Substitute for Loctite?

I wouldn't use ACC on a screw thread unless I didn't expect to ever have to remove it. Most hardware and home stores carry the various strengths of Loctite thread locker. If you have a Honda or Harley motorcycle store that is closer they stock thread lockers with their own brand name, likely just Loctite with a different label. They all work equally well.

Pete

I seen mentioned to use,  clear nail polish!

Blue loctite

Just my opinion but, there is NO substitute for Loctite!  Use the chart they offer, and select the right color Loctite for your specific application, and be done with it. When using the right Loctite, you will also be able to remove the screw simply by applying heat (soldering iron small tip) without damaging the threads.

I bought a new tube of blue Loctite for the TIU nut tightening project and the drop I applied to each post two days ago has not dried or cured.  Is this stuff now junk?

You got old stock, that's what happens if it's out of date.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

You got old stock, that's what happens if it's out of date.

No "use by date" I could see  ... how does one tell if it's "fresh" at the hardware store? Does it ever harden or is what I did applying it worthless?  At least the nuts are tight now ....

Wife suggests throwing out everything I have, glue, Loctite, I've had for a year or more  .... and just go to the store and buy new when needed.  That will be dumping about 12 tubes of various stuff ...

Stated shelf life is 24 months unopened, 12 months once its opened.

I have some bottles that are over 20 years old and still work (high temp red) but I also have some blue loctite that is now useless. One sign that its no longer useful, at least with the blue version is it changes from transparent to opaque.

Pete

What I've had happen to the blue Loctite is it just stops working, it's still liquid.  I toss it and buy another bottle.  I've had better luck with standard Loctite CA Adhesive, I usually get to use the whole bottle.  The Loctite 380 does deteriorate pretty fast, but the Loctite 416 seems to hold up pretty well with age.

The TIUs are all done and closed up, remounted on the layout, so I guess I'll just hope for the best and leave them alone.  Maybe it will just eventually dry up and be solid.  It was still blue and looked okay when I used it, but guess not.  I bought it about 3 months ago.  Now worthless.  I'll file it under "Blue LocTite is unreliable crap."

Loctite thread locker is anaerobic. Only the portion under the threads cure. What you can see and is exposed to air and does not cure. It may eventually evaporate but it won't harden. After application just wipe away the excess. 

Pete

How can you tell?  Do the screws easily unscrew after 24 hours?  Loctite does not harden unless confined.

I use green and blue all the time from sample bottles from 1990 to hold cast iron drivers on steel axles.  Never a problem.

but two or three threads? A drop of ACC. It will hold, and with that few threads it will shear when it hears the word screwdriver.

Kerrigan posted:

The TIUs are all done and closed up, remounted on the layout, so I guess I'll just hope for the best and leave them alone.  Maybe it will just eventually dry up and be solid.  It was still blue and looked okay when I used it, but guess not.  I bought it about 3 months ago.  Now worthless.  I'll file it under "Blue LocTite is unreliable crap."

 

Nope! Certainly NOT "unreliable crap". The liquid part that you CAN NOT see, i.e. deep in the threads, is what does the "thread locking", and NOT the excess you see outside. Suggest you learn more about how Loctite REALLY works, prior to making uninformed negative statements.

When you buy stuff like that make sure you buy at a high volume, high turnover dealer like a big box store or auto parts store. A lot of stuff as an expiration date in code and your store may not even know. Silicone caulk as expiration date, and little did I know so did my water softener machine. Got stuck on that one.

Clem

Hot Water posted:

Kerrigan posted:

The TIUs are all done and closed up, remounted on the layout, so I guess I'll just hope for the best and leave them alone.  Maybe it will just eventually dry up and be solid.  It was still blue and looked okay when I used it, but guess not.  I bought it about 3 months ago.  Now worthless.  I'll file it under "Blue LocTite is unreliable crap."

 

Nope! Certainly NOT "unreliable crap". The liquid part that you CAN NOT see, i.e. deep in the threads, is what does the "thread locking", and NOT the excess you see outside. Suggest you learn more about how Loctite REALLY works, prior to making uninformed negative statements.

Then it's all fine and well; thanks Jack ...

Thanks to all who responded.

I have ACC and clear nail polish, which I just used to insulate the brake shoes of this particular engine.  I can make the run to the "Big Box" store tomorrow.  However, I am partial to the ACC that BOB2 recommends.

Regards,

Ed

I use Loctite 242 "Removeable Threadlocker" for fixing screws that you may want to remove again like side rod screws.  I don't use anything else and I purchase the smallest size available from McMaster Carr.  It last a long time and the cost is not a factor to me.

Joe

I keep my Loctite in the fridge AND where I buy it from they do as well.  I had an engineering business once (not trains) used it for many years.

Because you are mistaken, I say with respect:

It is just plain stupid to say it is "crap". Roo.

Good evening, all joking aside you hear it in the surface mines all the time.

" A cross threaded bolt is tighter than any Loctite any day" !!!!!!!!

Probably not good advice for this particular application !!!!

Go with the product designed for the task - Locktite. Should you ever need to remove the screw it is easily done with the touch of a hot soldering iron.

That's true, but two or three threads is not a threaded joint.  It will be a glue joint, and a tenuous one at that.

Full threads on a 0-80 crankpin screw?  I would depend on torque, not Loctite.  And I still use steel screws for that.  Getting difficult to buy.  If torque won't do, just don't fully tap the crankpin.

I should have fully described the situation.  The #3 driver set of the front engine on my Sunset C&O H-8 does not touch the rails.  The pivot point is a screw and I believe that it is holding this last wheel set off the rail.  I need to have this screw several turns out so the #3 wheel set can settle on the rails.  This is what I need the Loctite/ACC/threadlock for.  I can back the screw out 2 turns and have 3 turns left in the hole.

Ed

Ed, the mechanical issue you have should really be solved by replacing the screw with a slightly longer version, especially if it sees any stress or pressure on it. 3  threads is not a lot of holding power.

Suggest you learn more about how Loctite REALLY works.........

It's a methacrylate that works by free radical initiated polymerization sourced from the electrochemical action of the metals.  Probably best to store in a refrigerated desiccator.

3 turns, unseated. The red is looking like the answer, the Acc too, but heat wont help save those three threads.

I have only had one bottle of bad blue, brand new too.

All locktite type products are not the same. Locktite co. makes it most consistant. It does not vary.

Some companies, and I'm pretty sure that includes Locktite brand,. make more than one "red". Some harden in air, some never harden just get very gooey, some only harden inside of threads. You need to know the number and/or it's results, not what color it is.

If it was a seated nut, and I didn't have red that would dry in air, or green surface/ bearing lock (not the green creeper, that penetrates), then I would use enamel paint, enamel nail polish (not lacquer), or Super glue (acc). Super glue is always a last ditch effort. I avoided it like a plague till gel came along.

If that is a # 0-80 Id stick with "blue" or "purple". Red on that is likely going to be an issue, though with three threads you might get lucky once or twice using heat, after that  goodby threads, hello tap kit.

Buy a longer screw, grind the tip till it bottoms out but leaves your gap. The big box may not have it. If you took care of your old school local hardware store, you won't wonder where to find much of anything as far as hardware goes. I mourn over those more than the hobby shops.

On the paint, polish, glue, I would not use it on threads, but on top..

PRR Man posted:

Ed, the mechanical issue you have should really be solved by replacing the screw with a slightly longer version, especially if it sees any stress or pressure on it. 3  threads is not a lot of holding power.

This is the correct answer. Took a while to get here.

Pete

My "go to" adhesive when i want something to stay together permanently is Loctite 380. When not in use i keep it in the refrigerator in an airtight container with a desiccant inside. It has remained effective for over 2 years after being stored this way.

rrjjf posted:

I use Loctite 242 "Removeable Threadlocker" for fixing screws that you may want to remove again like side rod screws.  I don't use anything else and I purchase the smallest size available from McMaster Carr.  It last a long time and the cost is not a factor to me.

Joe

Loctite products are great but I've noticed a huge price spike over the past few years. 

In the not too distant past a few ounce bottle of Loctite blue was under ten bucks.  Now a few gram tube is the same price. 

Wonder if it's because the generics/knockoffs at places like Harbor Freight are cutting into their profits... or because their products are so good that they are the only game in town. 

Not trying to cause any ire, just mentioning an observation.

The option of a longer screw does not exist unless I want to have a machinist make one for me.  It is a shouldered screw made for this particular situation.

Since I thought I needed just a few turns of the screw more space for the connecting bar, I tried washers.  Even a #2 washer had too small a hole.  Then I cut a piece of 0.020 styrene and drilled an 1/8" hole.  Sanded it smooth on both sides and inserted it.  Perfect fit.  I thought I was home free.  I put the engine on the track and checked that driver again and it was still not touching.  I wiggled everything a bit to see if it would settle down and then ran it forward and backward.  The driver was still not touching so that extra space I thought I needed was just fictitious.  On quite a bit of further examination, I think it is an engineering problem.  The weight on the front engine is between the 1st and second driver and the third driver just floats.  Not much, but it does not bear any weight.  Similarly for the rear engine but there, only the last driver makes contact with the rails.  So ends this saga.  I wonder if the C&O had this problem???

I learned a lot about threadlocks and will keep this information handy.  

Thanks to all who responded.  

Ed

Roo posted:

I keep my Loctite in the fridge AND where I buy it from they do as well.  I had an engineering business once (not trains) used it for many years.

Because you are mistaken, I say with respect:

It is just plain stupid to say it is "crap". Roo.

This tube, which didn't "lock" the threads after four days on the test screw/nut qualified for the label "THIS tube of blue loctite is/was crap."  Bought a new fresh tube which appears to have worked.   New tube = good, old tube = crap.

Your mileage may vary of course.

Think about it - the front engine of an articulated is simply out of balance.  That is true of the H-8, even though the pilot truck is single axle.

There are four possible solutions:

Most Sunset and all real articulated locomotives support the boiler above the drivers of the front engine.  It is tricky to get it right on a model - spring-loading the slider/roller can make it work.

The pilot truck can be sprung to support some of the imbalance.  Tougher to do on a single axle truck.

You can spring load the rear of the front engine with a coil spring above the pivot tongue.  This, too, can be tricky.

Finally, and maybe best for a model, you weight the rear of the front engine - I use solid brass blocks - and give the area ahead of the front driver a weight reduction program.  That has sort of already been done with brass imports - but for doorstop guys it means you cannot have solid cast cylinder blocks and big beefy frame extensions.  I make my front cylinders out of brass thin wall tube and sheet.  My rear engine cylinders are more conventional, using heavy brass dowel.

One of my smaller models has aluminum front cylinders.

This area is fraught with problems unrelated to the length of that screw.  However, remember, a shouldered screw can be replaced with a standard screw and a short hunk of K&S tube.  I repair MG brass crank pins that way, but I machine a steel tube instead of brass.

This tube, which didn't "lock" the threads after four days on the test screw/nut qualified for the label "THIS tube of blue loctite is/was crap."  Bought a new fresh tube which appears to have worked.   New tube = good, old tube = crap.

Your mileage may vary of course.

Good to see the good name of Loctite has been redeemed.

Everything has a limited life even us great human beings, you can extend the life by looking after your health, you can extend the life of Loctite by keeping it in the fridge with the cap tight. Roo.

I was wondering why, if Loctite requires an anaerobic environment to harden, it doesn't set up in the bottle. One plausible explanation I read is that the plastic used for the containers is gas permeable, so the Loctite is not actually cut off from oxygen while in the dispenser.

I have had good luck using blue Loctite for both very small screws (like those on Sunset's eccentric cranks) and larger ones like the 4-40 machine screws I often use for attaching Athearn trucks. With a little Loctite in place, you can run in the mounting screw until the truck is stable but also has freedom of movement, and be confident the screw will stay where you want it. I prefer this method of mounting trucks to the use of compression springs.

Before tossing a bottle of "bad" loctite try shaking it up before using. 

I checked my own Sunset H-8 and did not find any problem with the rear drivers of the front engine making proper contact with the rails. This model is just as it came from Sunset and I have not made any special adjustments. That made me wonder if perhaps the rear driving axle of the front engine on your particular model is sitting too high in the frame. Have you checked to be sure that all the axles are in the same plane, in other words that all the drivers contact the rails correctly when the front engine sits on the rails just by itself?  I think the drivers on this model are sprung (?), but if so the springs are way too stiff to actually allow the axles any useful movement in the frames. Perhaps something is preventing the rear axle journals from sitting all the way down against the journal retaining plate.

B SMITH,

Good idea.  I will check them.  I have the same problem, in reverse, in the rear engine.  The only wheels that touch the rails are the rear set of drivers.  The front two sets float.  Is yours OK?

Thanks,

Ed

All the drivers on my engine are basically OK. Having said that, however, I will add that I can rock the front engine back and forth a tiny amount because the # 2 drivers sit a little bit lower than the others and act as a pivot point. This movement is a matter of only a few thousands of an inch and does not seem to affect operation. I haven't bothered to take the front engine apart to correct this mismatch, which I probably could do by shimming the bottoms of #2 journals so that they ride a tiny bit higher when the retaining plate is tightened down. If you turn your engine over and lay a straightedge along the treads of the front engine's drivers, you'll be able see right away if they are all in the same plane (or not).