", which shut off the head light, when backing up. Is THAT clearer to you?

got it - thanks

overlandflyer posted:

not sure if this was a consideration, but they do produce an annoying whine when running under load.

another "feature" of these generators was that they did not output a tremendous amount of power.  dimming the headlight while running in reverse might have had a desirable effect in keeping total power consumption down. 

That "whine" sounds awesome to me.

Also, while the turbo does use steam, it's pretty negligible.

mlaughlinnyc posted:

Headlights were required by operating rules.  Here are a few quotes from a 1956 NYC rule book.

"The headlight will be displayed on the leqading end of every train and engine by day and by night.... It must be extinguished when a train turns out to meet another and has stopped clear of main track..."

"Yard engines will display dimmed headlight on each end  by day and by night."

"The rear of a train will be identified by marker lights, one on each side..."

 

Yard engines will display dimmed headlight on each end  by day and by night."

  I'm a little confused.  From what's been posted  how is this possible?     There must be different  types of light switches that would allow both head and rear headlight to be lighted at the same time.

>>if you study some older pictures of steam engines in operation, on main line, on branches or even yards, no light appeared at all. 

We "Old Guys" can recall during steam fantrips back in the 50's and 60's, having photo line members yelling to kill the headlight, for a "natural" daylight appearance.

Yard engines will display dimmed headlight on each end  by day and by night."  I'm a little confused.  From what's been posted  how is this possible?     There must be different  types of light switches that would allow both head and rear headlight to be lighted at the same time.

The steam and early diesel (1939 SW1) headlight switches I've worked with had a 5 position knife switch mounted on the cab side wall near the top front corner of the side window.
1. The bottom (centered) position was DIM.
2. Forward of that was a MEDium and a BRIGHT position for the front headlight.
3. Aft of the bottom center DIM position was a MEDium and a BRIGHT position for the reverse headlight.
4. On a separate control panel were several push-pull switches. One of those switches was to turn the front headlight on/off and another one was to turn the rear headlight on/off. Thus you could independently turn the front and rear headlights on/off. But the multiposition knife switch meant that only ONE headlight at a time could be brighter than DIM.
In photo below you can see the multiposition headlights switch with its handle in the down (center) DIM position and the push-pull electric panel that has the front and rear headlights on/off switches. Forty-nine years after this photo I am not sure but I think the other push-pull switches on that panel were Numberboard lights, Class Lights, and cab light. Sorry the labels are all unreadable.

smd4 posted:

overlandflyer posted:

not sure if this was a consideration, but they do produce an annoying whine when running under load.

another "feature" of these generators was that they did not output a tremendous amount of power.  dimming the headlight while running in reverse might have had a desirable effect in keeping total power consumption down. 

That "whine" sounds awesome to me.

Also, while the turbo does use steam, it's pretty negligible.

Keeping that power consumption down was not a consideration in the steam days.  The generator used readily available steam from the boiler.  The electricity generated wouldn't have affected the thousandths decimal place of the fuel and waer consumption.

mlaughlinnyc posted:

smd4 posted:

overlandflyer posted:

not sure if this was a consideration, but they do produce an annoying whine when running under load.

another "feature" of these generators was that they did not output a tremendous amount of power.  dimming the headlight while running in reverse might have had a desirable effect in keeping total power consumption down. 

That "whine" sounds awesome to me.

Also, while the turbo does use steam, it's pretty negligible.

Keeping that power consumption down was not a consideration in the steam days.  The generator used readily available steam from the boiler.  The electricity generated wouldn't have affected the thousandths decimal place of the fuel and waer consumption.

the power i am talking about is electrical power, not available steam pressure.  when NKP added a radio to the electrical load, they had to install a third generator.  the other two had to supply power for all the lighting.

overlandflyer posted:

mlaughlinnyc posted:

smd4 posted:

overlandflyer posted:

not sure if this was a consideration, but they do produce an annoying whine when running under load.

another "feature" of these generators was that they did not output a tremendous amount of power.  dimming the headlight while running in reverse might have had a desirable effect in keeping total power consumption down. 

That "whine" sounds awesome to me.

Also, while the turbo does use steam, it's pretty negligible.

Keeping that power consumption down was not a consideration in the steam days.  The generator used readily available steam from the boiler.  The electricity generated wouldn't have affected the thousandths decimal place of the fuel and waer consumption.

the power i am talking about is electrical power, not available steam pressure.  when NKP added a radio to the electrical load, they had to install a third generator.  the other two had to supply power for all the lighting.

You might research that statement a bit further. The reason for the first two generators was different voltage requirements for the cab lights and headlight, and another voltage for the Mars Signal Light. The early radios, used a different voltage yet. Along the same lines was the Southern Pacific GS-4 class locomotives, being equipped with three generators; one voltage supply for the cab & head lights, another voltage for the Mars Signal Light, and a third different voltage supply for the electro-pneumatic train brake system.

For additional electric power load, all at the same voltage, just one larger generator would have been used.

As I recall, Jersey Central Camelbacks had an auxiliary generator mounted on the back of the tender to provide power for passenger car lighting.  Was that to save money on equipping each car with batteries ?

For that to make sense, you have to believe either that Pacifics and other locomotives had genrators for passenger cars or that the CNJ had to keep track of two kinds of commuter cars in the same service.  Also that locomotives had to be matched to car sets.  I find these very implausible.

Hot Water posted:

overlandflyer posted:

mlaughlinnyc posted:

smd4 posted:

overlandflyer posted:

.... another "feature" of these generators was that they did not output a tremendous amount of power.  dimming the headlight while running in reverse might have had a desirable effect in keeping total power consumption down. 

That "whine" sounds awesome to me.

Also, while the turbo does use steam, it's pretty negligible.

Keeping that power consumption down was not a consideration in the steam days.  The generator used readily available steam from the boiler.  The electricity generated wouldn't have affected the thousandths decimal place of the fuel and waer consumption.

the power i am talking about is electrical power, not available steam pressure.  when NKP added a radio to the electrical load, they had to install a third generator.  the other two had to supply power for all the lighting.

You might research that statement a bit further. ...

done!

the primary generator on NKP Berkshires was a Pyle National MO-6 rated at 800w, 32 volts.  the second generator was added to support the Mars light (500W, also at 32V) and a third a/c alternator was added (Pyle-National type K2TA-5) outputting 117VAC at 500 watts to support the radio which makes sense seeing any radio of that era would require multiple internal voltages for tube filaments, IF amps, finals, etc. (which would be easy with an internal transformer inside the radio working with 117 vac).

so while i am not in disagreement that the various generators outputs eventually produced different voltages (though seeing the device ratings, those voltages were more likely regulated external to the generators), multiple generators were installed primarily to meet the total output power requirements.  i could see how turning on a full bright tender light with the headlight at full brightness and also supporting the class lights, number boards and cab lighting at night could well exceed the 800W rated primary generator.

cheers...gary

Kent Loudon posted:

As I recall, Jersey Central Camelbacks had an auxiliary generator mounted on the back of the tender to provide power for passenger car lighting.  Was that to save money on equipping each car with batteries ?

Yes. Jersey Central commuter trains didn't travel far or fast enough to keep batteries charged. A Head End Train Lighting Pyle-National 125-watt set was placed atop a tender. Notice that this locomotive had a rear pilot for bi-directional operation.

ReadingFan posted:

Kent Loudon posted:

As I recall, Jersey Central Camelbacks had an auxiliary generator mounted on the back of the tender to provide power for passenger car lighting.  Was that to save money on equipping each car with batteries ?

Yes. Jersey Central commuter trains didn't travel far or fast enough to keep batteries charged. A Head End Train Lighting Pyle-National 125-watt set was placed atop a tender. Notice that this locomotive had a rear pilot for bi-directional operation.

 

i wonder if  "Head End Train Lighting" refers to the railway definition of "head end" cars... baggage, mail, dorm, etc. cars.  frankly, 125 watts isn't a lot of power.

Operating rules require that, on switch engines, the headlight be displayed on both ends, and may be dimmed on the end coupled to cars.

However, actual practice has typically been that a dim headlight is used on both ends of light switch engines, and extinguished instead of filmed on the end coupled to cars.  There is little else that is as useless as a burning headlight shining on the end of a car.  A bright headlight is rarely used within yards, usually only when it is needed in order to illuminate something some distance away, and then only briefly, being switched back to dim as soon as conditions allow.  Intelligent headlight control is one mark of a competent Locomotive Engineer.

Short short answer to the OP's question:

Automatic reversing headlights on model engines: Very common to universal.

Automatic reversing headlights on real engines: Very rare to nearly non-existent.