Sunset E7 impressions

Sounds like 3rd rail did a terrific job. Thanks for a nicely done report.

Chris,

I really like the PRR units, they turned out so well. I used to model the PRR a tiny bit when I was kid.

I am eager to operate them in DCC so hearing your testimony really helps. Currently the Midland Route Standard Gauge is DC and operating these sound equipped models on DC is a challenge especially on our ancient system. The dips and spikes in voltage on certain blocks is a surefire way to have a train rocketing at 120 per into a curve, thank goodness for super elevation!

Did you take any videos? Or shots with the consist?

Nice locos man!

Erik

Chris

Thanks for this review, they look really great.  I plan to see these in action at your next open house. So if you do slobber on them before I see them, do it prototypically

Erik,

I shot a couple videos with my phone. They are pretty low res. I'll try to post them later.

John, see you in March!

Gents, 

  I was with Chris when he test ran his E7's. Right out of the box, the first unit ran flawlessly. The second unit gave him some problems until Chris realized it was a decoder issue. Chris addressed this quickly and solved this problem. I have to admit, I am very impressed with the sound and drive. The sound is impressive and rich. It is full of bass and carries well throughout the layout. The detail on the model is very good and specific to the PRR. The cab light is very bright ( I,m sure it's an easy fix). There are a couple of minor issues I would deal with, such as the cab step mounted on the front truck. The paint is a little too green for my tastes. But all in all this is a very good model for the money. Where can a person have 2 six axle engines with sound and DCC, completely detailed with a cab interior, already painted, for under a $1000. My only question now is, will they do the modernized versions later with all the grill changes, stand-off number boards, and other mods. I think a good job was done on this project and I will enjoy watching Chris's engines pulling trains on the layout.

Tom Mapes

Tom,

Nice review.  What were the decoder issues that were quickly fixed?

Thanks,

Ed

 Ed,

I believe they were just some address issues. And from what I understand, QSI is somewhat different from other manufacturers. A very, very minor issue. As I said, good value for the money.

Tom Mapes

Ed, the only minor issue I had with programming was when I began with the second engine. I neglected to re-acquire that engine using address '3', which is how you must acquire the engine the first time. Once that was done it ran fine.

NCE DCC-2-PRR Tuscan consisted together @ speed #1 moved about 27” in both directions in 3 minutes. I only have a 6' test track. Tuscan color is good Sunset used yellow paint for stripping. Both engines together look great coupled together.. As mentioned cabs light must go. Red marker lights come on with number board lights and should be separate.

 One coupler is higher by 1/16 or more. Sunset did a nice job using screen on the side where Atlas cheeped out with plastic screen on their F-3. I didn't buy a second set because of this. Hats off to Scott; yes there are a few issues but we have excellent running engines with a Jerry Snow type drive and the sound is good. Should be easy to add a second speaker and have stereo sound…

Dennis  

I mentioned at the beginning of this thread about tweaking the speed table on the QSI Titan magnum decoder in order to gain more top speed to the E7.

After digging into the default CV settings, I came up with the following:

Start voltage at speed step 1 is about 8 volts.

The CV value range for max voltage is 0-255. The lower number being higher voltage. Default setting is 1, almost max voltage!

What this tells me is the not-so-fast top speed on my E7's is not from the decoder, but from a less than optimum track voltage on the club layout.

We already have been in discussion about replacing Variacs to get our track voltage higher than it currently is. My QSI decoder findings confirm the issue is with the track voltage, not the decoder's default settings.

Adding the new Varicas should confirm this is the case.

PRR Man

Are you getting less than 12 volts out at the rails on your layout?

"The CV value range for max voltage is 0-255. The lower number being higher voltage. Default setting is 1, almost max voltage!"

On traditional QSI decoders, you would want to set max voltage to close to 255 to achive top speed.  Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I think you have things reversed. 

By the way, the green E's look fabulous, but why were they painted green when they were intended for passenger service?

Chris,  I did notice when I brought my PSC K4 down with DCC it ran a bit slow at max throttle...  I thought maybe it was just the low RPM 9000 series pittman motor I put in it.

Ted,

we've measured about 13.5 volts at the rails. We want it around 16+ volts.

Glenn, the first couple deliveries of the PRR E7 units were painted DGLE.

Subsuquent acquisitions were Tuscan, along with re-paints of the older units.

You have added a welcome wrench into the process. I'll delve deeper into the QSI depths.

Glenn,

All Pennsy steam locomotives were painted DGLE (Dark Green Locomotive Enamel). When passenger diesels were ordered and delivered they too were DGLE at first. Sometime in the late 40's or early 50's (I don't have my notes) the decision was made that diesel passenger power would be painted Tuscan red to match the trains they were pulling. Freight and yard diesels continued to be painted DGLE until the PC era turned everything black.

Buzz

Well, here is the deal.  At our club several members received our E-7s.  We have them in NYC, B&O, SP and mine in PRR.  They are great sounding runners on plain DC!!  Bravo to those Sunset and those model artists overseas.  i

PRR Man

While getting rid of voltage sags is a good goal it may not help you in this situation.  Most decoders don't really let you adjust the voltage to the motor even though they still call it that.  What you are actually adjusting is the width of the full voltage pulse that is sent to the motor by the decoder.  Most decoders are built to never let the motor see more than 12 volts.  If you already have more than 12 volts at the rails under load (and under load is what matters) the decoder can give the motor the full 12 volts for 100% of the time so you may not see any speed increase from command equipped locomotives despite the increase in track voltage.  You may want to check your QSI manual or, if the manual doesn't have enough info, contact QSI to find out if your speed is really limited by track voltage or if you are dealing with a mechanical limitation. 

You might also want to try running a PS3 locomotive with DCC on 128 throttle steps (one step = one SMPH) at the same time as the E7.  I have found the easiest way to measure scale MPH when speed mapping a decoder is to pace it with an MTH PS3 locomotive.  Under most conditions the MTH decoder tachometer is far more accurate than a hand held stop watch for measuring scale speed.

From 1946 until mid 1952 Pennsy passenger diesels were delivered in DGLE with five gold stripes.  In the summer of 1952 the railroad published instructions for most classes of passenger power to be repainted Tuscan red with immitation gold (dulux) lettering and stripes.  From my less tha comprensive photo survey it seems it took about a year for the fleet to be repainted.  Since by that time the Centapedes were largely out of passenger service, they never were painted Tuscan.  Dual service deisels such as the FM Erie builts and all but two ABA sets of FP7's were single stripe DGLE from delivery to scrapping.  Around 1956 the PRR revised the Tuscan red passenger scheme from five stripes to a single wide one with bold lettering.  Some BP20's carried the Tuscan five stripe scheme into the 1960's.  Later in the 1960's up until Penn Central the PRR repainted a number of E7 and E8 in solid Tuscan without stripes, simply applying large PRR keystones on the sides of the bodies.

A more subtle change related to the keystones on the noses of A units.  Initially locomotive numbers were found in the keystone (as with steam locomotives), starting in 1953 the lettering standard was revised to use overlapped PRR letters in the nose keystone, like was the practice with side keystones all along.

From 1946 until mid 1952 Pennsy passenger diesels were delivered in DGLE with five gold stripes.  In the summer of 1952 the railroad published instructions for most classes of passenger power to be repainted Tuscan red with immitation gold (dulux) lettering and stripes.  From my less than comprehensive photo survey it seems it took about a year for the fleet to be repainted.  Since by that time the Centipedes were largely out of passenger service, they never were painted Tuscan.  Dual service diesels such as the FM Erie builts and all but two ABA sets of FP7's were single stripe DGLE from delivery to scrapping.  Around 1956 the PRR revised the Tuscan red passenger scheme from five stripes to a single wide one with bold lettering.  Some BP20's carried the Tuscan five stripe scheme into the 1960's.  Later in the 1960's up until Penn Central the PRR repainted a number of E7 and E8 in solid Tuscan without stripes, simply applying large PRR keystones on the sides of the bodies.

A more subtle change related to the keystones on the noses of A units.  Initially locomotive numbers were found in the keystone (as with steam locomotives), starting in 1953 the lettering standard was revised to use overlapped PRR letters in the nose keystone, like was the practice with side keystones all along.

Ed,

Thank you for filling in the blanks. I didn't have my references handy to supply the correct dates, but the timeline you laid out sounds correct. Subconsciencely (sp?) I try to forget the late 60's as they were a disgrace, as was the merger.

Buzz

 I just got my first MTH DCC diesel, it ran great on plain DC but it was weird to operate.  I had to toggle power off/on to get it to run, its new and annoying so I'm not sure if I will purchase any more PS3 for a while.

That is a safety feature in Proto 2 and Proto 3.  When the locomotive gets conventional AC or DC power and doesn't see a command signal it will sit in neutral until the voltage is dipped below 6.5 volts.  Since most of these locomotives operate on command controlled layouts where full voltage is normally applied to the track turning on a toggle switch to power up a yard or siding with locomotives on it could have dire consequences if the locomotive took off at max speed as soon as full voltage was applied.

Just dip your throttle below 6 volts after initially bringing up track power and you will have normal conventional control .  That way you wont have to fiddle with toggle switches.

Here is another short video of a pair of 3rd Rail SP E7s on the Morning Daylight.  I re-wired the headlight and Mars light so that they are in the proper positions.  I was also able to get all 16 cars in the consist.  Enjoy.

http://youtu.be/0Eb0uFGz8vY

Beautiful, those SP unit's are something...I love that Mars light.  Thnx for posting it.

Basically, I swapped the wires between the two lights.  Since the number boards and marker lights share the same power source as the headlight, I couldn't just swap the plugs between the two lights.  Eventually, I'm going to have to also re-wire the marker lights, so they can be turned off, and the number boards, so they can stay lit while the headlight is dimmed or turned off. 

Also to be done, clean the orange paint off of the engine room windows and replace the nose herald with a proper one.  The herald on the engine now does not have the proper colors.

Very nice! Now I'm a bit confused; the SP purchased their E7 units in A-B-B sets. Did NOT Sunset/3rd Rail offer their E7 models for SP in the correct A-B-B sets?

I really enjoy operating the Golden Gate E7. Forgive the crazy angle, My wife shot the video..

Despite the little goofs, Mars Light thing its a BLAST to operate.

Is there a TMCC command that works with these E-7s to turn off the interior cab light without effecting other lights?

No.  Since the B-unit is tethered to an A-unit, the best you could do is an A-B set. 

While SP ordered the E-7s in A-B-B sets, they were not always operated that way, especially when assigned to the Daylight.  Once it became dieselized, that train typically featured triple unit diesels, almost always in an A-B-A configuration (whether ALCO PAs or EMD Es, or a mix of the two).  Presumably this made for easier turn around on this daily end-point to end-point train.

I purchased an A-B-A set of 2r SP E-7s to display with the GGD Daylight consist, and am pleased with the appearance, now that I have cleared the windows in the two A units of the orange epoxe resin paint (which was a very tedious undertaking).  Hopefully 

Scott M. will ensure these windows are not painted (or are painted black) in the second phase of E-7 production.

SP Guy,

Nicely done.  What did you use to remove the orange stuff from the windows since I need to do the same thing?

I used Scalecoat Wash Away paint stripper for plastic.  Once removing the chassis from the  body shell, I laid the shell on its side, working on 5 windows at a time. In some cases the paint would loosen up on a particular window in about an hour; some windows took 10 hours (!) for the paint to loosen. So the whole project - two engines, 4 sides took a whole week-end. Have no idea why some windows were so difficult, but they were.

And I should add that I did not leave the windows in the A units clear, because the internals in the A units are shiny and would reflect light.  So I placed black paper over the interior window surface, held in place with electrician (vinyl) tape.  Totally reversible/removable if desired. Thought I would have to treat the B unit similarly, but the visual appearance of the 3 units together didn’t warrant the effort.

They look great SP Guy

GREAT!

As reported by others the exceedingly bright cab light detracts from the model’s prototype appearance.  On my trailing A unit I’ll remove the crew and cut the light leads (B unit interior LEDS as well).  On the lead A unit I’d like to keep the cab light but dim it considerably. (the cab light goes off soon after the unit begins to move).  Has anyone dimmed the cab light using a resistor in series with the LED? If so what value did you find worked?

Side note: One of my A units would only run forward under DCC control, while the sound functioned in both directions! With responsive telephone assistance by Sunset technician Danny, we trouble shot the issue and concluded the decoder was defective. Note the 2 rail Sunset E7 does not use a QSI Solutions Titan DCC decoder - but a physically different/functionally similar licensed QSI Industries board which interfaces with TMCC boards. Rather than ship the unit to Sunset, Danny sent me a replacement control module which I received in 2 days. With care - but minimal difficulty - I removed the old board and plugged in the new one – problem solved…

Ed Rappe

The bright cab light on my 3-rail version stays on all the time.  It would be nice if it went off when moving like yours does.  I'm probably going to apply a dab of black paint to the forward-facing side of the bulb to cut the glare unless there is a better way?