Honestly, it isn't as good as it should be. I have N, HO, O, and large scale equipment, and the O scale stuff runs worse at slow speed than anything else. Obviously my stuff represents a tiny bit of the overall selection available in those scales.

 

Jeff C

I'm interested in this topic.

 

Hopefully bob2 will jump in here with some suggestions.  I remember a thread some time ago discussing gear boxes, ratios and other items that all effect low speed performance.

 

 

"Switching layout; 2-rail slow speed performance?"

 

   I'd start with an Atlas SW8-9 style switcher if you want the best slow speed operation. If you want a road switcher the older single motor Weaver RS-3 Alcos or GP 38-2 single motor are great slow speed locos. The Weavers might need to have their gears replaced as they tend to crack over the years but it's a simple task to replace them. Other  older 2 rail single motor locos such as GMC/All Nation switchers, Central locomotive works, or Kemtron brass locos run fine too but are harder find. If you see something you like feel free to ask about it's running qualities....DaveB 

Not sure I can help.  I think what you want is a good mechanism, coupled with some sort of command-control with a feedback loop.  In the end, battery power will no doubt be the ultimate answer, since dirty track can affect slow operation a lot more than fast.

 

At one point I knew most of the math for feedback systems, but flying airliners erased all but the vestiges of specialized engineering courses from my mind.

This I believe in my opinion has a lot to do with the buyers that control our O scale market. The lion share of these guys are not that interested in authentic scale speed ops and more about depleting coal loads and 230 SMPH performance. Did I mention screechy loud sounds from a muffled cone speaker inside a die cast shell?

I have Märklin Mini-Club Z scale models that perform better at scale speeds than the Atlas China Drive units I own. It's just the nature of the beast.

Rest assured there are models manufactured in O scale that perform well beyond what you ask for. Sadly these are not mainstream models like Kato, Athearn Genesis, BLI, Blackstone, and the rest of the bunch that are relatively affordable and easy to buy in N, HO, etc.




       

Coming from N scale spoiled me with the seemingly otherworldly running of Kato and Bachman Spectrum and Atlas; I have decade old locomotives that ran great at the time and things got only better. My few inexpensive G scale switchers are wonderful; imagine my chagrin discovering all things are maybe not what they should in O-2 rail.  Could it be safe to assume this is due to 2-rail being in relative infancy and smaller market?...similar to N back in the early 80's with Con-Cor and Rivarrosi (to name a few). Yes, I'll need small switchers SW/RS-3/GP with the finest operating characteristics; I won't be doing DCC for a while.

VERY critical question for anyone considering O scale for use in a switching layout environ.

 

Many years ago, once I started migrating away from traditional 3-rail  to attempting some "hi-rail" in O 3-rail, I too, faced the disappointing performance for switching. Research indicated it wasn't any better in the 2 rail side of O, either.

 

To make a long story short: After more than a decade's absence, I have returned to HO and have been blown away with the performance of ALL the locomotive offerings I have purchased in the past 6 months. (Right at a dozen locomotives so far.) I'm also quickly getting spoiled to factory installed DCC/Sound.  Wow.

 

I really feel for those of you that are having to deal with drive mechanisms that simply aren't designed for smooth, very low speed performance.  Such a shame because the visual impact of O scale is unequalled.

Wholeheartedly agree with you Andre.  I never left HO, but I am continually blown away with the quality of sound of current released locomotives.  I just picked up two Atlas Great Northern S2 switchers, with DCC Loksound.  Simply outstanding runners, and great sound to boot. 

 

Funny how HO can manage to show horn in a single motor drive, decoder, and speaker into just about anything, but current production diseasels from just about everybody but Sunset sticks with the two motor drives. 

 

 

Regards,

Jerry Zeman

Jerry:

 

Me too!  I purchased two of the new Atlas S-2's w/LokSound.  Superb running and the LokSound is simply the best I've heard to date.  I like it far better than Soundtraxx Tsunami's version of an Alco. My S-2's are undecorated, destined to become Kansas City Terminal engines.  I'm getting ready to reserve the upcoming HH660 w/sound to also become a KCT unit.

 

Like you, it's amazing that HO seems to offer the best performing engines of any scale. I've tried O, S std, Sn3, looked at N, G... did I miss one?  Anyway, of all the scales, contemporary HO engines perform the best. (I was shocked to see that my newest HO stuff actually would creep slower and smoother than my S scale SHS EMD switchers that I used to have... and I thought they were the bomb!!)

 

Hopefully, the O scale mfg'ers will pull their heads out of their rears and get these O 2-rail guys some excellent performing switchers/engines. Can you imagine how kick-butt a nicely detailed O scale (2 rail) S-2 that could creep along smoothly at less than 1 SMPH could look???

 

Oh, and here's a pic of one of the KCT's S-2's...

 

 

 

 

I purchased a Bachmann G scale 4-6-0 a few months back to set up at Christmas on a 8' circle of brass track.  I'm using an old Aristo-Craft Train Engineer (in PWC mode) and it runs fine at slow speed, much better than my O scale (3-rail) engines.

 

I also have an old (1990s) 3-rail Williams/Samhongsa brass 4-8-4 (N&W 611) that will run at 1 smph, after I converted it to PS2, running on my DCS equipped layout.  I think it's due to the 43:1 gear ratio, but it's a bit noisy (still have some drive train vibration, I think) at speeds above 30 smph.

 

All my HO stuff is packed away, but it seems like they all ran fairly well back last century (packed them up around 1995).  I know all the Athearn diesels I had I put nickle-silver wheels on them, why don't we see nickle-silver wheels in O?

I switch with MTH steam locomotives in 2 rail and they are perfect slow runners, much better than the diesel ones

Yeah, I have to admit the draw of HO is the high level of detail and design, selection of models and fantastic running qualities, but how do you get away from the real draw of O scale, which is the size. Even S doesn't do it for me like O scale can. I've wavered over the years acquiring pieces of N, HO and S equipment only to sell it off and continue with O scale. I enjoy building and the smaller gauges just frustrate me.

 

But, as long as the major O manufacturers cater to the 3R crowd we won't see any serious improvement bringing O closer to current HO quality products. And, HO is a much, much larger segment of the hobby, so manufacturers can afford to push the edge in technology without losing their backside. Every gauge has it's plusses and minuses so we just choose which one works best for us. HO is a wonderful size it just doesn't work for me.

 

butch

I have many of the single motor drive locos from the 80s-90s-20s- and I think they all run well at low speed.    I have a few of the "newer" models that are 2 motor (the 3-rail rage) and they as rule run much worse - - the gearing is too high and in some cases there is no reduction gearing at all, just a worm shaft directly on the axle.   You car has a transmission with reduction gearing to allow the motor to drive the car at low speeds and use its torque, model motors need the same.

 

I think easily available good runners are the Atlas O SW switcher(their only single motor drive I am aware of), the Older weaver stuff with single motor drives as mentioned above, and the more recent brass kit built or imports.    I have a pair of USH GP35s that run like swiss watches.    the carworks brass imports of about a decade ago or more used weaver single motor drives which I think are just great and easy to maintain.   

 

For steam stay away from the diecast stuff made first for 3 rail.   

 

I guess the primarily rule of thumb would be look for a single motor drive with reduction gearing.   and if it is weaver, a company called Hi-Sierra offered a replacemnet sprocket tower that cut the speed in half.

 

With clean track and good power supplies, real O scale runs as well as any in my opinion.   I operate on N, HO, and O layouts in my round robin group and get to see a lot of stuff.

Atlas SW-8.

along the lines of Jim's comments. a 'single' motored horizontal drive is what to look for, ala: Atlas SW series, early Weaver drives, today's Sunset drives.

 

the Weaver drives can be made better by increasing the size of the lower sprocket on the trans tower. the same can be said for a belt drive.

 

I have found that a robust DCC decoder makes all the difference. my Sunset engines can crawl at less than walking speed.

 

of course Bob's comment is the most effective. clean wheels and track make all the difference at slooooow speeds.

 

Pat,

Atlas SW loco.  Out-of-the-box performance on a quality DC pack should be more than acceptable for switching duties.  Going to DCC would be the ultimate.

 

I upgraded a Rich Yoder 44 ton loco with a NWSL worm and the largest wormgear I could install w/o scraping the ties...tacked on a DCC decoder and that loco ran mighty sweet.

 

Always been a shortline fan and recently switched to S scale.  Currently have Smoky Mountain Model Works 44 and 70 ton kits in the works.

 

I am interested in your photos/video of the MDDE(?)...is there a link or email?

 

Thanks,

A fascinating discussion on the Atlas "O" Forum circa 2012 mirroring this very topic as well as design/market implications.

 

http://forum.atlasrr.com/forum...c.asp?TOPIC_ID=70406

Such a shame.

 

FWIW: The last comment regarding $300 HO engines - In today's market, full MSRP isn't a practical price point for a retailer to actually move product. Expect to do much, much better. 

I agree the Atlas SW would be great for your application.

 

Some time after I got into the 2 rail side of things I too became enamored with the idea that a locomotive with superior performance should run at 0.5 SMPH all day long. I despised the China drives but since then I have made my peace with them. I do wish that the companies that sell 2 rail China drive locomotives (MTH and Atlas) would change their gearing a little for better slow speed performance. I have no need for engines that can run at 80 SMPH. The faster one runs their trains the smaller the layout appears to be, so slow speed performance should be even more important in a larger scale like O.

 

I have never worked for the railroad but I have watched a lot of film. What I've noticed is when locomotives are switching cars they do not spend very much time running at 0.5 SMPH.  By my estimate it is a short time, maybe 3-5 seconds, and a short distance. So what has become more important to me is the way the locomotive transitions from 0 SMPH to 0.5 SMPH and then to 1 SMPH. Most prototype switchers after they reach that speed, speed up to around (again my estimate by watching film) 5-10 MPH. Time is money on the railroads and if the switcher ran 0.5 or even 1 MPH all day it would take a heck of a lot longer for the switcher to get its work done. Does HO kick the other scales butts in this area? I would say yes but I don't have any new HO to compare to. Can O scale improve? Especially the China Drives? Definitely. MTH may even be able to improve the transition by writing new software but I would prefer a gear ratio change as I think that would make it even easier for the motor and the electronics to get the job done.

 

I agree with Milepost148. MY MTH steam engines have better slow speed performance than my MTH diesels.

 

I don't see battery power coming soon to any of the larger 3 rail/2 rail manufacturers. I would rather see super capacitors or a battery back-up to help locomotives go over dirty track. Maybe some smaller manufacturer will offer battery power factory installed but I doubt it. We'll see.

 

As bob2 would say:

OPINION.

 

 

The Atlas SW series (Pat Kelly, there is a 2-rail on eBay right now) is the way to go for switching as well as the Atlas MP15DC.

 

The SW's work very well, as others have commented, on DC or with an added DCC decoder.

 

I have an Atlas MP15DC and ripped out the early QSI sound (which was pretty anemic) and added a Loksound Select Direct sound decoder (designed for the HO market) and added two speakers within the shell and it runs smoothly and sounds much better.

 

 

As others have posted, look for a single motor flywheel drive with all wheel pickup and you will generally meet or exceed the performance you experienced in the smaller scales. DCC further improves performance.  Adding a simple Stay Alive/keep alive capacitor circuit to a DCC decoder virtually eliminates dirty track issues in all but the most extreme circumstances.  

 

A great disappointment to many 2 rail O scalers was when AtlasO decided to switch from a single motor drive , to the twin motor "China Drive" setup up used by virtually all 3 rail importers up to Sunset Third Rail's entry into the diesel market.   I've owned over 30 O scale diesels and IMO the AtlasO EMD's are hands down the best value for performance, detail, and price in an O scale 2 rail diesel switcher.

 

Ed Rappe

Hi Hudson J1e:

 

You are correct that in railroading we don't typically run less than 1 MPH. Quick exceptions to my statement:

 

* Making a very careful joint on a curved track where the couplers are having trouble lining up. One must creep in ready to stop at a moments notice if the couplers are going to close into a baldhead or bypass (instead of gathering and making a joint).

 

* Starting a cut/train that is at the tonnage ability for the switch engine being used.  It may take quite a while to get up over 1 MPH with lots of watching the amp gauge, working the throttle and independent brake to hold adhesion. 

 

* Also, many are the times I've surmounted grades at an industry with heavy cuts at less than 1 MPH and fighting for every inch I can get.

 

Back to models:

What I've noticed over the years is that a model's slowest smooth speed will determine its ability to start slow enough and move smoothly up into the operating ranges of 5-10 MPH to look convincingly "real".  It's starting lurch that I detest the most.

 

Thus, if a models slowest smooth running is, say, 4 MPH, then you're likely going to have some lurching to get there.  Slowest continuous speed is very important to my way of enjoying model trains.

 

Pertinent to this thread:

 

Hard to grasp why Atlas would go with such weirdness as China drives for the O scale when their HO line are superb runners.  Go figure??

"Hard to grasp why Atlas would go with such weirdness as China drives for the O scale when their HO line are superb runners.  Go figure??"

 

   They are in it for the bucks. Their first O loco (the sweet switcher) got rave reviews from scale modelers but the toy train guys howled that it wouldn't run fast enough and the sound was too subdued so for subsequent offerings Atlas decided to cater to the bigger group instead of taking the time to build the scale market segment. As a result the number of modelers working in other scales were turned off from trying O but Atlas got their 3 rail sales.Luckily there's no toy train HO segment to screw up that scale :&gt .....DaveB  

Like .... 35% off list better! These fantastic Atlas S2's with the ESC decoders can be had for $170

Some of you may interested (and surprised) bywhat is being done in N scale sound:

Here's John Colombo's YouTube video of a Loksound sound decoder with a Knowles (basically a cell-phone) speaker in an N-scale GEVO:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFzlQ_sdPzI

An explanatory thread is at:

www.trainboard.com/grapevine/showthread.php?155202-FVM-GEVO-Sound-Project&highlight=gevo+sound

 

I have to agree with Andre on the HO front. I picked up an HO Bowser Alco C430 with Loksound for fun (I've developed a soft spot for Alcos).

 

The slow-speed control, the excellent sounds (Loksound horns, for example, are deeper and richer than the more "reedy" horns available on most Tsunami decoders.

 

Nothing beats the "presence" of O 2R but the HO world has become a different place within the last few years in terms of detail, sound, and fidelity to prototype.

 

Thanks for that link, Jim! (Of course, it cost me about 15 minutes of my life as I had to check out Mr. Columbo's other videos!!)

 

That's some of the nicest N scale modeling/sound I've seen in a while. It's not just the engines, either, it's the complete scene. Very nice.

 

 

This is an unmodified (other then the smoke plunger removed) Weaver R1. These can be found on Ebay and at train shows. I am using DCC so slow speed is not a problem with the proper decoder and working with the CV's, in this case a TCS WOW older version I.  The slight bump is the due to a track problem and also that is engine is not sprung. Working on the exact chuff rate. The the smooth start and speed is what's important. My Atlas RS-1's will do the same. All I am saying is that it can be done with a minimum of effort.

I do agree that new gearing and such would be a great if not expensive solution. Sometimes you have to work with what you have.

Video quality is not the best, just a quick demo.

 

"Loksound horns, for example, are deeper and richer than the more "reedy" horns available on most Tsunami decoders."

 

    That's great to hear, crappy horns are the main reason I'm not more into loco sound. For some reason they usually make the horns sound less loud than the bells or diesel sounds? The only O gauge diesel horn I recall liking was Lionel Railsounds which wouldn't fit into most scale locos...DaveB

I concur with DaveB on the Weaver single-motor drives. There are some problems with those units as they had a run of them with non-aged delrin axle and shaft gears which shrink and split, but their slow-speed characteristics are very good. The Atlas SW8/9 and SW1500 have horizontal single-motor drives and good slow-speed characteristics.

 

The China-Drive units can be slowed down by wiring the motors in series and adding a little weight to the locomotive to prevent wheel slip. The added bonuses are that it reduces the current draw of the locomotive and gives a broader voltage control range of the speed. I think Dan (Railroad Guy) set some up in series and used H.O. decoders to run them.

Rumor has it that Atlas has recently changed the gear ratio on the China drive from 10:1 to 14:1. I hope this is true.  Maybe if they get enough requests they will produce retrofit kits for older models.   Could use about 25 kits myself.

Heck,I've got a couple of '70s vintage Atlas F units, and they both are whisper quiet,smooth as silk, and can run at a snail's pace all day long.

I get why they changed to China-drives,but whatta shame...

 

Mark in Oregon

 

The one Atlas 2R engine I have with a decent horn is an SD40 with the original QSI sound system. That horn is full-throated and "sounds" like a locomotive horn. The engine sounds are poor: non-distinct "noise."

 

a couple years back I did an experiment with china drives on a Weaver engine. I had ordered new worm and worm gear sets that were a single lead worm rather than the dual lead worm that is OEM on most china drive models. this effectively doubled the gear ratio and helped low end performance quite a bit.

 

the biggest issue with the conversion was getting the worm off the motor shaft without damage to the motor. not an easy process.

 

if the builders made this simple switch, many of us would be more interested in twin motored engines.

 

A single start worm would be great.  I spoke to NWSL a few years ago about one and they said they weren't sure they could do one.  20:1 gears in the China drive would be just about perfect.

Not all, but some of the worms are "Loctited" on.  I use a special fixture, with a cushion to gently catch the motor.  I heat the worm, tap the shaft gently, and I am ready for the new worm with some shaft Loctite.

 

I am not much for operatiing - I bore easily.  However, I agree with the poster above who suggests that it is the jerky starts and stops that kill realism.  I recently got some video of HO models arriving in a station.  These are fully DCC equipped models, the very latest in small plastic off-the-shelf stuff, and stunningly realistic.  But they could not make a realistic start or stop.  There is still some work to be done.

 

On a real passenger train, movement at first is relative - nobody is sure whether the train they are on is moving or whether it is the one on the next track.

I'd just like to say that I find this thread very interesting.  I may be in the minority of 3-railers, but I, too, am waiting for a loco that starts moving without you noticing it.  No doubt cruise control has made things run better in my segment of the hobby, but it always seemed to me like a correction for basic mechanical deficiency.  I guess more electronic gadgetry is sexier and easier to sell than a truly smooth drive train.

 

Looks like Matt Forsyth is doing some good work, though: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kp2f1NCmIgA

"I may be in the minority of 3-railers, but I, too, am waiting for a loco that starts moving without you noticing it.  No doubt cruise control has made things run better in my segment of the hobby, but it always seemed to me like a correction for basic mechanical deficiency.  I guess more electronic gadgetry is sexier and easier to sell than a truly smooth drive train."

 

   Yeah, I think you are in the minority. The China drive is a cheap way to provide the high speed that most 3 railers love along with plenty of room for louder electronics. There was little thought given to making it run at scale speeds. Atlas' SW8-9 switcher proved that it's possible for them to build a smooth running low cost scale loco if they really want to .....DaveB

My O Scale 2 rail Sunset steam engines and diesel engines (horizontal drives) equipped with QSI Titan decoders have excellent slow speed performance.  The ones equipped with the new  Q3 version of QSI Titan Magnum decoder (Q2 is in most recent production Atlas and Sunset production engines) are the best of the best at all speeds.  And so is the sound.