Thank You WBB for Trains that do LESS

These are direct drop in.  Everything is in the bulb.

These are direct drop in.  Everything is in the bulb.

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I took a look at their website (in Houston, right?) and they list a couple of different ones. Do you have a part#?

 

Thanks.

So slow speed operation...is that such a big deal?

Yes it is, to some.

 

The things I like about conventional are:

cost

simplicity of electronics

low cost to repair electronics

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Things I don't like about conventional are:

most engines are not to scale or as detailed as I would like them to be

very few new choices available

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Things I like about command are:

slow speed

ability to run more than 1 engine at a time without more than 2 wires to the track

ability to call up an engine to run while another engine is already running

I have yet to have any real issues with my 9 command engines

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Things I don't like about command:

cost

cost to repair electronics

usually can't repair them yourself

life span of electronics is too short (by that I mean technology keeps improving and older parts are not made after a certain period)too much put into the electronics (horn/whistle/bell/steam chuff/diesel rumble OK)

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Of my 9 engines, all but 1 are command, the 1 is currently nothing more than a DC motor but will be getting either PS2 or RC/battery soon.  I run both PS2 and TMCC via DCS and have not had the problems I read about on this forum.  But in all honesty, there's so many variables in individual layouts, track plans, etc that I'm sure some folks have a heck of a time getting anything to work.

 

I've said it before...when my command engines die I'll probably gut them and run them via a DC transformer

I have three PRR A-B-A covered wagon sets. Two units powered, one unit OTT sound in each set.

They are a pleasure to run and look and sound good too.

Two of the sets have been running since 1987 with no problems to date.

I think I'm the fifth or sixth person in this thread who comes from an IT/technical background who also isn't interested in spending any amount of time troubleshooting technical issues on my layout. Williams engines are the answer to modern conventional running, from this fan's perspective!

Sometimes...."less is more".....

 

Alan

The bulbs are in another room.  Get it later today.

The more electronics the better IMO. I want our makers to move to more detail, better paint schemes, and although there is great sounds now I want them better. 

 

I'm not bashing the WBB here, they make some great trains for people who like it simple and like to run conventional. But that's not me. I want my trains as close to the real thing as possible and within the 3 rail  scheme. 

I operate all of my trains by command control these days: DCS and Legacy on my "main" layout, DCS on my O gauge tinplate layout, and my soon-to-be trolley layout in my bedroom will also have DCS.

 

HOWEVER, I also have a good number of Williams and WBB locomotives (around 20 or so), and I certainly have no plans to part with them.  When some of the fancy electronics in the command-equipped units begin to fail or become too frustrating or costly to deal with, those dependable and consistently well-built Williams and WBB engines stand ready and able to provide simple and reliable service.  They have never failed me, and some of them date way back to before there even was such a thing as command control in O gauge.

Over 30 locomotives of many different brands and ages.  17 of them (2 steam) are Williams or Williams by Bachman.  They are great!

Dennis

 

So I just rewired my WBB NW-2 following these excellent instructions on series wiring Williams locomotives... and man, what a difference it made!

 

Low speed control is now much improved, and switching ops are actually fun. Super jazzed!! What a great little locomotive.

 

Big thanks to those who share these great mod tips for making these engines better!

Steve

That's what's so great about this hobby of ours.  There's no right or wrong way to enjoy it!

 

I myself prefer command control but it was Williams Electric Trains and earlier K-Line, with their closer-to-scale locomotives and reasonable pricing, that sparked my interest in buying O gauge locomotives beyond the worn and much played with Lionel post war sets I have.  The growing roster led to building bigger layouts and increased fun!

 

I have mostly command control engines now, but the conventional items will still be a part of my regular rotation.  I just love them all!

 

 

I like the more sophisticated electronics in the MTH and Lionel locomotives myself. The queen of my 20 plus loco fleet is a N&W J class by Lionel with TMCC from 2005 and 3 other TMCC steamers.... very nice locos!   I also have plenty of MTH locos ( including a Y6b mallet N&W ) with proto 2 and 3.  Gotta love em! :-)  K line MU cars and a K line collectors club GG1 which pulls 30 plus cars easily, and a Kennecott switcher by K line.

All nice stuff!

 

Lately however I've been drawn to the WBB line purchasing two new WBB Trainmasters and a scale GG1 plus non powered GP9, FA2, Baldwin Shark nose.  I'm looking at a PA2 Delaware and Hudson set of AA units by WBB as my next purchase.  What can I say, WBB is simple and great runners/pullers!  The lack of WBB details somehow does not bother me so much.

I just don't see the durability/reliability advantage some folks are talking about.  I run three of four trains every day for one to four hours, rotating through most of my locos over the course of each year.: MTH, Lionel, Atlas, RMT, WBB, K-Line, and 3rd Rail  I don't mean to take anything away from WBB - they do produce durable locos - but from my perspective, but so do all the others.  

 

 

In my experience, if I have problems with any loco, i'ts right out of the box - within the first hour or so of running.  Any loco, regardless of brand, that goes through the first few days/hours with no problems seems to stay that way for years.  And I have seen no difference there between WBB and others: I had a new Trainmaster that just did not run at all, right out of the box (just a loose connector inside, easily fixed without even returning it).  

 

I should mention that I run only conventionally, even the PS1-2-3, TMCC, and Legacy locos.  Doing so means I'm immune from all the programming/signal strength/transmission problems some people complain about with the digital control.  All these locos run conventionally so I can keep things simple and yet have the modern sound and most of the important modern features (swinging bell, whistle steam, cruise).

 

I think the beauty and distinction WBB has is in the purity/simplicity they offer, without digital control, sound, etc.: I had friends in the '70s who bought VW Beetles for the same reason - they didn't have all the features and so there was an elegance about their simplicity that made them appealing.  WBB locos are like that for me: plus running them takes me back to a simpler time when I was young and toy trains were elemental in their features. Sort of fun to go there once in a while. Of course - like I said earlier, I never stay there long.  The modern locos sound sooooo good!

WBB locos are like that for me: plus running them takes me back to a simpler time when I was young and toy trains were elemental in their features.

 

I wonder how many of us never had trains in our youth or until recently?

 

I didn't (my first model train was HO back around 1979, O scale not until around 2000, and I'm 62), so for me, it's like growing up with only color TV, microwaves, and computers is for the younger generations...I don't know any other way than digital electronics in O scale engines.  And having come from HO when the level of detail and operation was really increasing, I expected that in O as well.

 

Of course, there's parallels like this (conventional vs command) in just about everything:

 

Stick shift or automatic autos

 

Hickory golf club shafts or alloy metal

 

Piper Cub or Lear Jet

 

Canoe or Jet Ski

 

It all depends on what YOU want to do or how you want to get there.

Wasn't it Charles Kuralt who said "Thanks to the interstate highway system it is now possible to travel from coast to coast without seeing anything."

 

Bachmann-Williams please keep doing that thing you do.

 

Pete

My intro came in the early 80s thanks to my dad's collection of PW trains from his own youth. And, since I was in high school and then college and then into my career/family, I missed the whole eletronic / sound revolution of the 90s and early 2000s.

 

So essentially I've just stepped out of the time capsule from 1953. The new engines are really cool and I've got an MTH genset switcher coming soon which I'm quite excited about. But I plan to run it conventional for now, mainly I just wanted a sweet modern switcher in a cool livery. The sounds and all the rest are just icing on the cake

I'm in exactly the same boat, although I didn't have any PW trains to inherit, just had a starter set from the 80's.

 

When my kids arrived and my interest in the hobby rekindled about five years ago, I started doing some research and learning about the leap in technology/capabilities of the modern (1995ish-now) era.  When I learned there was limited backward-compatibility, doubled/tripled cost for new things, and only expensive conventional upgrades available, I immediately said no to a command layout.

 

Here was my biggest surprise, though... I was certain I'd discover that the "old guard" of O-gaugers would also be rejecting the technology.  After all, the fleets of locomotives they'd build over 40-50 years were now basically relics.  Quite the contrary, however!  As you can see from the forums, plenty of old-timers are deep into command systems... and of my six friends who are also O-gaugers (all ages 35-45), we're all conventional-only runners, and as such, huge fans of Williams.

 

Maybe that's another great thing about this hobby--there are so many options, even the stereotypes one might assume to be the case just aren't true!

IMO I have not heard one modern steamer right up to the latest Legacy release that sounds like a real locomotive when it's moving faster than 3 feet per hour. At moderate speed or greater they all sound like 1970's washing machines during the wash cycle when the agitator repititiously changed directions. Diesels may be worse. For me they create an unrelaxing din that also has no relation to reality. So I also appreciate my two recently acquired WBB engines. Especially for the lack of sound.

Ladies & Gentlemen,

    My layouts are DCS controlled, however there are still lots of my engines that run Conventional. I have original Williams & Lionel trains that are some of my favorites, the Williams PRR GG-1, E-44 and the UP City of San Fran complete Passenger train are three of my quality Williams trains, I can only hope my MTH P2 engines, get to be as old, and still run as well as my original Williams conventionals.   I love the combination of both Conventionals and P2 controlled trains running on the same layout, sometimes even on the same tracks.

PCRR/Dave   

What limited backwards-compatiblity are you referring to? 

 

TMCC and DCS probably have the best bragging rights to having pretty darn good backwards-compatibility of any control system out there in model railroading.   TMCC and DCS can run 3-rail trains of virtually all vintages, from pre-war, postwar, and today, universal open-frame or can motors, conventional or command, on the same layout at the same time if you wanted to, and do it pretty easily.  Last I checked, DCC, which is the standard in other scales can't even lay that claim (you can't run conventional DC and DCC engines at the same time).

Certainly interesting reading, and not as many as gixmo happy as I would have thought.  Somebody should write a manual, on that Williams diode trick of slowing

them down, of upgrading the lighting, how to remove all the failed or potentially

failing electronics to render the others conventional.  Of course, it would have to regularly be updated, because that is one field that is not static (PS-1, 2, 3...99?)  And from the comments above by the IT guys, who don't want to reengineer or repair this stuff, guess what the electonically untrained think about it.

Another possible money-maker for somebody would be the production of more

realistic replacement shells for Williams, although I doubt if the 44?? ton chassis

would accept a scale size shell.

Luckily, now, they are not doing enough new steam prototypes, not even 3rd Rail, to suck me into paying for stuff I will want out of the engine as fast as possible.

I think the omission of options is marketing to force all customers to amortize

the investment in electronics, the same problem facing auto shoppers, who have

no way to opt out except by avoiding the product.  The customer may have to hunt

for alternatives, if they exist.

Just my perspective, of course...  By moving away from the ~100-year standard of variable-voltage-to-track to a fixed-voltage-to-track approach, zero backwards compatibility was instantly created.  Special arrangements can be made to make it work, of course.

 

But all that's a pointless discussion, and not worth rehashing--and in fact, I do own a CAB-1 and Powermaster, which I will occasionally use when we set up a temporary living room layout.  The kids love it, and it's great for F-R, throttle, and horn on any locomotive.

 

But back to the point of the thread... at the moment, Williams is producing what I'm willing to buy because their products don't contain components that are superfluous to my needs.

I think the omission of options is marketing to force all customers to amortize

the investment in electronics

 

That's why the producers need to make the engines "Plug&Play".

 

Offer every engine as a "conventional" engine with a simple plug-in unit if you want command.  Even if they came with an E-Unit, make it so it could be unplugged and swapped out easily with a command unit.

It's nice to be able to change engine choices depending upon what kind of mood I'm in. To me there's kind of a music/rhythm to the layout for each operation: switching, pulling, steam or diesel, different kinds of RS. With my WBB diesels and the simplicity Lee refers to it's purely the rhythm of the Atlas 3R track sounds and the motor hum from the engine. I probably have more time invested in my track than anything else and the WBB's are my preferred choice for that option.

You know, that's another good point: before RailSounds and its ilk, we actually had the sounds of the rails and locomotive gearboxes to entertain us!

The sound of a PW train cruising around on tubular track is deeply soothing to me; it makes a racket for sure, but I like and even want that from a model train. The sound should fill the room!

It's part of the visceral experience and one of the big things that, for me anyways, has always set O gauge apart from the smaller and nearly silent HO and N scale trains.

The new trend seems to be towards making O gauge track and rolling stock as quiet as possible, so the sound effects from the onboard electronics can be heard. That's cool and all, but it's just not the same, for me.

Steve

Every command engine made can be operated conventionally. 

I just purchased new the Lakeshore Limited 4-6-0 Steam Engine from WBB. along with their 80 watt Transformer which seems to be identical with the ATLAS transformer.

 

Will this engine run slowly, or will I have to make electrical modifications to it to slow it down?  This is my only engine for my new small layout.

Larry in Calgary

But why pay for additional electronics you don't want? That just jacks the cost for conventional operators unnecessarily.

 

Jerry 

Is this a switching / operations -oriented layout? Or more of a traditional continuous running setup?

 

Unless you're really focused on switching / operations, you probably don't need to change anything.

 

My NW-2 ran fine at low speeds so long as 2-3 or more cars were attached. It was only when running solo during switching operations (i.e. car sorting between adjacent spurs) that I found it a bit jack-rabbity.

 

By "Jack-rabbity" I mean that the loco would go from "off" (lights off, nonmoving) to "on" and moving at about 10smph, with only maybe 1/16" movement of the transformer throttle (I'm using a MTH Z-1000). I could get it to run slower than that, but it took really careful manipulation of the throttle - it was "touchy" and easy to overcontrol.

 

Per many forum reports, rewiring the Williams loco would result in a more controllable low speed, meaning that for a given speed range, more of the transformer's voltage control knob would be need to be moved, thereby giving a finer control over the speed of the locomotive.

 

Just last night I did this modification following the instructions and photos here:

http://s574.photobucket.com/us...ringdiagram.jpg.html

 

The result was fantastic! It now takes a bit more voltage to get the locomotive to move, and it begins to move much more slowly, requiring more throttle movement and affording very fine grained control.

 

The modification as I performed it was nonpermanent, easily reversible and required nothing more than a small Phillips screwdriver, a very small flathead screwdriver, and some electrical tape.

 

However, if you're not looking for maximum switching performance (read: control at low speed), then all of this is probably not necessary. If my NW-2 is typical, then I'd assume pretty much any Williams with similar mechanics and electronics would work just fine directly out of box when pulling a typical train.

Steve

The 4-6-0 should run slowly right of the box. Many, including myself, have been pleasently suprised how well the WBB 4-6-0 runs compared to other WBB steamers. Mine will crawl around the track at very slow speeds almost like it has cruise control. I've had it a couple years now and run it all the time. Smoke unit still works, too, which is sometimes a problem with Williams steamers. Hope to get another one soon to modify.

brr -   I hope you are right.   I want a slower moving train on my loops.   Since it has only 1 motor obviously the other method can't be done.  I should have the set next week and I do a carpet loop and try it out.

The WBB roadbed track supplied in the set looks a lot like Atlas Trainman Roadbed track.

Does anyone know if it is the same track?

Bob,

 

Like you I never had toy trains as a kid.  My father-in-law had Lionel trains and we would run them when my wife and I visited, but they never interseted me.  Then we got him a Lionel engine with sound (RS) and I started to get interested.  Shortly after that TMCC was introduced and I was hooked.  All my layouts have been command control (TMCC then DCS added when it came out). 

 

I inherited all my father-in-law's trains so I now have many conventional engines, including many good running but fast Williams engines.  I do occasionally run some of them through my Legacy system (my layout has no transformers with handles), mainly to remember the good times I had with my father-in-law.  Its fun to run the the conventional emgines for a while, but I'm soon back to my command engines.

 

Ron

 

 

The WBB Baldwin ten-wheeler is a particularly good, slow runner.  I was/am very enthusiastic about it: but every one I have now has Railsounds, too.  And surprsingly, at least with the ZW-L, it is not the slowest conventional loco: some of the recent Legacy, those since they started advertising "Refined Conventional Transformer Control Mode with lower starting speeds" will run slowest in conventional by a noticeable amount.  Still, the WBB ten-wheeler is sweet - a nice runner.

15 of my 17 O-gauge locos are Williams/WBB. The only loco I have that had PS2 gave me problems, so I pulled out the boards, dropped in a WBB board and I'm back in business. I like the simplicity and reliability of their products. I won't buy anything else.

I have 15 Williams or WBB engines.  No problems with any of them except for the smoke unit on one of the steam locomotives.  My newest is a RS-3, it is the best runner of them all.  For the money, I am very happy with them.

 

Williams offered the best variety of roadnames of any manufacturer.  Unfortunately, WBB doesn't offer as many choices.

The bulbs I use are made in Taiwan for Mode Electronics.

They do not sell direct, but through dealers which is on their website.

catalog numbers for white (cool):

12v  55-111w-1

24v  55-112w-1

What is the web address??

 

Thanks

Dominic

 

How much are those bulbs??

Website:  www.mode-elec.com

 

Price of bulbs:  2.50 each.  They also do red, green and blue.  Some signals and buildings can use these.  And these seem to be industrial grade, and very robust.