TCA Sets Minimum Age Requirement

Way to try and get kids involved TCA

Does this mean every time a minor makes a purchase in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, they're entering into a contract which can be abrogated because the minor has not reached their majority?

Since this action was taken by the Executive Committee it was probably the need for an immediate fix. There are more logical ways for TCA to handle this situation and I hope that  they will do so at the upcoming National Convention.

Thanks Allan,

 

Was not aware of the Kids Club

 

Just sent for a  Membership for My Grandson Sammy

My grandson is a charter member of the kids club.

So where does this leave anyone under the age of 18 who is a member? I would think their might be a couple.

Whew!!  I was afraid they were imposing a forced retirement age and this old coot

would be booted out into the snow!  (seriously, in various publications, and over time,

I have read about how hard it was to get kids interested in trains since so few seem

to run...at least in this area where kids are too prone to forget about them at

crossings....and people are worried about their collections and disposition and the

loss of part of our history and heritage and who will carry it on...and that all of that

should be encouraged) This action is probably due to a legal hassle that will have to be worked around)

People under the age of 18 can join the TCA kids club.

 

Both of my sons were charter members of the Kids club.

They received free charter member boxcars.

 

Of more concern to me is the apparent board emphasis:

 

quote:

One of the primary aims of the Association is to foster and facilitate the buying and selling of toy, scale and model trains and related items.

 

 

It is just a cover your behind thing in this new world we live in.

 

Kinda like the disclaimer on the toaster " Do not use it while bathing"

 

Remember the McDonald s Coffee lawsuit.

I guess I never realized there wasn't an 18yo requirement already

So the "C" in TCA stands for "Commerce" not "Collectors"?  

That's what this sounded like to me too.  Obviously there is a common sense line somewhere.  Kids aren't going to be forbidden by PA law from buying their junk food and comic books.  So what is really going on here?

 

Thanks, Allan for posting the notice!

 

I'm no lawyer, but I think that a lot of it has to do with the fact that when you join the TCA, you are signing a contract agreeing to abide by the terms and rules of the TCA in exchange for benefits of membership.  Kids cannot legally sign such a contract in PA (at least not without some other kind of legal documentation, such as a legal emancipation of a minor), which is the reason for the change.  I think that PA doesn't afford straight-up commerce (purchasing of goods and services) the same level of consideration as a contract that requires a signature.

 

The TCA is just complying with the laws of PA here, nothing more, and nothing less.  The TCA Kids Club certainly provides for the involvement of kids, so it is not like anything is being lost here.

 

Andy

"One of the primary aims of the Association is to foster and facilitate the buying and selling of toy, scale and model trains and related items.   A stated age limit was deemed necessary because of the potential liability posed by transactions (which are contracts) that go awry."

 

Nary a word about belonging to the TCA being a contract; but explicitly states rule was promulgated becasue of sales transactions, which brings me back to my original question - is every transaction by a minor in PA a contract?

why does a PA law affect kids in, say, Kansas?

 

Is the museum the official headquarters of the association and as such subjects it to PA law?

 

- walt

Walt - it would affect a Kansas minor if he bought trains @ York, no?

When I was 15-16, I had a paper route.  I paid my manager each week by a check that I wrote out and signed.  No check required a co-signer.  I did have a parent's name on the account and on the check but I was the only one who ever wrote or signed them.  Checks are a classic example of a contract.  I was clearly making a contract.  Would it have held up if there had been a problem and had gone to court?  Who knows?  The checks all cleared and the manager got his money.  My point is simply that there are practical exceptions with contracts.

No in this particular instance TCA stands for "Try to Cover your @ss

Thats why it says 14 and up... same thing

David

 

I find that part that reads "One of the primary aims of the Association is to foster and facilitate the buying and selling of toy, scale and model trains and related items." a bit disturbing myself.  I would like to think that the TCA at the national level sees itself as MUCH more than simply the administrator of swap meets for toy trains.  In fact, I would like to think that buying and selling toy trains is among the least important functions or aims now that we're in the 21st Century with the obvious rapidly changing demographics of the hobby. 

I knew you would say that Allan. You have to protect your magazine. The TCA is a club to buy & sell toy trains. I'll catch **** for this reply. Mr. Burfle my grandson also has that box car that Angela Thomas designed.

I have to wonder how the current  16 or 17 year old member "kids" are going to feel being relegated to "Kids Club" ? 

 

I have no reason to doubt what is being said but I just think it is a sorry cause and effect that a 17 year person cannot legally transact or be a "TCA" member.  I am also sorry the TCA couldn't find a little better way to resolve this than lumping everyone under 18 into the kids pool.  IMO not the best effort for TCA.

 

Ed

As the TCA has members worldwide, how would an under 18 year old apply for membership? If this problem revolves around PA law, then it is probably fair to say that PA law does not have any powers overseas, so, can an under 18 overseas person technically be eligible for full membership? Regards, Neil.

Every state has a minimum age for a legal contract.  Some are 19.  This was not dreamed up here in the U.S., it was based on "Common Law", which also came over on the boat from England.  In minor transactions, you never hear of it.  Once in a while you see it for example when the 17 year old agrees to   buy a diamond ring for the sweetheart and the Jeweler tries to enforce the deal. 

The fact that it was done by the Executive Committee and not the full Board of Directors indicates a need for immediate action, the timing hints of something from the recent York meet. We all know that TCA is more than the buying and selling of trains. They have set the standards on how those trains are represented in the transaction, by the implementation and enforcement of TCA grading standards at their meets. Reproductions and restored items must be identified, so for many, the price of membership helps to insure an honest transaction as their knowledge of collectible trains increase.

 

Sure for many, their membership in TCA is simply the cost to go to the biggest train meet in the world, and if you have attended recently you know all the excitement around the Orange Hall. TCA is becoming a club of operators and is evident by recent articles in the flagship publication, the Train Collectors Quarterly.

 

Doing a little bit of online research into PA law, and also from my personal experience I know that I am responsible for my child's actions from the age of 8 or 9 until they reach 21. Parental Responsibility laws have me liable for any action the might be involved in, either accidental or not. A much simpler solution to the problem is for the Association to have a spot on the application form for a parent to sign if the prospective new member is under the age of 18.

 

No teenager I know wants to be a member of "Kid's Club", and many organizations have "Junior" memberships available to them affording them all the rights of regular members except maybe the right to vote or hold office. This would seem to be a more logical solution for the Association to follow.

Hard to say, I guess, but I sure know how I would feel. 

 

Then again, I'm pretty far removed from that age group, and, the truth be known, feeling fortunate that I am.

Agree, but why affect the whole train world outside of PA????

 

If York is the driving reason for this new policy, why couldn't they just change the rules for application to York and make it known that you have to be 18 to go???? 

 

By creating this new policy the TCA is saying, basically, that York and the TCA are equivalent.

 

- walt

As one member already posted, how about just simply making any minor have their parent/guardian sign the form in a place that explains that by signing it they are responsible for what the kid buys or sells. ( As they already should be responsible).

 

I've kept my opinions to myself concerning some of the decisions TCA has made in the past but this one is simply absurd.  Rather than do something as simple as having a parent taking responsibility by signing the form, they banish all the under 18 people to kiddie land ! 

 

Hard for me to believe that they gave it more than a passing thought for more reasonable solutions to the problem.

 

Ed

 

The Eastern Division York Meet is the largest train meet around so problems naturally would appear there first. Each Division may set it's own rules such as the no photography and cell phone restrictions at York, but if you sell, you sign your sellers application saying you agree to the TCA standards. My guess is a lawyer interpreted this sales application as a "binding contract" and not a simple contract, which a minor cannot legally sign. So, if this is the issue, why not simply restrict train sales as part of a Junior membership or make it a Division decision?

 

In Pennsylvania where a minor may purchase and sell a car, (there is no minimum age requirement for vehicle ownership in PA) he can't use that car to sell toy trains at a TCA meet.

 

I guess a side issue that TCA will now have to address is what restrictions will be in place for an adult member who is or becomes mentally challenged? Is their contract binding? Seems to me that if the issue here is that the TCA application is the binding contract and not table sales, then TCA can no longer have mentally challenged members. I guess TCA will start tossing out all us old guys after all.

 

Looks like a big can of worms that only a lawyer could get TCA into.

 

I am not a lawyer. That written, the Train Collector's Association is headquartered, registered, and what-have-you in Penssylvania, and therefore has to abide by PA rules and regulations. This change was not driven by the Eastern Division/ York Train show.

C.W. - I agree the change was certainly not driven by the TCA.  The "solution" however was totally TCA's brain child. 

 

 It just seems so ridiculous to me.  They make it sound like they are protecting the entire membership from some terrible problems when dealing with minors. 

 

You know I would love to know the ratio of problems with sales between members and minors v.s. member to member.  I would bet the ranch that the bulk of issues are with members well over the age of 18.

 

In the scope of it all this issue is minuscule compared to everything else.  It just strikes me as yet some more dumbing down to protect everyone from everything.

 

Ed

I think Chris allen has a good idea, why doesn't the TCA just institute a Junior Members for those between say 13 and 17 with all the rigts and honors of a full blown member minus the ability to hold office and whatever the issue was that triggered this? 

 

Jerry

Ownership and an enforceable contract are two different things.  I think the idea of parental signing would work.  Banks require parents to sign on the account for much the same reasons. 

I think it is a good and needed rule. I just purchased a Legacy Challenger from a board member with a postal money order, the young man was not of legal age in his state. I questioned the postal inspector that if the deal went bad would they be able to get my train or money back, the answer is no if the seller is not of legal age in their state, they cannot enter into a legal contract. The TCA was formed to promote the  buying and selling trains and promote honesty in the dealings and this is just a further extension of the philosophy, it was a different world back then, I never figured I would buy a $1500 engine from a minor, but they have buying power that we never dreamed of at that age. My deal went well, I am lucky I was dealing with a good and honest person, all are not.

Membership in the TCA implies that you are "a good and honest" person, at least when it comes to buying and selling trains. Why should you be treated differently just because you are not 18, are you somehow less "good and honest".

Today's world with the Internet and other easily accessible information, give children of all ages a powerful tool. They can literally be 12 going on 30.

 

I believe that the TCA needs to reconsider and allow a change to permit anyone under 18 to be recognized as a Minor not able to hold Office or other activity that binds the TCA.

 

I recall when I was 16 in the age of Savings and Loan (Remember that?) my Parents were present at every deposit or withdrawal. I could not wait to hit 18 and get away from that. Looking back on it with what I see today... It's possible that our Children (In the Nation..) have gained power in spending, buying and other things because of the Net. It is not so bad as long the Parents supervise.

 

I am happy to be rid of those years. It was a unnecessary liability in many things.

 

I'm not sure that I understand all the fuss here. My grandson has been a kids club member since he was 3. He is 14 now. His mother is a tca member, & he goes to York as a child of a member. When he is 18, he will become a full member. It doesn't bother him that he goes to York as a child of a member. I'm sorry, but I guess that I don't understand what all this is about.

I have to agree with Eddie. As I previously wrote, both of my kids were charter members of the kids club. They became full members when they were 18.

The problem for the TCA will be keeping them as members while they are young adults, starting families, with no time for trains.