Thank You WBB for Trains that do LESS

OUTSTANDING AND CAPITAL IDEAS!!!!!

 

I truly hope the ""big"" guys are reading and thinking!!!!!

Has anybody seen the "big guys" read and think in other venues, such as politics and

the causes of the auto bailout?  It is my way or the highway.  UNTIL some competitor

forces them to change.

thats why competition is good for all of us in the long run

mth got his start because he thought he could do something better

Is it time for a thread titled: Thank You Lionel and MTH For Trains That Do More

At least W/WBB tend not to go into Gomez Addams mode:  out of box, lub, place on track, go 6 feet and blow up!

Ok thanks Dominic..

I live in New Hampshire no one up this way supplies them.. near me (same company) ...anyone else?

Try to see if you can order them from some merchant on the Mode site via the web or mail order.

Dominic, do you have an email? Can you email me in my profile?

Thanks,

 

That's why the producers need to make the engines "Plug&Play".

 

Offer every engine as a "conventional" engine with a simple plug-in unit if you want command.  Even if they came with an E-Unit, make it so it could be unplugged and swapped out easily with a command unit.

 

This was tried back in 1998 with TMCC/RailSounds.  It wasn't well received and discontinued in about one year.

Hear here!

Hi Chuck,

The smaller scales N, HO do this now. You buy a dc engine that is dcc ready from Atlas, Bachmann, Kato or Atheran (newer engines) or other brand loco. All you do is take off the shell and plug in and add your dcc (digital command decoder) put the shell back on and off you go. You can then run the engine in either DC or DCC, some brands will run on either. You do need a dcc controller of course to run the dcc. It would be nice if Lionel or MTH had this capability but I do not see that happening anytime soon.

I really am amazed by some of these comments. There is no doubt that simpler is less likely to fail.

 

However, how many of you have had a TV which was made in the last 20 years fail after you had used it for more than a few hours? Or a radio? Or a computer (other than the hard drive)? Or virtually any other electronic component? IMO, if they don't fail "out of the box", these are among the most reliable items you could ever get.

 

Can they fail? Of course.

 

Will newer designs render older parts obsolete? Of course. Is there really planned obsolescence here? I don't think so. The fact that I can upgrade a PS1 locomotive to PS3 if I choose, shows that MTH (at least) provides a replacement path for my older engine even when older electronics might fail. Should I expect them to still make PS1 parts? Unrealistic at best. 

 

Gerry 

Lionel made plug and play versions of their engines in 1998/1999.  You pulled the e-unit board and/or the whistle/horn board and replaced them with an RL2C receiver and/or a full RailSounds board.  EZPZ.  It didn't sell.  aka this technology was offered 15 years ago.

15 beers ago was just too soon.  Ancient history.  Try it now and see what happens.

 

Pete

It won't change.  The trouble is that an engine with all the bells and whistles/details that goes into a Legacy unit will cost almost as much as a Legacy unit.  The actual command board is the cheapest part of the equation.  This is why the original upgradeable engines didn't sell.  If you really wanted the full command/control/sounds you were better off buying the engine up front.

 

WBB  has a rugged and reliable drive train that's also about all they have.  This is also why they are inexpensive and run well.

Great thread with all this information. I have just stared to take everything out of the box to place on the layout, since running my trains is only about 30% of my enjoyment of this hobby, display and just being in the train room brings me peace and quite. 

Here is my inventory of WBB New Haven products

EP 5

GP 9

GP 7

SD 45

44 Ton

J Class 4-8-4

FA 1 A-B-B-A

E 60 

I hope to contribute to weekend photos in the next few weeks.

 

PS I to am also an IT professional. I start out as a decolator(machine to take carbon out of up to 6 ply reports) and burster (machine to pull invoices a part) at GE working 3rd shift 7 nights a week. 40 years later I am a data analyst for a small company been here for 18 years. If it wasn't for this forum I don't think I would on a PC at home more than an 4 hours a week.

To quote the song "What a long Strange Trip its been!"

 

This is why the original upgradeable engines didn't sell.

Chuck, What exactly is the reason WHY it didn't sell?  Here's my take, it doesn't have anything to do with the actual electronics:

 

A number of O scalers are simply unwilling to open anything up (i.e. take the shell off) to do anything that might decrease the value of the piece or cause damage, thereby decreasing the value.

 

It's the people, not the product.  If it was the product then it wouldn't be happening in any of the other scales either.  Are you saying that, since it has been tried before, it shouldn't ever be tried again?

 

Sometimes, holding fast to "The way it used to be" doesn't help the hobby advance.

 

A lot of people said they don't like the noise.  Well, turn it off!  One thing's for sure, you can't turn the sound on if it's not there.

Good to see another Red Green fan.

"When all else fails play dead"

 

 

I've gone through 2 flat screen tv's, and 3 irons in the last 5 years, so that rules out that theory.

Next, Chuck is right concerning the add on features. You wind up paying more for the ability to do it than just buying it upgraded in the first place.

Lastly, this is a post about William's trains. There is a botton near the top of the page where one can post a new topic about how more is better.

Bob, the most common complaint heard at the LHS's/dealers at the time was the cost of a loco that was "upgraded" cost more than if you bought the engine with sounds and command to begin with. You got generic sounds instead of specific ones for that engine and you had to buy the coil couplers as well.  It didn't make sense then and probably still doesn't.

 

I've done conversion on my two WBB engines (EP-5 and scale GG-1).  I got really good deals on the base engines and then swapped out the e-units and blast from the bast sound boards with Electric Railroad equipment.  K-Line coil couplers and some kit bashed cab interior for the GG-1.  The engines run well and have only the features I wanted which wasn't the case with the scale offerings from K-Line, Lionel MTH.  I think I saved $200 on the GG-1, less on the EP-5 because I swapped out the side castings (unit came with PA-1 frames and not the Commonwealth Delta 3 motor truck used on the EP-5).

 

Bob, the most common complaint heard at the LHS's/dealers at the time was the cost of a loco that was "upgraded" cost more than if you bought the engine with sounds and command to begin with.

Chuck,  Good point, but does the same thing happen in the other scales (other than everybody always complaining about cost)?  What you're saying is a bone of contention in O scale is the norm in other scales from what I can tell.

 

OR, maybe back in 1998 even the DCC modules for the other scales did cost more than if you bought an engine already equipped.  Has that changed and would it change in our scale?  Or would the manufacturers keep the prices artificially high regardless?

 

I don't own any stock to speak of in command control and if I could get nicely detailed, accurate models with fine slow-speed performance and minimum (or no) sounds that would be great too.  Especially at a lower price than I'm paying now for a detailed engine with command.

 

When Atlas came out with their GP9 I bought an unpowered unit painted for Seaboard.  I later realized I had no use for an unpowered engine and happened to win a Railking F3 on EBay for a bit over $100.  I took the PS2 guts out of the F3 and pout them in the GP9, it has run fine ever since and I saved close to $200 over what a powered GP9 would have cost.

 

I also bought an unpowered WBB E7.  I stripped the paint and repainted/decaled it for Seaboard and at the same time added a bunch of brass detail parts.  Then I decided to power it so I bought the power trucks.  Later I installed the ERR Cruise Commander and LED headlighting and a cab/crew.  THEN 3rd Rail came out with their E7 painted in Seaboard for $600.  That's about what I spent getting the WBB E7 to come close to what the 3rd Rail model looked like and performed like, not counting the labor $$$ I put into it.  Compared to the WBB E7, the 3rd Rail E7 was a steal.

 

I like my WBB E7 just fine now with all the mods, but none of the WBB stuff I've seen comes close to matching the looks of any of the other makers.  You're paying less, but it is what it is.  They're good running models, but IMO not great models (running or looking).

HO and N still do not have the current eating equipment in them that O does.  They also aren't as enamored of die cast as some of us are or the need to move 20 pounds of ZAMAC around the track.  

 

There really isn't enough market share to drive the price of the electronics down to the levels that compare to what is available in HO.  This isn't a matter of greed or ego as much as it is physics and economics.

 

WBB makes some nice stuff at a reasonable price.  It literally doesn't have all the bells and whistles but it doesn't have the problems associated with all those bells and whistles.  I did pose the question of what were they (WBB) thinking with the upgraded sound/detail on some of the new locomotives they are issuing.  This isn't their core audience and it isn't clear that there are enough people that will buy into a more complex and potentially fragile WBB product.  If they wanted complicated/fragile they can get that from any of the other vendors.  BTW, I'm not sure that less expensive fragile/complicated is an improvement in anyones book.

 

Hi Chuck,

You make some valid points. However you can buy O scale DCC engine decoders. For example a NCE brand decoder costs $50-60 dollars depending where you shop.  This is rated for 4 amps with 12 amp peak. This decoder has No sound, so add at least double the price to the original decoder and yes O doesn't have the selection of HO.

DCC as it stands now is not what was available almost 20 years ago.  The original DCC decoders for three rail O had to handle a lot more current than 4 amps which made them a lot more expensive.  You had to modify your engines in such a way as to not be compatible with the non converted engines. Finally, you could't run non converted engines on a DCC equipped layout.  Both TMCC and DCS allow the use of all of the toy trains that were made before them without modifying anything unless you chose to "upgrade" them.  

 

When someone comes up with a version of DCC that will allow 50 year old open frame motored trains to run on the same track without having to modify the 50 year old engine and not have the 50 year old engine mangle the DCC signal then you may see a mass migration.

Ok, "Hope Springs Eternal".

And if the sound systems sound was compared to "scale", the pressure wave would be worse than that of a hurricane.

I don't think the "legacy control features" in Legacy locos cost much at all: most of the price difference is for features and upgrades I want and use when I run conventionally.

 

Sometime in early '11 I gathered price and feature facts on a number of Lionel products and did a regression and comparative analysis and concluded that all those features I don't use because I don't use Legacy control but just run in conventional, were costing me less than $50 per loco.    

 

A good example is these two Lionel scale Atlantics, listed only six months apart in catalogs:

6-11317 Southern  Atlantic 4-4-2 #1910 - $549.99 conventional  (2011 Signature catalog)

- - - - - - - - versus

6-11225 Balt&Ohio Atlantic 4-4-2 #1440 - $699.99 Legacy           (2010 Volume 2)

 

This is basically the same loco(I've seen both) in conventional and Legacy versions.  With either you get the same casting, motor, etc., and standard Railsounds (only the standard features work if not in Legacy).  

 

For $150, here are the features listed for the Legacy loco that are not listed in the catalog for the conventional version - but will work in conventional, and what I think they cost, each.

$50 Odyssey II cruise control - this operates well and is controllable in conventional.

$10 Four chuffs - sounds better

$5 Illuminated cab

$5 Firebox glow

$5 Glass in the cab windows

$2 Fireman figure in addition to engineer included in conventional

$10 Illuminated classification lights

$5 builder's plates

$20 Whistle steam 

This is a total of $112 of the $150 difference: those Legacy-control system features I'm not using cost the rest, I guess, or about $38 as I see it: I just don't worry about that small difference. 

 

BTW, ironically I bought the conventional anyway: by the time I had done my comparison the Legacy version was gone and I had to get the conventional.  Despite the catalog text, mine came with window glass and a fireman, so I got $7 more "value" - but I miss the cruise a lot and wish it had the firebox glow and classification lights. Still, its a wonderful little loco

 

 

Chuck - I hope you won't mind me asking who manufactures those correct EP-5 truck side castings and whether it was necessary to modify them in order to install them.

 

Thank you.

 

Pete

They were the K-Line castings that I got from Lionel's parts department at the last open house.   I had to use some aluminum stock to make some fittings to match the K-Line mounting method to the Williams power truck.  I used heavy gauge sheet styrene to make the templates and then cut and filed/ground the aluminum to match.  The plastic was just too fragile for every day use.

 

Note that the prototype and the K-Line model have the correct 1' offset on the center axle.  The Williams has three equally spaced axles.  The overall wheel base is close and all of the third rail pickup equipment hides most of the issues of the offset.  I'll see if I kept any photo's of the conversion process.

 

I had already replaced the center tankage on the Williams model with a scratch built assembly and I'm still looking for the correct Hancock air chime horn and mini pantograph.  I only paid $125 for the Williams engine and the last release of the K-Line by Lionel EP-5 was $450 (and it wasn't a New Haven).

I have several Williams engine and the most powerful one for me is the GP-9. All the Williams engines have dual can motors and can be converted to series wiring if you so desire. One thing that I did to a set of F-7's was to replace the circuit board with a bridge rectifier because it would not start in the direction I wanted and it also cuts out on direction control with the bridge rectifier set-up.

I use a lower voltage transformer with my Williams, like the Troller TAC 2001,  and have less problems that way and I don't need to re-wire anything.

 

The only real problems I had with any Williams trains was the older Crown Edition passenger cars. The ones that have the fixed couplers will not hold the track for me, so I made them shelf Kings. There is at least two versions of Crown Edition passenger cars; one has fixed couplers and older Lionel post war style wheelsets, the other has newer or K-Line looking truck assemblies & center rail roller pickups with fast angle wheels.

 

Williams has a few remote control operating or unloading types of cars that use only the Williams remote control(no TMCC or DCS use).

 

Lee Fritz

Your analysis was great... I'm chuckling because it's the same kind of detail and scrutiny I put into most things.  Glad I'm not the only one. 

 

I made a similar observation when I was considering the lovely Polar Railroad K-4:

6-11331 $749.99 Polar Railroad Conventional Scale 4-6-2 K-4

6-11330 $899.99 Polar Railroad LEGACY Scale 4-6-2 K-4

All in all, only a 20% increase from conventional to Legacy on a higher-end locomotive.  Not unreasonable at all, from my perspective.

 

Other times, things seem a little different.  Now, the fault in my numbers here is that it doesn't take into account general price changes over a ten year period.  Still, it's interesting.

 

2001
6-28524 $429.95 Chessie TMCC SD40-2 #7616 (lights, smoke, ody, TMCC, RS, EC's)

 

2006
6-28245 $264.99 Chessie Conventional SD40-2 #7617 (lights, smoke, sounds, magnetraction)
6-28246 $159.99 Chessie Non-powered SD40-2 #7618

 

2013
6-38918 $529.99 Chessie LEGACY Scale SD40-2 #7609 (lights, smoke, EC's, RS, Leg, ody2)
6-38919 $529.99 Chessie LEGACY Scale SD40-2 #7611 (lights, smoke, EC's, RS, Leg, ody2)
6-38920 $239.99 Chessie Non-Powered Scale SD40-2 #7614

 

The difference between the conventional in 2006 and the TMCC and Legacy versions offered before and after seem significantly more pronounced... the 2001 version was about 62% more and the 2013 was about 98% more (nearly double).

 

It is what it is, and frankly, I'm thankful Lionel has so many options for the same road and same model.  Still, I'd like to see some moderately-priced conventional offerings in the mix more often from them--that model from 2006 is among my favorites.  As much as I love Williams' products, they don't compare from a cosmetic and detail standpoint--and their Chessie colors are pretty off.  

I'm still trying to analyze where the word anal comes from.

 

Gerry

just wanted folks to know I ordered a sample 12 and 24volt LED in white and after talking to the person at the bulb dept a yellow LED to try out in the cabs of my F-3''s and F-7''s.

 

If this works I will be replacing ALL my bulbs with LED''s as I will get the brightness I am seeking for my WBB engines.

 

and yes the conversion is built into the bulb all you have to do is unscrew the old incandescent and put in screw or bayonet the new LED!!!!

 

 

it''s exactly the replacement I was looking for.

 

In addition when I called WBB for some help the person informed me that ALL locomotives will be made using LED''s for their lighting as incandescents are becoming hard to find and the company''s are going out of business. HE also added that all the sound systems are being upgraded and modified.

 

Can''t wait to see that !!!!

Great information, thanks for sharing that. What is the link for the bulb depot?

i would think 24 volt would work better especially with my z4000 transformer, 24 volt seems more robust.

I ordered a few of these LEDs and although they were claimed to be white, they were very blue in appearance.  I didn't use them based on this.  If folks have a recommendation for ones that are more white in appearance, I would appreciate it. 

I don't know if this will help but there is an Ebay vendor called Trainaidsa. I haven't tried him yet but I too have been searching for a source for LED's that would be a direct replacement for bayonet or screw mount incandescent bulbs and this fellow seems to be the one guy who has model railroaders in mind.

 

Maybe there should be a "sticky" or something where a list of LED sources could be compiled. This thread seems to have diverged into two subjects.