Steam limits

quote:

Originally posted by ChipR:
Just to take this discussion into the asterisk category on things that affect steam loco speed and efficiency, check out the work of Andre Chapelon and Kyost Kylala, which resulted in the Kylchap locomotive exhaust system. This system made the air draw through the firebed more even and reduced back pressure.

ChipR

Well if those are anything like the Lempor Exhaust Nozzles, it may be fine those "small" steam locomotives in Europe, but sure didn't work worth a darn on a REAL steam locomotive like UP 3985!

HW,

Just as soon as I win the mega-bucks, I'll pay to try one on 3985. :>

ChipR

quote:

Originally posted by ChipR:
HW,

Just as soon as I win the mega-bucks, I'll pay to try one on 3985. :>

ChipR

Apparently you are not aware that the UP already tried the Lempor exhaust nozzel on 3985. It didn't work, and went into the scrap steel dumpster! The 3985 was returned to her proper Alco/UP nozzle design.

Is this what your are referring to?

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=196014

quote:

Is this what your are referring to?

That is EXACTLY the crap I was referring to! Thanks for posting a photo of the Lempor exhaust modification on 3985.

Is that the master mechanics nozzle talked about in the UP steam book?

quote:

Originally posted by ironlake2:
Is that the master mechanics nozzle talked about in the UP steam book?

If you are referring to the above posted photo, then NO! The photo is of the Lempor modification. The original Alco/UP oil fired nozzle design is NOT the "Master Mechanics" design either. The "Master Mechanics Front End" design is primarily for coal burners anyway.

What is used now on 3985 since it was converted to oil?

Hot Water,

Sorry, no, I was not talking about the Lampor, I was talking about the Kylechap. The Kylechap exhaust system is quite a bit different from the Lampor.

Perhaps you are correct that it won't work in our large locos. However, please note that the LNER "Mallard" had a double Kylechap when it set the world speed record for steam locos and that the recently built A1 Tornado has one.

ChipR

quote:

Originally posted by ironlake2:
What is used now on 3985 since it was converted to oil?

The same exhaust nozzle arrangement she always had. See William Kratville's book, "THE CHALLENGER LOCOMOTIVES", pages 78 & 79. The firebox was converted to oil burning, including modifying air inlet arrangements, not the exhaust nozzles.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Water:
That is EXACTLY the crap I was referring to! Thanks for posting a photo of the Lempor exhaust modification on 3985.

Your welcome.

quote:

Originally posted by Edward King:
Also documented are instances of Milwaukee F7 Hudsons straight-lining the graphs on their 120 MPH speed recorders for several miles on end. C. H. Bilty, the Milwaukee chief mechanical honcho at the time, estimated the actual top speed at 125 MPH.

N&W's Class J 4-8-4 610, with its 70" drivers, was documented as attaining a speed of 111 MPH by PRR supervisors who rode and ran it during its tests between Fort Wayne and Chicago. Although it is certain that other 4-8-4s ran faster than that, there is no other known DOCUMENTATION of a 4-8-4 running that fast. In other words, if anybody ever did, they never bragged about it . . .

EdKing

Ed,
I'm sorry but I can't remember what the name of this video was but I saw it around the time the 611 had just finished her rebuild for the first time.They had her on a 5 mile straight stretch somewhere in North Carolina.They said they got her up to 126 Point something.

I later talked to a retired N&W engineer that had run a J every day .He said that he had no doubt the J could run that fast but said back then after you pegged the speedometer you couldn't be sure how fast you were going.He went on to say that now that they have radar that he wasn't surprised that they got her to 126 MPH.

I remember the video because I live about 25 miles from the Va Museum of Transportation where the J and 1218 are and at the time the J being under steam again was as exciting to the folks in the Roanoke Valley as John Glenn circling the earth.I do remember that the Video was made by NS corporation and showed it in Birmingham being rebuilt.

David

The only videos I remember at the time was this one put out by NS....




And this one not sure by whom....

Chris I don't know who had the video but it showed the 611 thru all the stages of the rebuild and as the engineers were trying to get used to running her.There were several old guys in the cab .

I assume they were retirees who had fired and run steam(Most of those guys are gone now).This video was about an hour long.Being from The Roanoke area and into trains not to mention that a lot of my friends and relatives worked at the east end shops that 126 MPH stuck in my mind.

I thought wow thats fast.It wasn't till I joined this forum that I found out the Little Hiawatha regularly hit the century mark on it's runs

David

Hi David,

Hmmm that would be a great video to see. I'm gonna have to keep digging. And if that is the case 126mph is darn fast for a 70" drivered Northern.

David, I don't mean to disparage your post data, but that 126 mph, esp on a just-overhauled loco that had not run in years, is pretty hard to believe. On the PRR tests in which 610 got up to 111 mph, the machinery speed was some incredible figure ( which, of course, I can't now recall ), so 126 mph from 70" drivers is really difficult to imagine, even with the J's cross- and counter-balancing. Can any of you confirm the 126 figure? BTW, that is almost exactly the usually-recognized "official" fastest steam timing ever, by the British "Mallard."

Elsewhere in this thread, someone mentioned the ballast gravel as being a factor in super high speed running. TRAINS ran a piece yrs ago in which the author - DPM? - described a ride on the diesel-powered Hiawatha from the Twin Cities to Chicago. Several times the author mentioned the gravel hitting the underside of the car, with speeds in the 90's, north of Milwaukee, in the vicinity of the Wisconsin Dells.

126MPH? I'd say possible...but not likely. Especially with a freshly
shopped loco, as pointed out. There's only one way to find out. Yup,
fix up 611, and send her to the Northeast corredor with the dyno car,
and let her rip! FWIW, the Brits may have been fast, but the fastest
steam in the universe is on our side of the pond!

The 126 stuck out in my mind.I'm certain that was the figure they gave.They showed a shot of the stretch of track and said it set a record for for this engine but didn't show the record run so was it just hype maybe.I now remember I saw the video during one of our monthly safety meetings when I was at the power company.

These meetings lasted anywhere from an hour to all day and after most of the safety discussions were out of the way a more impromptu meeting took place.
I remember 2 representatives from NS were there to discuss procedure for situations where wire was down across NS track ie:where to get the track number and contact info for their dispatch center so I assume they brought the video.

This was very exciting to us not just for those that were into trains.Back when I was a little kid the Virginia museum of Transportation was little more than a park by the Roanoke river we played on the J and the other engines most of which were busted up and rusted up diesels .

The only building at the museum was a set of bathrooms.The only other display beside the trains was a Titan Missile which sits outside the present Museum building today.The flood of '85 made them realize they needed a different location.

We all new they were the most powerful 4-8-4's ever built and built solely at the east end shops.One of my friends dad was a supervisor in the boiler shop.Another was a supervisor in the car shops.I had friends who were engineers and car makers .The 3 Biggest employers in the Roanoke Valley at the time were N&W,GE, and Appalachian Power in that order.So as you can see we all here in Roanoke thought the J was the biggest and the best.

One thing you have to remember in favor of the record claim is the J had pressure feed lubrication so even being tight from a rebuild she was a little different from a lot of steam engines of her day

I will say this about the 611 .If you got the privilege to see her under steam and hear that steam boat whistle of hers it's something you'll never forget.
It's sad that she's back to being a jungle gym for little kids to play on again.

David

quote:

Originally posted by John Craft:

quote:

around the time the 611 had just finished her rebuild for the first time.They had her on a 5 mile straight stretch somewhere in North Carolina.They said they got her up to 126 Point something.

quote:

126 mph, esp on a just-overhauled loco that had not run in years, is pretty hard to believe. On the PRR tests in which 610 got up to 111 mph, the machinery speed was some incredible figure ( which, of course, I can't now recall ), so 126 mph from 70" drivers is really difficult to imagine, even with the J's cross- and counter-balancing. Can any of you confirm the 126 figure?

No, because it didn't happen. I photographed 611 on that move, and 65mph was about as fast as I can remember it going. I have a vague recollection of hearing about some 70+ running between Crewe and Norfolk in the 80s, but I never personally witnessed 611 top 70, though I paced it at 65mph more than once.

I can't think of any Southern or N&W line that's rated for higher than 79mph (ATS would be required). A train operating at 126mph would definitely get the attention of the FRA, and not in a good way. There are stories of CPR 2839 exceeding 79mph, but I don't recall ever hearing one about 611.

The RPM figure you refer to was 540RPM (drivers worn to 68 1/2"). At 126mph, that would be 618RPM.

Finally, getting 611 to 126+ on a 'five mile straight stretch' is rather unlikely - physics gets in the way. Getting 'Mallard' up to 126 required 10 miles of running downhill:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L...lass_A4_4468_Mallard

quote:

Mallard, with six coaches plus a dynamometer car in tow, topped Stoke Summit at 75 mph and began to accelerate downhill. The speeds at the end of each mile from the summit were recorded at:
87½
96½
104
107
111½
116
119
122½
124¼
and finally 125 mph. The speed recorded by instruments in the dynamometer car reached a momentary maximum of 126 mph.

At 126mph, 'Mallard''s running gear (80" drivers) would be making 529RPM.

Anyone who says 611 was operated at 126mph during the excursion era is, to put it politely, overflowing with bovine-manufactured petunia fertilizer.

ASME on 611

Interesting reading on page four.

"Under test conditions, the “J” propelled a 15-car, 1015-ton passenger train at 110 mph on level tangent track. Performance in regular service was equally impressive, with speeds on straight sections of track reported to approach 100 mph."

"A unique side-rod-and-driver counter-balancing design, in conjunction with stiffened centering of the leading and trailing trucks, permitted speeds in excess of 100 mph with drivers only 70 inches in diameter, performance unequaled by other steam locomotives. According to vibration calculations, the balancing theoretically would have allowed speeds of up to 140 mph without the rail damage that could have occurred with conventional designs."

A circa 1959 Trains magazine article spoke of 100MPH running of 611 on the final steam powered N&W passenger excursion run.