Sunset S Scale Southern Pacific 4-6-2 Pacifics

I thought he dropped that project long ago. 

Scott makes wonderful stuff, but he relies on word of mouth for S Scale, which doesn't go very far.  He also tried a Pioneer Zephyr long ago, before River Raisin did theirs. 

Also, there is still some bad blood remaining regarding Sunset's (not Sunset 3rd Rail) pretty looking but poor running S Scale Challengers and Big Boys from the 1980's.  Guilt by association.  It's not right, but it's still there.

Rusty

I reached out to Scott about a S Gauge SD40-2, he kindly responded, but was less than enthusiastic about S Gauge.  

That being said, if this is a legit project I'm in for the daylight with TMCC and Highrail wheels. I will help spread the word on the various Facebook pages if this is a current project! 

Ben. 

Ya...I don't think this is a current project. 

Ben

I didn't think it was and Scott confirmed as much this morning. I just noticed it was actually still on the Sunset website giving it the appearance of an active project. I don't know cuz I'm not into s scale but all my third rail midels look and run great. It's too bad it died, would've been a very nice model

Scroll down and you will see :

Last updated: December  23 -2009

I updated to be more accurate and not misleading 

Page says it for a production run to be done in 2010

Matt,

These died on the vine years ago for the reasons Rusty mentioned above.  I think I'm one of the very few who actually pre-ordered them, too!  What a shame, as Scott makes great stuff.

CSX Troy and I tried to drum up interest in an Erie Berkshire from Sunset at the time when Scott was making one for O scale. I thought the same as you Matt, S could use more manufacturers. You wouldn't believe the beating we took from the S scale community. Despite the fact that Scott was willing to build in S again most of the feedback I got was that he wasn't welcome in S. I was honestly shocked by that sentiment.  I wonder if things would be different now that there is so little new product being made?

I doubt that the minimums could be met in S though. Scott said he would need 100-150 units to proceed with a project.  There is a group of people trying to get at least 50 preorders for a B&O Q4b Mikado from River Raisin. They've been at it for quite a while and my understanding is that they only have about 10 models on the list so far. I represent 2 of those personally so what does that tell you? 

I'm pretty sure S scale brass is all but dead. We'll see how long Dan hangs on at River Raisin, but he seems to be having a really hard time finding prototypes that will sell 50-100 units anymore. I hope I'm wrong, but I doubt it. 

I'm down for a B&O Q4b as well. I also have two of the Berkshires on order. Those should be rolling in a few months from now.

For a scale that's starving for product seems rather prima Donna like to say a manufacturer is not welcome. It's that attitude that's prolly the issue. I agree that S is the perfect scale but I won't go near it cuz there's nothing available. S helper made some nice stuff and so does American Models but it seems like S is becoming a very niche market within a niche market.

I think it is more likely, that Scott can find more O gauge projects than he can handle, so why bother with S gauge at a lower price point.

Matt Makens posted:

For a scale that's starving for product seems rather prima Donna like to say a manufacturer is not welcome. It's that attitude that's prolly the issue. I agree that S is the perfect scale but I won't go near it cuz there's nothing available. S helper made some nice stuff and so does American Models but it seems like S is becoming a very niche market within a niche market.

Just my opinion:

I love S scale. It is my favorite size. I may even be building an S scale layout very soon. BUT, I think the scale is slowly but surely dying.

I just recently bought in to 2 Rail O and have been into N and HO for years. I've always thought S was great and had a charm all its own and really wanted to get into it but as I got older the tine following and lack of availble products kept me away. I wash it wasn't so, cuz it is the perfect size

I emailed Scott about it and it was a self terminating project. He got 35 reservations and at one time River Rasin was pulling in 175 orders on a loco now he's struggling to get 50. Writings on the wall? We had S at the store I work at and I had to practically give it away to sell it. Sold a bunch of S helper locos for less than a hundred bucks each. Nobody does it in Minnesota except a handful of guys. When I was at WGHOT in San Diego a few years ago there was like 6 or 7 really great and quite large S layouts there. I was really impressed. But up here there's one guy at one show with a 4 by 8 setup and if you say hi to him youre stuck there for an hour.

Johnathan

I think looking at Scott Mann for a model of something like the GS4 Daylight would be more successful, given the obvious limitations of the S matket, I think an icon like the Daylight would have as much success as anything in brass would.  And if there is not a highrail option forget about it.  

Ben 

jonnyspeed posted:

Matt Makens posted:

For a scale that's starving for product seems rather prima Donna like to say a manufacturer is not welcome. It's that attitude that's prolly the issue. I agree that S is the perfect scale but I won't go near it cuz there's nothing available. S helper made some nice stuff and so does American Models but it seems like S is becoming a very niche market within a niche market.

Just my opinion:

I love S scale. It is my favorite size. I may even be building an S scale layout very soon. BUT, I think the scale is slowly but surely dying.

Jonnyspeed:

I dabbled in S Scale a few years back; got into it and then gave it up for those same reasons. And I think I recall you voicing those same concerns back then...it's a shame, really. It may in fact go the way of American TT.

Mark in Oregon

Matt Makens posted:

I emailed Scott about it and it was a self terminating project. He got 35 reservations and at one time River Rasin was pulling in 175 orders on a loco now he's struggling to get 50.

Unfortunately, as I posted earlier, the "Sunset" brand has tarnish on it in S from the Big boys and Challengers from Sunset Models.  Now, I certainly know the difference between Sunset Models and Sunset 3rd-Rail.  I spent many posts on the Yahoo board trying to convince my fellow S Scalers that 3-Rail is superior its predecessor.   However, the tarnish runs deep.

(BTW. I have several 3rd-Rail models and am waiting on the CB&Q Mikado...)

It's interesting that River Raisin can draw more orders for S Scale projects that cost over a grand more than 3rd-Rail's O Scale projects. 

Now, maybe the SP Pacific was the wrong project, don't know.  I honestly don't know what would be the right one. 

Occasionally, I bring up a good old USRA Light Mikado.  I always get the response "Overland did those 25 years ago, you can still find them."  Yeah, right...  Welcome to S and scour the Fests, Sprees and ebay to get what you need.  A winning strategy for sure.  And when I bring up a USRA Heavy Mike, the response is "we had the Light Mike, don't need the Heavy."  Sheesh...

And now there's a contingent that want to push the "Scratchbuilders Scale" thing again.  I keep reminding those folks that scratchbuilding occurs in all the scales for those that want to, it's hardly a selling point.  But the attitude with these folks seems to be that modelers will welcome the need to scratchbuild just about everything.  Riiiight...  Nothing like crawling into the coffin and pulling the nails in from the inside.

Yeah, I get frustrated with some of my S Scale brethren.  Fortunately, we still have American Model to keep the scale alive.  AM's not a perfect company, but it's been the continuity of S for 30+ years.  If AM ever closes it's doors, that will be the final nail.

Rusty

So you're saying S scalers have such a long memory that they'll hold on to a resentment to the point it kills em? I work between 60 and 80 hours a week and I need to be able to take a train out of the box, put it on the track and run it. If I can get any instant gratification then there is no way I would take on something that requires scratch building everything. If I had time to scratch-build, I might consider it project here and there but there's just no way I would want to have to build everything that way, getting a layout done would be a life sentence  and I'm sure that's the sentiment from a lot of people. Judging by Scott's response to my emails about S, S scale is in no danger of having Sunset come play in their sandbox. Too bad for them cuz all my 3rd rail stuff is phenomenal 

Matt Makens posted:

So you're saying S scalers have such a long memory that they'll hold on to a resentment to the point it kills em?

Yes, there are some...  They refuse to look beyond their Opti-Visors...

Rusty

Long memories don't save you. That's too bad cuz Scott is really making some beautiful models that run great.

Matt Makens posted:

Long memories don't save you. That's too bad cuz Scott is really making some beautiful models that run great.

It's not my memory at fault and I'm tired tilting a scratchbuilt S Scale windmills.

Rusty

I'm always tempted to taste the S scale Kool-Aid. Ive been enamored with it since I was little

The S scale bug bites hard.

I have way more 2 rail O than I have S scale, but guess which I'm getting ready to sell off? ;-) Dying or not, I love the size and what I want to do can be done in S. It also fits my space better for the type of railroad I want so there you go. I maybe stupid for getting back in, but I need to make a decision on what to do next. Lord help me, but here I go again...

My childhood was AF, but in 1998 I thought S gauge was history. At that time, I I saw and bought an MTH O gauge NYC Hudson. After some quality disappointments with other MTH purchases, I discovered that S gauge was still alive. I bought American Models and S-Helper Showcaseline. They are both good, but I liked S-Helper better. I just hope that MTH carries on the S-Helper line. If they build it I will buy. At this time I haven't purchased any MTH S gauge because they haven't offered anything in a road name that I'm interested in.

I read this column very often, and would like to give an opinion about something new, that other scales have, but not uS.  So many list their wishes.  It seems that a couple of sure winners for orders, no matter who makes them, would be a Hiawatha set, or a NYC Dreyfus Hudson set, which are icons. and don't you think most all of us would want one? The former AM set is very nice, and similar, but I think a Dreyfus Hudson would compliment it, and would not really be redundant, to me.  Seems like a no-brainer to sell all of these sets, or to get enough orders to go forward with new products. DanD.

jonnyspeed posted:

The S scale bug bites hard.

I have way more 2 rail O than I have S scale, but guess which I'm getting ready to sell off? ;-) Dying or not, I love the size and what I want to do can be done in S. It also fits my space better for the type of railroad I want so there you go. I maybe stupid for getting back in, but I need to make a decision on what to do next. Lord help me, but here I go again...

That's the real secret of S: It's like the Hotel California:

"You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave...."

Rusty

Matt Makens posted:

Long memories don't save you. That's too bad cuz Scott is really making some beautiful models that run great.

Matt,

You are 100% correct about Scott's stuff.  Here is the problem, from what I have seen in the 6 years or so that I have been in S scale, it seems to have been dominated by about 5 - 6 very influential modelers with big mouths and even bigger egos.  One in particular, runs his own forum and the others STRONGLY support another one.  What has happened is they have a grudge against Scott that goes back some 20 - 25 years ago to models like the Flying Yankee being advertised but not produced and decisions that were made by Mort Mann, not Scott.  To your point about how good Scott's stuff is, it falls on deaf ears because they will never allow themselves to admit how good his stuff is in O scale and how good it could be for them.  They simply do not care that what Sunset 3rd Rail does now is completely different from the Sunset Models of 30 years ago.  S scale is THEIR scale and THEY say what gets made and who makes it.  

What they do not like is that Scott does not come to them first and get their "blessing" on what he should make and he does not go through THEM when he tries to use word of mouth to advertise something.  He even attempts to use this forum instead of theirs!!!!  GASP!!!  I know you have been in this hobby for some time and I think you have been to enough rodeos to know that every brass importer on the face of this earth does business in a similar way: get enough reservations and then go forward with production.  If not enough reservations are accumulated, the project gets dropped. So what is the REAL issue here?  When you boil down all the objections, it comes down to this: loss of control for the Opti-Visor crowd.  That is what this whole problem is really about.  I've been involved in 2 rail O, S scale, Post War O, Flyer and HO for almost 30 years now and I can truly say that I have never seen a scale so completely dominated by such a small, vocal minority the way S scale has been for the last 20 years or so.  You can see where that has got us, IMO, S scale will probably become the OO of this era.

But even with that in mind, I will still attempt to end this on a positive note and recommend that you try it.  I did about 6 years ago and still like what I found.  The key is to like what S scale is and what has already been done.  If it can check enough boxes for you to give it a try, then jump in.  Overall the quality of stuff is very high, just about everything runs well and the size is PERFECT.   Lastly, I would say not to give up - there are some of us who would still really like to see Scott make something in S.  Personally, I hope he sees this and gives guys like us a chance to buy something from him in S scale.

P.S. Here is a link to a layout that Jonnyspeed and I visited a few years ago at the NASG convention in Chattanooga.  I hope it illustrates just how good S scale can be, regardless of its internal politics:

https://ogrforum.com/t...een---and-it-is-in-s

Hi, Some really nice folks turned me on to S Scale, spread the word and it just didn't get the numbers needed. 

I don't think there was any bad intentions by anyone else. It's just a scale that doesn't have an audience.  

I wish others the best of luck. Hard to find the sweet spot these days.

Scott

Troy, that layout is awesome and Id love to see it. S is the perfect size and I was perusing the AM site last night and you guys almost got me. Happens every time I go there. Its too bad politics and ego get the best of a good thing. Colt made some bad designs but people still buy them. GM has made some bad cars and they still sell tons of vehicles. Heck Allison even made a bad transmission, they only made one bad one but even the gold standard doesn't meet expectations every time. Sounds like the big proponents of the scale are its own worst enemy. I think that I will try out some S at some point but right now Ive got other things I need to waste my money on

Scott

Thanks for chiming in, this forum is quite a resource to have the ability to interact with the players in the hobby like 3rail.  

That being said, is it cost prohibitive to announce a project if there ultimately is no follow through on the reservation numbers? It would seem it has been 7 years since you gave S its last shot. 

I had asked you about an SD40-2, but the SP Daylight seems to be the most requested steamer I have seen over the past few years. 

Both AF-L and AM have passenger cars that would support the daylight....

...I'm just sayin'.....

Thanks again for chiming in. 

Ben

The high cost is a major factor in not getting the number of reservations that an importer would like to see before embarking on a new S scale project. I know that I certainly cannot afford to lay out over $1500 for an S scale Pacific (or any other loco, for that matter). Added to that is the fact that there is a question concerning quality because previous products had issues, then it is not surprising that there were few reservations placed.

The SD40/SD40-2 is another question, however. This has been on of the most requested S scale locos for as long as I can remember (at least 30 years), yet no manufacturer has even considered it. I think one of the reasons is that there is less money to be made producing a diesel (even at the same percentage of profit), than there would be with a much more expensive steam loco.

Bill in FtL

Bill Nielsen posted:

 

The SD40/SD40-2 is another question, however. This has been on of the most requested S scale locos for as long as I can remember (at least 30 years), yet no manufacturer has even considered it. I think one of the reasons is that there is less money to be made producing a diesel (even at the same percentage of profit), than there would be with a much more expensive steam loco.

Bill in FtL

I'm not so sure about that.  Most folks would likely buy one steam locomotive of a certain type, but multiples of a diesel.  Road diesels look good in pairs, even better in triples.

While only the SP operated the GS4 and the N&W operated the J-class Northern, practically every class one railroad in the US and Canada operated SD40's or SD40-2's.

Rusty

Rusty Traque posted:

Bill Nielsen posted:

 

The SD40/SD40-2 is another question, however. This has been on of the most requested S scale locos for as long as I can remember (at least 30 years), yet no manufacturer has even considered it. I think one of the reasons is that there is less money to be made producing a diesel (even at the same percentage of profit), than there would be with a much more expensive steam loco.

Bill in FtL

I'm not so sure about that.  Most folks would likely buy one steam locomotive of a certain type, but multiples of a diesel.  Road diesels look good in pairs, even better in triples.

While only the SP operated the GS4 and the N&W operated the J-class Northern, practically every class one railroad in the US and Canada operated SD40's or SD40-2's.

Rusty

I would buy multiples of just about anything that Scott would make. Steam or diesel. I am literally sitting here waiting for someone to take my money...

+ 1

Did you guys properly vet your request thru all the S scale approval channels?

Matt

Thats a fair question...

I yearly talk with the Lionel reps at Trainfest (Milwaukee) and I bring in the dead horse and put on my show.  To their credit, a small number of things over the past 10 years I have asked for have shown up (all reprints). I have sent countless emails to the "talktous" portion of the website.  

I have talked with Andy E at the same show but the reception from MTH is even less enthusiastic than Lionel.  All the excitement from MTH seemed to fizzle out in about a year of the announcement of MTH getting the SHS goods.  

I recently reached out to Scott Mann about an SD40-2, and as I said, he politely said he was not interested.  

While I have never reached out to Raisen River (or River Raisen) most of the stuff the, make is scale wheel D.C., outta my interests.  

I have never reached out to American Models but I'm sure I would not be the first guy to say "what about and SD40?"

And that's about all there is...

Ben. 

Fox Models is showing S a little love. Can you imagine if a company like ScaleTrains.com brought out something in S? Would you be surprised to know that while they have no plans for S currently, they had discussed it?

jonnyspeed posted:

Fox Models is showing S a little love. Can you imagine if a company like ScaleTrains.com brought out something in S? Would you be surprised to know that while they have no plans for S currently, they had discussed it?

Talk, as they say, is cheap.

Rusty