Tender Marker Lights

Ed Kelly posted:

Hi All,

When a pusher is at the rear of a train and pushing, the tender marker lights are red and on.

Are the marker lights on after the pushing is over and the engine is backing down the grade?

Thanks,

Ed

No. The rear red markers would only be on if the locomotive was turned, i.e. on a wye, and then returned back down the grade operating forward. If the helper/pusher was NOT turned, and had to back down the grade, then the rear headlight on the tender would be on,the red markers would be turned off, and the class lights on the front would display red to the rear.

I agree w/ what Hot said up to the point of "....the class lights on the front would display red to the rear"

I was under the impression that class lights came with either all green [ "all" in this case =  front and one side ] or all white lenses.  So a set of red marker lights would be hung instead of "turning" the class lights.

BUT:  Bear in mind that if you are operating in Timetable/TO territory,  the light engine(s) going back down the hill, either backwards or forwards, is / are probably going to need a set of orders [  unless they are attached to a scheduled train or similar that already has authority ] because they are unscheduled -- and thus will need a set of class lights as well as rear markers.   This of course doesn't apply if you are operating where authority is granted by signal indication alone [ CTC, PRR post thirties, etc ].

Correction or amplification welcomed.  Where's Eddie Sand when you need him.....

Best rgds, EZ [ SZ's smarter brother ]

Steinzeit posted:

I agree w/ what Hot said up to the point of "....the class lights on the front would display red to the rear"

I was under the impression that class lights came with either all green [ "all" in this case =  front and one side ] or all white lenses.  So a set of red marker lights would be hung instead of "turning" the class lights.

Your "impression" is NOT correct. Class lights have a small lever that is used to select the color disc inside the light, for "Green" (Second section following), or "Red" for use when backing. No color lens selected is thus "White" (Extra train).

BUT:  Bear in mind that if you are operating in Timetable/TO territory,  the light engine(s) going back down the hill, either backwards or forwards, is / are probably going to need a set of orders [  unless they are attached to a scheduled train or similar that already has authority ] because they are unscheduled -- and thus will need a set of class lights as well as rear markers.   This of course doesn't apply if you are operating where authority is granted by signal indication alone [ CTC, PRR post thirties, etc ].

Correction or amplification welcomed.  Where's Eddie Sand when you need him.....

Best rgds, EZ

Well , he is asking about the steam era -- not diesel. 

EZ -- er, SZ

Steinzeit posted:

Well , he is asking about the steam era -- not diesel. 

EZ -- er, SZ

No difference! Besides, I was referring to steam era practices anyway. Modern diesels don't even have class lights, and haven't since the 1980s.

Ed Kelly posted:

Hi All,

When a pusher is at the rear of a train and pushing, the tender marker lights are red and on.

Are the marker lights on after the pushing is over and the engine is backing down the grade?

Thanks,

Ed

There is no simple anwser. The lights displayed depend entirely upon the "Authority for Movement" Operating Rules in effect for that particular subdivision of the specific railroad.

OK, thanks.  I was unaware that some roads used "selectable" class lights in the steam era.

Question:   If the locomotive is running in reverse as an extra, do the class lights have to be hung on the tender, or can the smokebox mounted ones suffice, irrespective of the marker light location ?

Best, SZ

This discussion keeps talking about lights.  During the day flags would probably have been used.   The few steam locomotives I have worked with had, in addition to class lights, marker light and flag holders brackets on both the front and rear of the tender.

Steinzeit posted:

OK, thanks.  I was unaware that some roads used "selectable" class lights in the steam era.

Question:   If the locomotive is running in reverse as an extra, do the class lights have to be hung on the tender, or can the smokebox mounted ones suffice, irrespective of the marker light location ?

Best, SZ

 

 

Again, it all depends on the rules in effect on the territory. Almost always (I say almost because there are exceptions to every rule) the CLASS lights, if required, would be displayed on the leading end of the movement (in regard to direction of travel), and the MARKER lights on the trailing (rear) end, regardless of the orientation of the locomotive and tender.

As with all Operating Rules, it can get involved.

Hope this helps,

Chris

Ed - as I recall your modelling era is the 1950's transition era on the PRR.  That makes discussion of classification lights on your models moot.  The PRR ceased using classification lights (and flags)  in 1940, and shortly after the green/white lens claw footed light fixtures were removed from PRR locomotive smoke box fronts.  The PRR's class light fixtures did not carry a red lens in addition to the green and white ones.  In the pre 1941 class light era PRR practice was to use separate pilot beam mounted marker lights (same claw foot fixture as class lights) with a forward facing red lens and side facing amber  lenses.  Originally these fixtures carried one red and two Amber lenses but over time the interior Amber lenses were replaced by sheet metal blanks.  As steam locomotives were shopped in the 1940's and 50's most pilot beam mounted claw foot marker lights were removed and replaced by  smaller smoke box mounted marker light fixtures.  Initially the new replacement markers light fixtures had an oblong tombstone shape (see J1/ Q2 photos).  Around 1946/7 the PRR began to install smaller round "bulls eye" shaped marker light fixtures on their steam power.  Along with swapped headlight and generator locations the bullseye markers were characteristic of the PRR post war look on most road power.  

PRR tenders built before the mid 1930's (the riveted ones) carried marker lights of the claw foot design with the same red/Amber lens setup as on the pilot beam markers.  As built they were mounted on shelves at the rear corners of the tender deck.  In the later postwar era K4s claw foot markers were removed from the tender deck and relocated to small shelf brackets on the rear face of the tender.  I've not seen photos of relocated tender markers on classes other than K4s .  I suspect this was done to make it possible to clean the lens without climbing up on the deck, but why E6/G5/I1/L1/H9/10 and M1a tenders didn't have their tender markers relocated to a lower position remains an open question.

From the N&W Rule Book.
Pocahontas Glory and other videos show the yellow flag stuck in the knuckle.

Big Jim posted:

From the N&W Rule Book.

 

What year is that Rule Book?

I have to pull my Rule Books out for the CVRR and see what's in them on this subject...

mwb posted:

Big Jim posted:

From the N&W Rule Book.

 

What year is that Rule Book?

I have to pull my Rule Books out for the CVRR and see what's in them on this subject...

November 18, 1951

Thanks to all for the informative posts.  I learned a lot.

Regards,

Ed