Tell Me About Standard Gauge...

@William 1 posted:

Ordered the book too.  $11 bucks, why not.  Thanks for the tip.

Right on...👍😁

Mark in Oregon

PS: the inspiration for this discussion (the #33) is scheduled to arrive on Monday. Quick question: are the motors in these old things considered "universal", like the series wound types in ACG engines?

@Strummer posted:

Quick question: are the motors in these old things considered "universal", like the series wound types in ACG engines?

Yes.

Quick question, quick answer. 😁

Thank you. 👍

Mark in Oregon

This finally arrived today: 🙂

Some initial thoughts:

When I first picked it up at the post office, I was surprised by the size of the box it was in; I expected it to be much larger. The engine survived the trip with zero damage, so the shipping box was big enough. 🙂

Taking it out of the box was like Christmas morning; very exciting. This thing is so cool; with its light, bell and other details. Hooked it up to my MRC 027 transformer; started a little slowly (guessing it hasn't been run for a while), but once it "warmed up" it was fine. Kinda noisy; that large, metal body is a real sound chamber. 😳

Since this is a "restored" piece, decals were used, not stamping, which is probably common (?)

I will look closer into this thing over the weekend; any suggestions as to lubrication points, etc.? I'm guessing it's pretty straightforward.

I can certainly see the allure of Standard Gauge... it's quite wonderful! 😊

Mark in Oregon

Good start! :-)

Thanks!

Here is a picture of the "guts": I guess this is a slightly newer example, since the frame is not of the "u" type?

Typically, what would be the correct light bulb for this unit? It's got a "430", but it doesn't work. I have tried a  #1447 (from my American Flyer spares) and that works, but the globe looks too small for this much larger engine...

Mark in Oregon

Mark, Best estimate for timing on this Loco is 1917-1918. The 2 piece lightened frame, Die cast 8 spoke wheels, reversing switch mounting plate design, hook coupler with nibs, lighting post on the top... These are all clues to the dating. Im expecting the windows in the end doors to have brass plates that say "MADE BY THE LIONEL MFG CO." on them and the motor to have 9 field laminations, but you did not show either in the photos posted.

The hollow shell was indeed a resonator and amplifier of the sound!

@Strummer posted:

Thanks!

Typically, what would be the correct light bulb for this unit? It's got a "430", but it doesn't work. I have tried a  #1447 (from my American Flyer spares) and that works, but the globe looks too small for this much larger engine...

Mark in Oregon

430 is your bulb. Since your 1447 works, its likely the the 430 filament is no good.

@Rob English posted:

1. Best estimate for timing on this Loco is 1917-1918.

2. Im expecting the windows in the end doors to have brass plates that say "MADE BY THE LIONEL MFG CO." on them and the motor to have 9 field laminations...

3. The hollow shell was indeed a resonator and amplifier of the sound!

Hey Rob

Thanks for all your help with this; I obviously know zilch about Standard Gauge, so your information is greatly appreciated.

1. Wow; it's older than I would have imagined.

2. Yes, on both counts.

3. The motor itself is, I think, pretty quiet. There is a "chattering" which I think is due to the axle holes in the frame sides being slightly worn and a little enlarged.

I have ordered some replacement motor brushes; will changing these simply be a question of removing the screws that hold the caps (and wires) in place?

Thanks again. 👍

Mark in Oregon

Another update (in case anyone is the slightest bit interested). 🙂

The Riddle book arrived today: looks like a good one; thanks for the heads up.

I have been in contact with USA Track; Kirk emailed me the other day and he's waiting on a supplier before he can send me some track. In the meantime, I discovered that if I take 2 sections of Gargraves S gauge track (which I have plenty of) and lay them parallel to each other with 1/2" spacing between the ties, it makes almost a perfect 2 1/8" rail spacing. Here are a few lousy pictures:

The blue tape is just to hold everything in place.

Now that I can run the "33" (at least for about four and a half feet 😐 ) I am surprised by how quiet and smooth running it actually is.  It's almost disappointing; I figured part of the attraction to this old stuff would be the noise they make! 😄

Having a good time with this...

Mark in Oregon

@NJCJOE posted:

Look at all the pretty colors. 😁

Wait til you run that engine....then the real fun starts.

Joe,

IS this 12' of GSS?

JoeG

Yes, it is Joe.

What is "GSS"? "Gargraves Stainless Steel"?

Mark in Oregon

Glenn Snyder shelving.

@NJCJOE posted:

Glenn Snyder shelving.

Ah...gee, I wasn't even close! 😳 🙂

Mark in Oregon

Improvise, Adapt, Overcome!  Great job!

@NJCJOE posted:

Yes, it is Joe.

Well, I am in trouble then! I have an area of 7.5 feet wide and a lot of Std Gauge! Lol

Joe

I'm finding that I'm having the most fun in standard gauges doing restorations.  Here's my latest project.  It's a 180-181-182 medium size passenger car set with an extra 180.  After studying these in Greenburg and Daly, I've determined the date must be in the 1914-1916 range.

I have all of the parts except a few window strips.  Decals are on order from Radtains on eBay, and the maroon paint will be in my next order to Trainenamels.

Window strips are a problem.  Looking at photos, I see that the clerestory roofs with those tabs had the blue window shade inserts.  Does anyone know where I can find the blue shade material ?

Standard Gauge sales began Nov 1906..#2&1 trolleys ...mid / later 1907 ..steamers 5& 6 ...and frieght were added.

1910 the first passenger cars were added,18,19&190...with knobs .

The real,sales pinch for standard gauge,,..which was not a standard ...and advertised as 2" gauge till 1913..was the,sectional track ... which was a big improvement over ribbon track used by thr other,American electric train manufactures .

Here is a video link to see a Lionel 1912 pulling the early knob 18,19& 190...all from 1910 ...and a thin rim 5 pulling some 10's series cars ..all circa 1908-9 ...

Running on the original split pin standard gauge track ..1908-1912.

Cheers Carey

https://youtu.be/c_-221KL1eE

@Strummer posted:

Hey Rob

Thanks for all your help with this; I obviously know zilch about Standard Gauge, so your information is greatly appreciated.

1. Wow; it's older than I would have imagined.

2. Yes, on both counts.

3. The motor itself is, I think, pretty quiet. There is a "chattering" which I think is due to the axle holes in the frame sides being slightly worn and a little enlarged.

I have ordered some replacement motor brushes; will changing these simply be a question of removing the screws that hold the caps (and wires) in place?

Thanks again. 👍

Mark in Oregon

You bet. Supposed to be fairly easy but never is. Caps are interference fit, but getting them off without the tube moving can sometimes be challenging. Screw just hold wires on. Be gentle... the brass is thin wall and a little fragile.

Pick up Arnos book "NOT your Daddys Train". A true account of all Tinplate. Info listed on Facebook under Tinplate Times

Joe Gozzo

@Strummer posted:

Although I've been involved in many different scales over the years, and my interest has been on "realistic" trains, I have always found the colors and charm of Standard Gauge to be most inviting. With that in mind, I just now purchased a restored (repainted) number 33, through Trainz. Here are a few pictures from eBay:

I think it will make a nice addition to the train room...😊

What should I know before I get in "too deep"? 😳🙂

Mark in Oregon

Mark,

Welcome to the shiny side of the hobby,

@Trainlover160 posted:

Pick up Arnos book "NOT your Daddys Train". A true account of all Tinplate. Info listed on Facebook under Tinplate Times

Joe Gozzo

Doesn't that book only cover modern era (i.e. 1960 and later) SG?

@palallin posted:

Doesn't that book only cover modern era (i.e. 1960 and later) SG?

That's what I thought too...🤔

Mark in Oregon

@palallin posted:

Doesn't that book only cover modern era (i.e. 1960 and later) SG?

Yes, only modern era.

@Trainlover160 posted:

Well, I am in trouble then! I have an area of 7.5 feet wide and a lot of Std Gauge! Lol

Joe

Feel free to send any leftovers to me Joe.

My apologies to everyone waiting for track.  It took months to get time at a stamping plant to make ties, and now we are waiting for the black oxide coating to be applied. We hope to be back in production this month.

Kirk Lindvig

USA TRACK LLC

Thanks Kirk for the update; I also appreciated the email...👍

Mark in Oregon

Mark,

If you really want to jump into the “deep end”, buy the new Baars/Carse book on MESG (Modern Era Standard Gauge). Standard Gauge production did not end with WW2!

Just send a check for $136 to:

@Strummer posted:

Another update (in case anyone is the slightest bit interested). 🙂

The Riddle book arrived today: looks like a good one; thanks for the heads up.

I have been in contact with USA Track; Kirk emailed me the other day and he's waiting on a supplier before he can send me some track. In the meantime, I discovered that if I take 2 sections of Gargraves S gauge track (which I have plenty of) and lay them parallel to each other with 1/2" spacing between the ties, it makes almost a perfect 2 1/8" rail spacing. Here are a few lousy pictures:

The blue tape is just to hold everything in place.

Now that I can run the "33" (at least for about four and a half feet 😐 ) I am surprised by how quiet and smooth running it actually is.  It's almost disappointing; I figured part of the attraction to this old stuff would be the noise they make! 😄

Having a good time with this...

Mark in Oregon

The wood ties cut quite a bit of the joyful clatter.

Steve

@Steve "Papa" Eastman posted:

The wood ties cut quite a bit of the joyful clatter.

Steve

Ah... that makes sense. 🙂

Mark in Oregon

@SGMA1 posted:

My apologies to everyone waiting for track.  It took months to get time at a stamping plant to make ties, and now we are waiting for the black oxide coating to be applied. We hope to be back in production this month.

Kirk Lindvig

USA TRACK LLC

Always worth the wait Kirk. We ALWAYS appreciate You!

Joeg

@Rob English posted:

Re: Changing motor brushes.

"You bet. Supposed to be fairly easy but never is. Caps are interference fit, but getting them off without the tube moving can sometimes be challenging. Screw just hold wires on. Be gentle... the brass is thin wall and a little fragile."

Thanks for the heads up. Do you mean the caps  are like a "friction-type" fit? The replacement brushes have arrived, but I don't want to muck things up.  After all, it's running pretty nicely now...

I love how basic and easy to disassemble this is; (4) screws and off the body comes...and it's a hundred(+) years old. I can see how this could become addictive!  😊

Mark in Oregon

Addictive you say? Wait till you transition to the classic era of Lionel and American Flyer standard gauge circa 1926-1930's: large and elaborate engines and rolling stock! Let the games begin!

Even a humble Lionel #8 or #10 passenger set will beckon to you!

@Strummer posted:

Thanks for the heads up. Do you mean the caps  are like a "friction-type" fit? The replacement brushes have arrived, but I don't want to muck things up.  After all, it's running pretty nicely now...

I love how basic and easy to disassemble this is; (4) screws and off the body comes...and it's a hundred(+) years old. I can see how this could become addictive!  😊

Mark in Oregon

Yes just so.  I would leave them be and keep the new brushes in reserve.

Well, that was interesting. Never to leave well enough alone, I decided to go ahead and replace the brushes. They were both very worn, so it was time.

The replacement brushes were far too "fat" in diameter to slip into the brass tubes. I didn't want to force anything but had to install something. I looked into my stash of stuff and it turns out the "shouldered" brushes for the later American Flyer S scale locomotives fit. 🙂

They are overall a bit smaller, but due to the large coil springs they work just fine. This sure is a smooth runner... 😊

Mark in Oregon

PS: I could add here that the Gilbert coil springs are indentical to the Lionel original/replacement springs...FWIW.

@Strummer posted:

Well, that was interesting. Never to leave well enough alone, I decided to go ahead and replace the brushes. They were both very worn, so it was time.

The replacement brushes were far too "fat" in diameter to slip into the brass tubes. I didn't want to force anything but had to install something. I looked into my stash of stuff and it turns out the "shouldered" brushes for the later American Flyer S scale locomotives fit. 🙂

They are overall a bit smaller, but due to the large coil springs they work just fine. This sure is a smooth runner... 😊

Mark in Oregon

PS: I could add here that the Gilbert coil springs are indentical to the Lionel original/replacement springs...FWIW.

All righty then... alls well that ends well!

@Rob English posted:

All righty then... alls well that ends well!

Indeed; thanks. This old thing is quite cool. 😊

Questions:

1. other than the center rail pick up(s), what is the difference between the motor on this "33" and the "Super Motor"?

2. what's the difference between the "33","38" and the "1911"; the "50" and "53"? Or the "10" and the "318"/"380"? I'm looking at the book by the TCA, but it doesn't really go into too much detail... although it's great to look at! 🙂

Mark in Oregon

@Strummer posted:

Indeed; thanks. This old thing is quite cool. 😊

Questions:

1. other than the center rail pick up(s), what is the difference between the motor on this "33" and the "Super Motor"?

2. what's the difference between the "33","38" and the "1911"; the "50" and "53"? Or the "10" and the "318"/"380"? I'm looking at the book by the TCA, but it doesn't really go into too much detail... although it's great to look at! 🙂

Mark in Oregon

I'll leave the answers to your questions to others who are far more qualified than me.

However, there are other resources for reference materials...

While the book you pictured is an excellent starting point, a more definitive work is Greenberg's guide to standard gauge trains.  Still available from the author:  http://brinkmannpub.com/Page/stdGauge.html

If you want an extremely detailed compilation of Lionel standard gauge freight car variations, find a copy of Caryl Pettijohn's book.  I believe that he still has copies for sale, although he didn't have any with him at York.  You can access his contact info via the members' section of the TCA website.