Stuff coming back from Lionel service worse than it went in

Not sure why you would post this in a public place, might have been better to deal with this in private/directly with Lionel...

understand your frustration, I had a 2-8-0 that was a mess. 

Because the F40 issues were extremely well publicized.  Dave’s instructions to the forum were to send them back for “repair”. So when someone does what they ask, and you get it back in worse condition then you sent it, why would you not share it?

Fully intend to get a hold of them Monday or Tuesday if they observe the holiday. It’s saturday night, only available avenue is to complain on the forum.  

BOILERMAKER1 seems to have a valid point in sharing his misfortune, IMO.

My question would be. Are you sure it's even the locomotive you sent in??   It happened to me...

Although I have had no problems with Lionel's repair doing the repair, I have noticed slight paint scratches or other minor damage on shells and attached items when I get the engine back. I usually just rub it out or fine sand it down and touch-up or glue it back on.

Given the short turn-around, I guess they have too many repairs and too few repair techs to take proper care or glove-handle when handling the engines. They dont seem to treat your engines like they are their engines.

So I guess there is a trade-off when you want a repair by Lionel. That sounds bad, but I accept a complex electronic repair for a few handling blemishes.

86TA355SR posted:

Not sure why you would post this in a public place, might have been better to deal with this in private/directly with Lionel...

 

understand your frustration, I had a 2-8-0 that was a mess. 

His post is valid and in the right "public venue".  Glad he posted it.  We need to know what the "risk is" in sending a warrant item to Lionel techs for repair - even beyond what the transporting entity  might do to it coming and going!

Interesting - things sent to MTH come back - repaired JUST AS SENT!

My SD40's didn't work properly out of the box and after two trips to Lionel they still won't "lash-up" smoothly. Also, they came back to me with chipped paint, broken handrails, and other detail parts missing each time.

When I brought this to their attention, they blamed me for not packaging it properly, which is not true.

I'm not happy about it and I don't mind saying so publicly.

If you folks aren't satisfied with the way Lionel handles repairs the answer is very simple - DON'T BUY FROM THEM.  If you continue buying from them knowing there's a potential problem(s) shame on you.    There's no need to complicate a cheese sandwich and there's certainly no need to bring here..

AlanRail posted:

Given the short turn-around, I guess they have too many repairs and too few repair techs to take proper care or glove-handle when handling the engines.

Can't tell if you're being facetious or not. Honestly I'd rather it take longer if I received my repaired train in the same shape I sent it in, rather than a fast turnaround time that causes me to sand/paint/glue when it returned to me.

Better a little which is well done, than a great deal imperfectly. - Plato

This is the right venue to voice concern or frustrations of a repair service whether it is a manufacture of the item or a private repair service. It is information that helps one make a decision on getting their trains repaired.

  Bill

Not sure why you would post this in a public place, might have been better to deal with this in private/directly with Lionel...

Funny I don't think I've ever seen a response like this when somebody praises a vendor.

The two times I have sent an item to Lionel for warranty repair, it was repaired very quickly and returned in the same condition it was sent, so I guess I've been lucky.

I suppose it does make sense to take some quick pictures from all sides of an item being sent back for warranty repair (to Lionel or any other vendor), so if there is some issue or damage once the item is returned... you'll have the "before" pictures to prove something was damaged, etc.

Troubling but I would want to hear Lionel’s explanation before getting out the wood and the nails.  Some of the damage complained of here is so blatant (remember that fellow with the MTH turbo train with parts floating around in the box - the accusation was that MTH broke it and sent it back that way) that Lionel staff would have to be idiots to send t back that way because it is going to get caught, the customer will be seriously ****ed, and in the era of social media everyone will hear about it.  Not smart.  Because I generally don’t assume idiocy from other seemingly rational adults, I would like to hear all the facts.

I cannot see the damage that well other than to see it is a scratch but I would, in all these cases that are very blatant, suspect shipping damage.

Lionel also does seem to have an issue with its manufacturing contractors that it needs to correct.  Too many horror stories here for there to be nothing here.  I wish them well in getting it right as they are an important part of the hobby. 

We can't discount less-than-great shipping practices when returning stuff to LIONEL.

I hope you guys aren't just shipping these things back to Lionel in their "shipper" sleeve...that's pushing your luck for sure.

Gotta double box - and make sure it's a system they can re-use easily when returning your train.

You'd think they would note apparent shipping damage on inspection - like "hatch appears to have popped off in shipping with possible paint damage." - just to CYA.

I just want to say that BOILERMAKER is right in bringing the issue here.I thought that was one of the things the forum was all about.Sharing good and bad experiences and trading information with the purpose of making the hobby better for all of us.Yea were all human sometimes it feels better to breath the bad air out.It will work out...he will get his Locomotive fixed right.

Nick

How many interactions after the first time to resolve an issue with the manufacture is reasonable before voicing a public opinion?  

My opinion is none.

This especially frustrating when the item arrives back after several weeks to find it in poorer shape than when you sent it in to employees “trained” in handling and packaging trains.

Ray Lombardo posted:

Lionel also does seem to have an issue with its manufacturing contractors that it needs to correct.  Too many horror stories here for there to be nothing here.  

Ya think?  You can add the SD-40s NW-2s, the shays and most signifigant the Moguls....which have yet to have a solution. ( The only safe one seems to be the Light Mikado)

With hundreds of boxes of defective Lionel items in the warranty dept, I bet its difficult to keep track of whose is whose and whats wrong with which one. Although each item seems to has its regularly scheduled defect.

Dave seeems to be trying his best too.  I'm guessing he doesn't get to pick the subcontractor, and with the bean counters going with the lowest bidder this is what we get.

Something  I found especially telling about "Lionels biggest competitor". When they did a tour of the manufacturing facility that was posted by Trainworld, ITS THE SAME PEOPLE DOING THE MANUFACTURING THAT HAVE DONE IT FOR MANY YEARS.

Maybe this is why "Lionels biggest competitor" seems to have far fewer posts about out of the box failures??

I think Lionel in general, and Dave in particular, will be glad when the F40PH saga is over.   That was not one of Lionel's most shining moments. 

As for the hatch, I can tell you why they worked on it, though I suspect they could have been more careful.  It was sticking so bad that you couldn't get it off because of the paint thickness.  I had fixed mine before I sent it in for the other fixes, and it wasn't further damaged.

I'm still a little suspicious of the F40PH as mine occasionally does something odd out of the blue, but I did verify the wiring is routed away from the flywheel and I fixed the number board lighting on both this one and the cabbage unit so they matched in intensity.

I am new to the O gauge and all I hear is horror stories about Lionel's newer stuff, its quality and Lionel's reputation now in general. I think its a great idea to take images of your stuff before you send them back. 

I'm glad this topic was posted because I think it validates my decision which I made several years ago not to buy anything new.  I suffered through too many out of box failures and failed repair jobs from both of the top two manufacturers which was beginning to have a negative impact on my love for this hobby.   I've kept it simple since I made that decision and it has saved me not only money but aggravation as well.  I am now enjoying the hobby more than ever.

BOILERMAKER1,

So sorry to read about your problem with your engine. Definitely, your engine should of never came back from Lionel the way it did. If Lionel couldn't repair your engine correctly, they should of called you, letting you know your engine cannot be repaired. Then, they should of offered to either try to find you another one or send you a different locomotive at the same value of yours. The other thing they should of done, would of been to contact your dealer and work out a deal with your dealer, whereby your dealer would refund you, your purchase price. 

Its not just Lionel.... thats why I dont send stuff back for repairs if I really want to keep the item. This is been going on for a long time, send it back for a refund or fix it yourself.... those are your 2 best options. None of the manufacturers WILL fix your stuff to your standards. I fix my stuff myself, but lately I cancelled all orders for new items. Tired of fixing stuff out of the box. NW2... another one just cancelled.

Thanks for sharing your story here. I too have a real concern only mine was it getting it there safely. I have a ra number from lionel to fix my brand new pnp culvert unloader. It works well except the ir beam function is messed up. Since this is new I would like it working as it should. I am afraid that even if boxed correctly ups or others my damage it as they just see a large box they toss around on their truck. Never thought about lionel messing it up. For what its worth I called back lionel to ask to talk to the tech who just does accessories and was told he is not allowed to take phone calls. I told the lady on the phone that if I could verify something I could save him the time and fix it myself as the ir part is cheap enough. She was really nice and freindly to deal with although she said it was up to me I could keep it as is or send it back. Sure wish I could have spoken with the tech as he probably could have told me in seconds what to replace since he repairs these and has probably scene my issue dozens of times. If it is just a cheap sensor I would get one. That is much better than risk any further damage by shipping it. We do have the option of emailing them and yes it does work. One time dean replied to my question and I ordered the part and fix it myself. In this case though I wanted to talk to a real person.  Every time I think it would be cool to work there I think about what they must go through every day. I am sure they dont get paid very much either and thats a shame. I 100% agree that people like us wanting quick tunaround times probably contribute to issues like the original poster had. I for one could not care how long it takes as long as it is done right and have no issues with the repair job done when getting it back. 

One thing for sure. If the Lionel high end market does not meet the profitable expectations then it will most likely disappear. They would have to survive on their brand name only and a lot of us would move on to another manufacturer. I hope they can get all these problems fixed. 

I've post this before, I will NEVER! Purchase another new LL anything way to much, new DOA stuff! Mike R. & I were on a 1st name basis 38 RAs in a about 5 years so I gave up!

romiller49 posted:

One thing for sure. If the Lionel high end market does not meet the profitable expectations then it will most likely disappear. They would have to survive on their brand name only and a lot of us would move on to another manufacturer. I hope they can get all these problems fixed. 

"High end" means quality reliable product.  IMO, a good portion of goods coming from Communist China is unreliable crap and their customer service often leaves much to be desired. There is no consistency.  We didn't have these problems years ago when product was made domestically and notice that the price of the imported product is just as high as it ever was.

Beginning to have a sinking feeling about my Mogul.

I think we should all now wait to hear from Lionel. The origional poster's comments are valid BUT we also need a valid reply from L.

mike w posted:

I think we should all now wait to hear from Lionel. The origional poster's comments are valid BUT we also need a valid reply from L.

Don’t hold your breath.  I would be SHOCKED if Lionel replied to this thread.  

Arthur posted:

Beginning to have a sinking feeling about my Mogul.

Started having that a LONG time ago.......I've thrown several engines in the trash can (yes, you read that right,  I really have) and have never regretted it. The mogul may be the next one.....

In some sense, it seems to me that recent technology advancements with these trains have too often outstripped reliability. Older items were much simpler with a lot less to go wrong and easily repaired when something did break. The top-end trains are much more delicate, have many more easily broken exterior pieces and that is a problem in itself. I have snapped off railings and such just getting new engines out of the box for the first time.

For what it’s worth, I buy almost exclusively LionChief Plus motive power nowadays and have had no problems so far with any of it. 

For what it is worth,the I Phone is made in China as well as other electronic items sold here in the US.I think that Lionel does not qc their manufacturing to save some money and we receive the result of that cost cutting measure.

Mikey

If Lionel doesn't get their quality back to where it should be they could go out of business. I can't see how they can keep producing junk and survive.

I think the high end market is a small portion of the Lionel market. Lionel is a household name and I’m sure the entry level starter sets are the backbone of the biz. I’m wondering how bad the QC really is since you never hear from the happy customers and the unhappy ones are continually unhappy. I’d be disappointed to say the least if I just spent $550 on a new loco that didn’t work then sent it back only to have it come all beat up. It’s insult to injury to be told you didn’t pack it well enough. I’m sure nobody here would pack something poorly

BOILERMAKER,

Please keep us updated on Lionel's actions on getting your issues resolved

IMO as stated to lionel customer service not just here. I told the person on the phone that all the high end stuff especially those items with complicated mechanisms should be 100% tested at the factory before being boxed up and shipped out. This way at least they know it was working 100% before it got damaged in shipping. Another thing is the amount of product they try to put out in a given catolog. If there was less product and more attention on that product being made to spec and using quality parts. Not cheap ones to save a penny or two in production. Not to mention getting it right on the factory floor and on the assembly line. Maybe lionel could get a better handle on thier quality control over there. Lets not forget the people putting this stuff together are just average workers hired to do factory assembly work. Just like any factory worker if they come in and are having a crappy day,tired,hungover,or feel they are being paid to low for what they are doing. It is very possible they will get a who cares attitude and just slap the stuff together. I look at it this way. A legacy engine made on monday or friday is no different than a ford car or truck made on monday or friday. Look at rapido trains. The owner jason once said on line they wont accept half ***. He stated he wants to be known for quality. When you by rapido its like you are getting a fine swiss watch he said. He said he does not want anything with the rapido name on it to be junk. He even retooled or redesigned or in one case remade products based on this philosophy and yes he said he lost money,but to him quality was more important. Lets hope lionel gets this figured out so as not to damage their name any further. I mostly by second hand so I avoid all the out of the box problems. I only by like new items when possible also. Tested and made sure they operate as if they were new. If the issue is minor and can be fixed I may get that item and repair it,but mostly I dont by fixer uppers. I have had a dud or two,but that % is on the low end.  I would like to buy some of the new lionel stuff,but it is priced to high for me. I would like a nw2 switcher,but will wait till lionel gets all the bugs worked out. Maybe the second run. 

EMD posted:

BOILERMAKER,

Please keep us updated on Lionel's actions on getting your issues resolved

Definitely.

And for all the “shipping damage” posts, it was in its plastic wrap, foam cradle, orange box, shipping carton, a layer of paper and air packs and another carton. This is NOT shipping damage. 

What’s missing paint doesn’t even touch the foam cradle.  It seriously looks like the hatch was pried out of the shell. 

Like I said above, once they’re open whether it’s tomorrow or Tuesday, I’ll be touching base with them. 

For what it’s worth, Mike R replaced a 2-6-6-2 mallet for me because it came back looking like it was rolled around on something without cushioning, so the Mike posts are misplaced... he just knew how to take care of it when they messed up. Hopefully whoever is running the shop now has that same skill. 

The new Mogul is a perfect engine for my layout. I'm still holding off purchase until I am satisfied that they have been fixed.

MELGAR