Super Streets

Bill I've run my MTH 2 truck trolley through a D16 return loop w/o any problems.  It will slow down slightly on the curves but I figure that's prototypical anyway.

The MTH trolley's with two-axle trucks that swivel will run okay on the D16 curves, but they run smoother on D21 if you can fit that.  Two-axle trolleys like one Lionel I have - no swiveling obviously - run well enough on the D21 but really don't like the D16. 

Chris:

 

To answer your questions, a circle of Super Streets D-16 curves measures 14 5/8” center rail to center rail.  The 16 in the “D-16” name apparently comes from the 16¾” overall diameter measured from the outside of a section to the outside of the section across from it.  That is probably why they said 17” in what you read.

 

The only other size curve that was offered by K-Line/Lionel was the D-21 curve which has corresponding measurements of 19 1/8” and 21½”. 

 

As you probably know the successor product is EZ-streets by Williams.  I don’t have any of the WBB EZ-streets with which to compare but from what I’ve read they offer the same diameters as the former K-Line/Lionel.

 

I run 2-truck MTH PCC trolleys and they will run on the D-16’s.

 

HTH,

 

Bill 

K-line streets are darker grey while the WBB are lighter...and neither of them ever made the switches that were teasing us long ago...all that's out there now are a few wyes still for switching. I just got 3 more for $11 each{I now have 4 wyes- woohoo!}

Funny how WBB is coming out with new vehicles this year but still no switches...R&D is asleep at the wheel or finacing is too tight handed to let us expand our roads...

Well, for me, the new cars are what I want most: they look to be really spectacular cars.  Can't wait.

Bill is correct:  The Bachmann WBB versions are the same as the earlier versions, except for the color.

 

MTH PCCs also have proven to be my best runners on SuperStreets and E-Z Streets.  My preference, where possible, is to use the D-21 curves.

Thanks for all the info, guys!

 

Next question: How difficult is it to create electrical blocks with SS or EZS? Did they make provision to do so easily, or not?

 

Chris

LVHR

One problem I've had with isolated blocks with 'Streets, is electrical connectivity.  With locos and train rolling stock, you almost always have lots of wheels on an isolated block: even a short piece of track probably has four wheels on each rail (two wheels each on two trucks from one car) and a longer block - say two or three sections - has many more wheels on it normally because it has several cars or a loco and tender on it, etc..  There is usually a lot of weight to push those wheels down firmly and assure good contact so the connection between outer rails by all those wheels is firmly made.

 

That is not always the case with 'Streets vehicles.  There is usually just one van or truck and it has only four relatively small wheels.   There is likely to be at least one traction tire, which makes  connectivity of that back axle a bit problematic -- some 'Streets vehicles have two traction tires which makes the rear axle pretty undependable as a connection across the outer rails.  Finally, all these wheels are  pushed down on the track with less weight than in locos - and if the spring-steel center rollers are not adjusted right, particularly the front one, the front axle is partially pushed up off the track by too much center pickup spring tension. The result can be that as the vehicle moves into the isolated block, it just does not establish a firm connection between the two outer rails to activate the accessory or switching you want: the connection doesn't work at all, or it "stutters" - connected for a split second then not, then again, etc.  Some vehicles, particularly those with two traction tires and the type of center rollers with a spring steel arm with and a bit too much tension on the front center pickup, will be worse than others.

 

This was an annoying enough problem that I gave up using isolation blocks to stage those loops of mine on which I run cars, vans, and other two-axle vehicles.  I plan (but have not yet built) a control on my downtown loop that will instead use a tiny infra-red beam switch (found it on Amazon) to detect a bus and halt it at a bus-stop for a while. 

 

I have built in three isolation section on my long (9393 lane feet) country road, but here I run homemade 18 wheelers, and with 2.5 times as many wheels I'm hoping the isolation blocks will work well.

Hi Lee:

 

Good point and thanks for bringing that up.  No question that you are the recognized expert on using motorized model automobiles and trucks on Super Streets.  However, my Super Streets operating experience is much different as 90% of the time I’m running Railking PCC Streetcars, much larger and heavier vehicles and each with two 4-wheel trucks.  Some of the other 10% is with a K-Line PRR van which has one traction tire.  I have experienced intermittent and unreliable operation with stuttering as you described when it travels on the Super Streets insulated outside RAILS due to its light weight and small wheels (and only 4 wheels).  No such problems with the PCC’s.

 

But let’s distinguish between isolated CENTER-RAIL electric blocks and insulated OUTSIDE control rail operations.  It sounds like your problems were confined to the latter as the wheels and axles were not making sufficient contact with both outside rails to provide a constant enough electric current for relay triggering or signaling.  I think your plan of using infrared detectors will solve those problems.  I understand that’s what many HO operators use on their layouts with light rolling stock and only 2 rails.      

 

But have you had any problems with insulated or isolated CENTER-RAIL electrical blocks?  I think that was really the reason for Chris’s question.  It seems like there shouldn’t be an issue in that situation because it’s just another piece of track with two live ground rails but with the center rail connected to a different power source.  My K-line van runs fine on those sections.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

I haven't had problems with isolated center rail on 'Streets but then I have not tried that.  I've used the isolated outer rails (or attempted to) several times to detect and operate traffic signals and operate blocking relays for cross-street traffic.  You are correct that it works with trolleys (even Lionel's two-axle trolley is heavy enough to work well) but not with 'Streets vehciles. 

What happened is that Lionel had sued K-Line and K-Line stopped working on the development of the switches for Super Streets and Bachmann did nothing except to buy up the rights to Super Streets and now call it E Z Streets. Don't know for sure if there will ever be any switches for E Z Streets.

There is most likely more involved but that's the basics about E Z Streets.

 

Lee Fritz

I'm not sure that the folks at Bachmann appreciate how much E-Z Streets sales potential is being lost because there are no basic left and right switches available.  Really kind of baffling.

Well if someone from that company monitors the forum here is no 2 cents.  No switches, no need to purchase anything.  A "Y" and a R & L 21" turnout is all that they need to produce.

My understanding is that Kader is Bachmann and they ended up with Klines molds because they were making the product and ended up with them in the bankruptcy. Kline by Lionel was a test to keep the name alive. In the meantime Bachmann bought Williams and has rented molds to RMT and Lionel. Those companies have rights to mold those pieces but Kader/Bachmann owns the molds. This is my understanding of the situation.

       

Allan, Bill,

 

I do agree with both of you regarding the unfortunate lack of switches. Having them available would enhance the marketability of the product tremendously.

 

My game plan at the moment, is to make a dog bone with the ends curled up. I plan to run MTH 2 truck or maybe even a WWB 2 truck trolley on this configuration. I think being able to run 2 trolleys automatically with station stops would be a plus, hence the questions regarding insulated rails. At this point, I'm not considering EZS vehicles, although that could change. I've attached a crude drawing of what I have in mind.

 

Chris

LVHR

I would say that based on the Bachmann ad in the back of OGR with the 50s cars for Super ez streets that the company is committed to the product.

I think WBB will prove to be the best thing that happened to 'Streets.  I'm very excited about those '50s cars and other things WBB will bring out.

Chris:

 

That’s what I have done running multiple PCC’s except that the stops are manual and I use insulated rails triggering relays to cut the power to the trailing section to prevent the second one from running in to the stopped one.  My dog-bone has a double track going down to a single track to cross a bridge and then back to the double track so there I use automatic stops using insulated rails triggering relays.  But remember that WBB discontinued the insulated track section so I guess you would have to make your own.      

 

I take it that on your drawing that “16C” means a D-16 curve?  If you are planning to run double truck WBB trolleys, are they the Peter Witt type?  If so, according to their documentation they will “navigate” D-21 curves which likely means that they won’t run on D-16 curves.

 

HTH,

 

Bill

Lee & Silver Lake:

 

Until I see some evidence that they are developing badly needed new TRACK components, I very strongly disagree that they are committed to the entire E-Z Streets product line (track as well as vehicles).  Why have they discontinued many of the track components that K-Line by Lionel offered including insulated rail sections and Y-switches as I posted earlier?   

 

All that they have demonstrated so far is that they are committed to developing new vehicles to sell to operators with EXISTING Streets layouts which in most cases are Super Streets, not E-Z Streets! 

 

I hope it changes for the better so that I could agree with you guys.

 

Bill

They have to start somewhere.  I imagine it will be a long process, and some time before a lot of new products are out.  All the manufacturers, particularly Bachman (which is chained to the Chinese problems more than most) will take some time to get their stuff in order given all the labor turbulence in China.  But they will get past that.  WBB has one big difference in their perspective on 'STreets from K-Line or Lionel: they know they will own EZ-Street going forward.   Lionel had it for a while but had no incentive to invest in new addtions to the line: they always knew it was temporary - no use investing it new additions to a product line you will not keep.  But WBB knows it has 'Streets from now on.  I have every confidence that they will develop more track pieces, more vehicles, etc.  But they have definitely made the right decision. New track pieces included half curve pieces and switches would be nice, but cars: yes - cars are the thing.  No one ever brought out cars for 'Streets.  K-Line advertised a Camaro early on but I've never actually seen one.  All the vehicles ever made for 'Streets are trucks, vans, etc.  A car is the product I think is most needed.  I think they made the right choice on the first thing to bring out. 

Williams by Bachmann is keenly aware of the need for turnouts......

I kind of thought Jack might pop-up here at some point!  

 

He is well connected at Bachmann...very well connected!  

Nice to see someone is paying attention.  This forum is probably the best market research available for the manufacturers.  They could probably conduct online focus groups fairly easily right here.

Ok, aside from the dire need for turnouts...what has anyone done with cracking open a streets vehicls and poking aound...it's so not like me to have opened mine up yet just to see what's in there, but I dabble in 0n30 so installing a DCC control board and even a sound board as well, wouldn't be too difficult.....it just leaves two problems;

1- one would have to run their "streets" in some kind of DCC only...no AC.

2- finding a sound board and a speaker that'll fit..now that would be too cool having sound and control together!

The rails could be powered same as the AC system it was intended for- center pos/outers ground and folks could control 10-20 vehicles at a time.

 

I have 3 things going for me for the above idea;

1- a shorty pensy school bus

2- a dynamis "and" EZ commander

3- a spare diesel DCC sound board and small speaker intended for an 0n30 diesel build...it can still wind up there later on...

 

I'll crack the bus open tonight to get an idea of whats in there...anyone else gonna try too?{tell me I'm not the only crazy one here...} 

Lionel made some TMCC vans for 'Streets, if you have not seen them.  No sound but they run with control mode or conventional.  They are either the Ford van or the UPS-style delivery van, which has a bit more room inside.  I don't know how hard they are to find but Tom's Train Station in Cary NC has two or three in stock at $115 each. 

Ah, I didn't know that{TMCC controlled}....learn something new everyday here!

I got my bus on close out for only $24, add some kind of DCC controller w/sound for roughly $85ish, a speaker for $15 and it's in the same ballpark....but with sound.

is there ez streets or super streets ready to run sets out there?  I did the google thing and only found pieces.

Many Super streets items are available HERE.

Mark

The top item in that link is a TMCC equipped van, although it is the smaller van and probably has no room for a speaker.  I'm not sure that even the largest stock 'Streets vehicle will have room for an effective speaker.  One of my goals down the road is to put a good size speaker in one of my 18-wheeler trailers.

Some SuperStreets and E-Z Streets components seem to be rare as hens' teeth to find...D21 curves, in particular.  Glad I stocked-up back when the earlier stuff was rather plentiful.

Allan, I just googled and "a few" are out there...but as you said, not many. Found a few more wyes too{4 is enough for now}.

 

Lee, my bachmann 2-6-6-2 has a small speaker in her and the wife complained that it was too loud from 2 rooms away{it was in an open "L" actually}. Find a decent one with the bass port and enclosure and you should be surprised- and of course, go big as you can.

I just finished looking at the upcoming sedans...ok, but rather non descript{beggars can't be choosers}...what's the wheel base on one of your semis Lee?{to 1st drive wheel?}. I'm looking at mine and thinking she'd make a good single axle drive tractor...maybe a nice scale mack B-61 cab on this chassis...suppose I should take it apart 1st to see what I'm up against before I get all excited...

..speaking of drive wheels, why is it that some vehicles have rubber tires like my bus and some are train wheels?...wierd!

There are a variety of different chassis and wheel types that have been used in the past with 'Streets.  Rubber tires (small bus), tiny wheels (vintage truck), and the van has nice straight edge wheels with "realistic" wheel covers, but some 'Streets vehciles have what look to be pretty much standard "train" wheels.  The new Bachman sedans look like they have those "train" wheels: at least if you look at the ad inside the back cover of the latest OGR.  That, and the painted windshields and windows, makes me less enthusiastic that I could have been about those sedans, but time will tell. 

 

I described how I make the 18-wheelers in the past here.  Any more, when I make a tractor trailer,  the motor is in the trailer and the cab is a dummy - but usually the wheelbase is shorter on the tractor than any stock 'Streets vehicles, but just a bit: the shortening is not needed to make it work, but to make it look right. 

 

I think you could say that Lee has definitely opened up a few vehicles and poked around..and then some.  As to decoders with sound, been there, done that, plan on doing more.  Here's a link to a a video I did for a  thread last summer.

 

Modified Superstreets Vehicles 

 

Here's the original thread I posted this in (has some additional pictures).

 

Larry

 

Another example of a ‘Streets item that Williams by Bachmann has dropped as both K-Line and K-Line by Lionel had made ready-to-run Super Streets sets with trolleys or trucks. 

 

Bill

First, I am very happy to see others experiment and modify 'Streets.  Its fun, and a great platform for creativity.

I have taken apart every type of 'Streets vehicle I can get my hands on.  They are all basically the same chassis design.  Two important differences are the type of center pickups - very early K-line vehicles, the ones with metal chassis, had elxcellent vertical-movement center pickups (tiny spring-loaded pickups that telescoped up and down, in place) and TMCC versions my Lionel and WBB now have something about like the standard lever-action spring loaded center pickups on quality locos.  All others had that cheap and fragile spring-steel arm and tiny roller pickup, which is problematic. 

 

The other important difference is the wheels: there are types:

"trainlike" - identical to those on clown cars, on early K-line and some WBB now - the worst type of "streets wheels from a realistic appearance standpoint.  They look like train wheels.  Apparently, WBB is using these on the new sedans due out next month, just painting the center hub.  Ugh.

"tiny wheels" - those on the "vintage truck" (looked sort of Model A like) - these are the only 'Streets wheels that are the proper diameter for scale cars.  they have a bit of tire edge molded into them and wire-wheel like hubs.  I've bought up all I can for future diecast car conversions (about eight).

"van wheels" - used on many of the Ford panel vans and some of the UPS-type delivery vans.  These have a very square profile like train wheels but a chrome plastic car-like hub that makes them acceptable. 

"rubber wheels" as on the bus (see below).

 

The "bus" is quite interesting, because: a) it's scale except for length, b) its the only 'Streets vehicle that depends on rubber tires for traction (they seem to be designed to not make contact with the road surface, but instead so the inside edge of the tires grabs the outer edges of the rail like a traction tire does) , c) due to those tires it has a wider track than other 'Streets vehicles by about 7/16 inch, d) its track and tires are of a size that really fits scale "big trucks" and construction vehicles best. 

 

I have bashed a number of 'Streets vehicles (UPS van into an armored personnel carrier, the bus into a military scout vehicle, etc.), and early on many times used the stock chassis with the stock motor and a shorted chassis for conversion of diecast 1:43 cars.  But anymore, I use only the axles, making the chassis myself and using larger, flywheel motors where they will fit, and better center pickups and adding a gearbox where it will fit.  A lot of work but particularly the flywheel makes for a better runner.

 

 

I have used Super Streets for some time and found that the 10 inch straight sections have both connections for power to the track, and that by removing the center rail pin you can insulate the section of track that has both center rail pins taken out. The curve sections only have the outside rail power terminal underneath.

Was at Strasburg PA about two weeks ago and bought; 1) some Super Street pins to go to tubular track, 2) Super Street to O gauge adapter track, these are marketed as either K-Line or K-Line by Lionel.

 

If you are looking for older in stock Super Streets, try either Trainworld.com or Western Depot, look under K-Line or K-Line track or under Lionel. Not sure as some vendors list the Super Streets as K-Line and some as Lionel.

 

FYI, the color difference between Super Streets and E Z Streets is not that big a difference, sort of like new pavement verses old pavement on a road, saw it at Strasburg model train shop next door to the Choo Choo Barn.

 

Lee Fritz

Bill,

 

Thanks for pointing out the limitation on the Peter Wilt cars. I was indeed contemplating using them. So that leads me to the D21 curves, which Allan says are scarce as hen's teeth. Great! (NOT!) So either I scrounge up a bunch of D21 pieces (sounds like "Good luck with that!" ) or I give up on the PWs and stick with MTH PCCs and old style trolleys. (My "16C" designation is indeed for a D16 piece.) It's interesting that WBB states a 21" curve limit, and sticks to it, apparently, while MTH states 27" minimum, and you have successfully run on a 16" curve. I guess the only way to find out is try it.

 

Chris

LVHR