Perhaps this announcement will inspire Model Rectifier Corp to complete the planed expansion of the Loco Genie system to O scale. Its wireless command technology with sound, perhaps similar to LionChief.
Perhaps Lionel might be considering making LionChief Plus with Bluetooth available as command upgrades with sound? A more modern technology with modern electronic components, and compatible with smartphones and etc.
Just sent a email to Lionel.
For me I just got back in to O gauge about a year and 1/2 ago. Part of the reason I got back in was due to being able to add board to new and used cars to add electro couplers and car activation now this isn't an option with TMCC/Legacy.
Jim Stefl posted:I think the present Lionel employees are in favor of ERR. We need contact information on the financial owner and the comic Book dude. They make the real decisions.
MartyE posted:Jim Stefl posted:I think the present Lionel employees are in favor of ERR. We need contact information on the financial owner and the comic Book dude. They make the real decisions.
The "Comic Book Dude" hasn't been with Lionel for over 5 years or more.
Hey, if it wasn't for him would I have my cute MTH "Jerry's Comics" building? 
Landsteiner posted:TMCC support is now Legacy support. The system, as you no doubt know, is backward compatible.
More money, more complexity, more to go wrong. Besides, as soon as people go this route, they'll drop Legacy for the Next Great Thing. Nope: once bitten, twice shy. I will not make the mistake of relying on Lionel again.
Josef, you can download the steam & diesel upgrade instructions from the MTH web site. You can also download any sound files from that site. It's as easy as downloading any other programs, except it's also free of charge. You can also download any software to keep any DCS hardware, regardless of vintage, running the latest version of software; also free.
Sound files and software are loadable to the DCS hardware and to locos through the DCS Loader program, also free.
The Loader program has full on-screen step-by-step instructions on how to proceed. There is also a programming manual somewhere on the DCS website.
rvhirailer posted:"...Am I correct in assuming Lionel production numbers have decreased ...."
Attempting to address your comment, the only info I can offer is an excerpt below from Steve of MRMUFFIN'STRAINS in his post today of an announcement made by Lionel's Ryan Kunkel during last Friday's OGR Grandstand meeting.
"Lionel LLC—Ryan Kunkel:
Ryan announced that 2017 was the best year for Lionel in over a decade and thanked everyone for their purchases and their support. He said the factories have stopped asking Lionel for more work as they keep up with the shipping of new products..."
Ken-Oscale posted:Perhaps this announcement will inspire Model Rectifier Corp to complete the planed expansion of the Loco Genie system to O scale. Its wireless command technology with sound, perhaps similar to LionChief.
Perhaps Lionel might be considering making LionChief Plus with Bluetooth available as command upgrades with sound? A more modern technology with modern electronic components, and compatible with smartphones and etc.
Ken, that has no compatibility with the legacy remote?
Ken i like the mrc approach you can run it on any system you have, will be great for those broken down engines
Thoughts I pondered after calling and cancelling pre-orders on Lionel H10 and SW7. If Lionel will still be supplying TMCC systems to Atlas and 3rd Rail, but not to consumers. How will that effect consumers when boards go bad after warranty? They won't be able to replace, and it means more outlay in labor cost and shipping cost to get repaired. Why stop if still producing TMCC systems not make them available and add profits by also including consumers, us as buyers?
I don't understand Lionels decisions, except possible that engines will be of the once they die, hoping new engines will be purchased to replace rather the fixing same. Also it takes many technicians who have upgraded and repaired TMCC systems out of the repair business and we know Lionel is backed-up in accepting out of warranty work.
For me, its any easy decision, don't purchase any new Lionel products, nor Atlas and 3rd rail. Any new engines will only be MTH as well as used engines I have an interest in.
RJR posted:"So who can buy PS3 upgrade kits? Are they available for public purchase"
YES! PS2 kits have been available since 2004 and PS3 since shortly after it was released.
As I assume everyone here knows, PS2 Kits upgrade kits are no longer available. Only upgrade option now is PS3.
Does anyone happen to have names and email contact information for the investor(s) who own Lionel? I wish to send emails to advocate my position on current Lionel leadership.
I have a few locomotives I'd like to upgrade to TMCC because of their small size/lack of interior space. Now I'm thinking that DCC might be the route to take over the long term.
GregR posted:Does anyone happen to have names and email contact information for the investor(s) who own Lionel? I wish to send emails to advocate my position on current Lionel leadership.
agree
The point made about killing the upgrade market to force buyers into purchasing new locomotives makes business sense. It is a PR disaster but I suppose the bean counters have said enough. That being said, the price per new loco just isn't in my wheelhouse. I have several locos I wanted to upgrade to TMCC because the cost was reasonable, it was compatible with my current setup and I could purchase a few boards a year until I finished the fleet. Now it looks like I had better try to secure the boards now or be stuck with some bricks that will forever remain on the shelf. I am not the optimist like Marty, I don't see this product line being picked up given it was a one man show. I am not about to switch to an entire new CC system like DCS either. The single comment I find interesting in all of this is ERR was in the black, marginally, but in the black. Now if it were marginally in the red this makes more sense. I highly doubt killing the upgrade path is going to generate more sales, I expect the opposite will be true.
GregR posted:Does anyone happen to have names and email contact information for the investor(s) who own Lionel? I wish to send emails to advocate my position on current Lionel leadership.
This is an especially bitter pill for me to swallow, as my small club and I run all TMCC, and we especially have been fond of the ERR upgrades. We have several dozen conversions, with another six in the pipeline. I have even been buying NOS locos with the intent of converting them. We run long lashups and the cruise commanders have been super for that. I sincerely hope that someone else is able to provide something similar. It actually may make me personally go to HO and abandon O, it is that serious of a situation for me.
necrails posted:The single comment I find interesting in all of this is ERR was in the black, marginally, but in the black. Now if it were marginally in the red this makes more sense. I highly doubt killing the upgrade path is going to generate more sales, I expect the opposite will be true.
"Marginally" is all relative. Depends on how much salary and your expenses you remove prior to the bottom line. There is the often repeated saying how airlines haven't turned a profit since the Wrights first flight yet the CEO's and other execs seem to do exceedingly well. Even if in the red, how many TMCC/Legacy controllers did these installs sell? And once you have that hook set, maybe your other locos follow with the same operating system?
If there is a new "ERR" hopefully they finally make a TMCC board that just plug into the Proto1 board such as Digital Dynamics did. Most operators I've seen don't need exact miles per hour, they are just running trains in a loop!
I happened to notice in Lionel's 2018 volume 1 catalog that, in the description of the forthcoming LCS CSM2, which is designed to monitor the throw position of DZ-2500 switch machines, it says that a DZ-2500 connection board is available from ERR. I don't use DZ-2500 switch machines, so this doesn't affect me personally and I have no direct knowledge of how it works; but if a connection board is needed to use the CSM2 with DZ-2500 switch machines and that board is supposed to be available from ERR, will folks who have DZ-2500 switch machines actually be able to use the CSM2 with them?
OK so how many have written Lionel to voice their displeasure? I did. Just saying. If you are unhappy about this let your voices be heard.
I am with Marty, I'm more concerned that any future purchase of product if dies (electronics failure) that I now have a self queen. I operate my equipment and will not put money out for something that cannot be operated.
Another disappointed tinkerer here. Yes, Lionel got a response from me also. Bring back ERR!
Bruce
bigdodgetrain posted:GregR posted:Does anyone happen to have names and email contact information for the investor(s) who own Lionel? I wish to send emails to advocate my position on current Lionel leadership.
Guggenheim no longer owns Lionel.
You are barking at the moon.
MartyE posted:OK so how many have written Lionel to voice their displeasure? I did. Just saying. If you are unhappy about this let your voices be heard.
Sent a email yesterday Marty.
Nick
Most of my new locomotive purchases are Lionel Legacy, I have a couple MTH premier engines, but I'm mostly into Lionel. I really don't plan on upgrading any of the postwar Lionel engines that I own.
I do own one Williams SD45 engine in Wisconsin Central. (I only have one Williams Locomotive) I have the Lionel Legacy Wisconsin Central SD45 from Lionel 2018 C1 on order with my dealer. However, I plan on keeping the Williams engine as it was a birthday gift from my family almost a decade ago. I called ERR company this morning and talked with Ken to upgrade my Williams SD45. I have my order placed and secured for the correct electronic boards. I'm glad I made the call, ...I got lucky.
Moving forward, I don't really have any other engines to upgrade. I do think Lionel should consider offering these to consumers again in the future.
Dear Marty Eibeck
Thank you, for the information and keeping this thread nice. I have sent my e-mail to Lionel yesterday in regards to ERR.
I really think that someone from Lionel with some kind of integrity stand up and say something about ERR and if there is a replacement ERR coming. I think that Lionel really stuck it's head in a hornets nest with this one.
Keith L posted:I happened to notice in Lionel's 2018 volume 1 catalog that, in the description of the forthcoming LCS CSM2, which is designed to monitor the throw position of DZ-2500 switch machines, it says that a DZ-2500 connection board is available from ERR. I don't use DZ-2500 switch machines, so this doesn't affect me personally and I have no direct knowledge of how it works; but if a connection board is needed to use the CSM2 with DZ-2500 switch machines and that board is supposed to be available from ERR, will folks who have DZ-2500 switch machines actually be able to use the CSM2 with them?
Dave Olson of Lionel said that Lionel will continue to make the Breakout PCB board for the DZ2500 switch machines so that these switch machines can be used with the new CSM2. They can be ordered from the Lionel parts department.
Neal Jeter
nvocc5 posted:Dear Marty Eibeck
Thank you, for the information and keeping this thread nice. I have sent my e-mail to Lionel yesterday in regards to ERR.
I really think that someone from Lionel with some kind of integrity stand up and say something about ERR and if there is a replacement ERR coming. I think that Lionel really stuck it's head in a hornets nest with this one.
The announcement was made during the Legacy meeting. The decision was made above those folks representing Lionel at the meeting. The same folks that post here regularly are NOT the folks that made the decision and provided us with the information they had and were able to share. Unless they hear differently from above, I suspect there isn't much to say unless something changes. I hope that we can continue to keep the open dialog somewhat civil and remember that Dave, Ryan, Rudy, and others that post here from Lionel were not responsible for the decision and most likely are limited to what they can share.
Hello Everyone, I had posted this on the tinplate trains but this may be a better bet.
I've been thinking about adding the Lionel 6-13004 TMCC Hiawatha Standard Gauge set to my Christmas around the tree/room carpet layout mix. For Xmas 2017 I had 3 Lionchief sets on 060, 072, 084 fastrack circles around our tree and a postwar 726 running from one end of the basement to the other with an 096 arch around the other loops of the tree. I'd like to replace the 084 fastrack with tinplate standard gauge track. There are a couple of Hiawatha sets new in the shipping cartons on eBay and I so want to pull the trigger and buy a set. I've been watching YouTube videos and reading threads here on this wonderful forum about it. I talked to Mike our standard gauge guy at the last Lakes and Pines TCA meet who runs standard gauge trains at the meets and some shows as well. He owns one had nothing bad to say about the Hiawatha set. I really haven't found any bad words about it. Mike did say the TMCC board could be an issue at some point, or it could show up dead but that there are local guys here in the Twin Cities who could repair them.
So that said... Will the decision by Lionel to pull the plug on EER affect repairing this set if a board fails??? I plan on running it in conventional mode. It's a big investment and don't want to loose out if it can't be repaired. Sorry for my rambling on...
Thanks for your help, I really want to get a set!
Best Regards, Russ...
If Lionel wants to continue offering the ERR product line, would it not be feasible for them to incorporate it into their regular product line, including parts, that they're managing and selling out of their headquarters in North Carolina? It would seem that all the infrastructure that would be needed is already in place there. Perhaps the product line might require the addition of a dedicated staff member to oversee it and to provide customer support. I would think that running it out of North Carolina would be more profitable that running it out of a separate operation in California. Wasn't that at least part of the thinking that prompted Lionel to consolidate all their other operations (Ohio, Michigan, New York) in North Carolina?
Matt Makens posted:You guys never know, maybe with the loss of ERR will come the introduction of the Legacy upgrade. Now that would be sweet. ERR is nice, Legacy is better. r
I would assume Legacy upgrade parts would be more expense, and more difficult to install, but that's just a guess.
I wonder if LionChief Plus parts could be offered for upgrades.
The latest thing I caught today on this subject is that ERR was "promoting older technology" - true enough, but that older technology was also a better technology. The organic de-bugging process of age and experience do make for improvements, and TMCC, as a tool for enjoying your hobby, is superior to Legacy, DCS and - certainly - DCC. (I've never talked to a DCC user, regardless of scale, who actually liked the stuff. One I exposed to TMCC - and he said that he had no idea that command control could be fun.) The CV's are good - to a point. But there are now 200 of them, I think...?
TMCC works. It just does, It's friendly, stable, durable, and elegantly simple to use and understand. It is easy to install. It is, in reality, cheap.
I saw one of the full DCS manuals when it first came out. It looked like something from Microsoft (so thick). I looked at my TMCC manual. 1/4", maybe - and the "getting started" version (only one I typically needed) was a pamphlet. A pamphlet! I only used the "big" one for the lash-up directions.
ERR is causing guys like me to freshen up old stuff rather than buy new stuff, certainly. Mostly because that's where so many desirable pieces are: suffering with PS1 boards, or E-units. Hate to tell 'em, but this decision to kill the best technological deal in town (monetarily and functionally) will not cause me to buy any new Lionel (or other) product. Of course, it will do just the opposite. This will not move me to Legacy or anything else.
TMCC does what I want. The CAB-1 has only a few buttons (I won't even mess with a CAB-2; so busy, so ugly...). Good. CAB-1 has no display screen. Good; I know what I'm doing. Forget the engine # you entered? Put a Post-it Note on it, for Pete's sake.
My command base has never failed; my CAB-1 is 20+ years old with an antenna that won't even retract all the way. It's dirty. It seldom needs batteries. They - the control equipment and the locos with the boards - all live in a building that is only heated/cooled when I'm out there. TMCC tolerates dirty track, which the "D's" (DCS/DCC) do not. It's the old radio control aircraft idea. Proven.
But, this is 2018. Common sense - from both sellers and buyers - is a rare thing. Probably going to be a collectable itself, one day.
I don't know why Lionel is doing this but I do know that I will not buy any more Lionel trains if they do not reverse their decision. I thought about canceling a preorder for a Polar Express but I do not want the dealer I ordered it from to be stuck with it. It's not his fault that this happened. What happened to no train left behind Lionel?
bigdodgetrain posted:GregR posted:Does anyone happen to have names and email contact information for the investor(s) who own Lionel? I wish to send emails to advocate my position on current Lionel leadership.
I'm pretty sure a company with $295 billion in assets will be all ears!
While this announcement took me by surprise too, I wonder if perhaps Lionel just has done a poor job explaining their technology path. If Lionel was to offer Legacy upgrade kits or bluetooth upgrade kits than likely the closing of the ERR product line may just be a natural progression. Lets hope we get some further details in the coming days that may put the ERR announcement in some kind of perspective that makes more sense.
I really hope if Lionel is cutting the ERR line off that something else will fill its shoes. Lionel has had more than 10 years to fine tune Legacy, so Legacy upgrade equipment SHOULD be ready by now, with both the ERR line being discontinued really soon and Legacy having replaced TMCC in the actual product line for almost 10 years.
I'm tempted right now to buy all the ERR equipment I will be needing in the near future right now to guarantee I will have them when I finish this semester in school, even after the York show. I have two 90's Hudsons that I plan on motor converting and using with the existing, older sound systems - something the ERR equipment could do very easily.
I just sent the following to Lionel:
Re: Decision to discontinue selling ERR products:
Can you please provide clarification as this was announced at the York, PA train show last week. Many loyal to Lionel hobbyists have come to rely on the great ERR products to make non-TMCC trains and accessories more fun.
While the ERR products may not be a big money maker for Lionel, from what I am hearing on the O Gauge RR online forum is that many are unhappy with the prospect of not having these great products available for upgrades and or repairs. I personally link Lionel with ERR and have many of the ERR products currently in use o my layout.
I'm sure a solution is available that could keep the products available perhaps as direct purchase items from Lionel service.
Thanks so much for your consideration. I have been a Lionel supporter since the early 1950s and run my Lionel trains often on my large home layout.
FWIW, Lionel priced me out of the market for new engines a while ago. I can afford them--but am not willing to pay for them and this action certainly isn't going to change my mind.
I have done ERR upgrades and DCS upgrades.
One ERR upgrade is now in limbo.
No more Lionel, Atlas-O, 3rd Rail or Weaver purchases (new or pre-owned) until there is an upgrade path that I can afford.
I will concentrate on my MTH fleet and run my numerous Atlas-O and Weaver TMCC engines.
TOO BAD for all of us.
MartyE posted:nvocc5 posted:Dear Marty Eibeck
Thank you, for the information and keeping this thread nice. I have sent my e-mail to Lionel yesterday in regards to ERR.
I really think that someone from Lionel with some kind of integrity stand up and say something about ERR and if there is a replacement ERR coming. I think that Lionel really stuck it's head in a hornets nest with this one.
The announcement was made during the Legacy meeting. The decision was made above those folks representing Lionel at the meeting. The same folks that post here regularly are NOT the folks that made the decision and provided us with the information they had and were able to share. Unless they hear differently from above, I suspect there isn't much to say unless something changes. I hope that we can continue to keep the open dialog somewhat civil and remember that Dave, Ryan, Rudy, and others that post here from Lionel were not responsible for the decision and most likely are limited to what they can share.
I just emailed Lionel Marty. I hope Lionel listens to us.
I have emailed Lionel as well. I had not gotten to the skill level of using one of the TMCC upgrade kits but took comfort in knowing that it was available and people like Alex M. were available to do the upgrade.
here is what I wrote:
Dear Lionel,
I rejoined the O-gauge hobby in 2000 and have been enjoying the fun that is Lionel Trains. Over that time, I have been a regular customer of Eastside Trains in Kirkland, Washington. The vast majority of my Lionel Trains purchases have been at Eastside Trains where I take advantage of their “early buy” program. These have been substantial purchases over the years (presently my preorders total nearly $xyz).
I was disheartened to learn that Lionel is closing down The Electric Railroad Company, and thereby ending the market for TMCC upgrade kits. These kits were helpful to upgrade or repair relatively recent Lionel equipment. So, in effect, a large portion of my modern era collection will be worthless because there will be no way to repair them in an economically efficient way.
I believe that the secondary market for Lionel trains will be negatively impaired by your actions and that this will have a negative financial impact for Lionel LLC for the following reasons:
Given the current situation of repair issues, I will not be making major purchases of Lionel Trains, specifically Legacy Engines due to their costs and complexity.
I used to tell friends that my vintage Lionel trains, which are older than me will run for another 60 years. That is the reputation that Lionel Trains have. Please do not discard that heritage! Please keep supporting these key components that keep the TMCC market alive.
Respectively,
D500 posted:The latest thing I caught today on this subject is that ERR was "promoting older technology" - true enough, but that older technology was also a better technology. The organic de-bugging process of age and experience do make for improvements, and TMCC, as a tool for enjoying your hobby, is superior to Legacy, DCS and - certainly - DCC. (I've never talked to a DCC user, regardless of scale, who actually liked the stuff. One I exposed to TMCC - and he said that he had no idea that command control could be fun.) The CV's are good - to a point. But there are now 200 of them, I think...?
TMCC works. It just does, It's friendly, stable, durable, and elegantly simple to use and understand. It is easy to install. It is, in reality, cheap.
I saw one of the full DCS manuals when it first came out. It looked like something from Microsoft (so thick). I looked at my TMCC manual. 1/4", maybe - and the "getting started" version (only one I typically needed) was a pamphlet. A pamphlet! I only used the "big" one for the lash-up directions.
ERR is causing guys like me to freshen up old stuff rather than buy new stuff, certainly. Mostly because that's where so many desirable pieces are: suffering with PS1 boards, or E-units. Hate to tell 'em, but this decision to kill the best technological deal in town (monetarily and functionally) will not cause me to buy any new Lionel (or other) product. Of course, it will do just the opposite. This will not move me to Legacy or anything else.
TMCC does what I want. The CAB-1 has only a few buttons (I won't even mess with a CAB-2; so busy, so ugly...). Good. CAB-1 has no display screen. Good; I know what I'm doing. Forget the engine # you entered? Put a Post-it Note on it, for Pete's sake.
My command base has never failed; my CAB-1 is 20+ years old with an antenna that won't even retract all the way. It's dirty. It seldom needs batteries. They - the control equipment and the locos with the boards - all live in a building that is only heated/cooled when I'm out there. TMCC tolerates dirty track, which the "D's" (DCS/DCC) do not. It's the old radio control aircraft idea. Proven.
But, this is 2018. Common sense - from both sellers and buyers - is a rare thing. Probably going to be a collectable itself, one day.
I could not agree more with everything said by D500! TMCC is the only control system I use, even though I own a number of Legacy locomotives. I've always felt that Legacy was just a gimmick to add unnecessary features, and raise prices.
For me, DCS is a non-starter, because I want use a computer to run some of my trains. DCS can't do that, because the command codes remain unpublished to this day.
DCC, while very powerful, seems like a royal pain. While it is open source, JMRI has developed Decoder Pro software in the hopes of simplifying the programming process. I always sit back with a somewhat smug grin, thinking about how simple it is to program my trains, while those guys are standing on their heads, trying to program theirs. I had an opportunity to go and operate on an HO layout last fall. What a hassle it was to use that remote.
Every once in a while, I need to buy an MTH or WBB engine. My layout has no provision for conventional running, I'm 100% TMCC. Lionel's decision to pull the plug on ERR is a disaster in my world. I said back on page one of this topic, that I ordered seven boards, Saturday night when I read this. I have three MTH engines I want to convert right away, and the potential for another four, but it shouldn't have to be this way!
This is extremely disappointing. I bought an older TMCC command base and cab-1 remote along with a k-line engine for my son for Christmas. I also had bought an older conventional Lionel Alco set and had planned to do the ERR upgrade. My long term plan was to do a few ERR upgrades so that we could afford to have some command control engines. At some point I was thinking about moving towards legacy in the future with the purchase of a legacy E-6 Atlantic. I love the history of Lionel but feel left out with this decision. With nothing affordable now to keep me with Lionel's command system I will probably look for alternatives. Sorry Lionel.
Big_Boy_4005 posted:For me, DCS is a non-starter, because I want use a computer to run some of my trains. DCS can't do that, because the command codes remain unpublished to this day.
Have you checked out Mark's RTC program that allows PC control of MTH DCS?
Click HERE for his webpage with everything you'll need to know if you are interested.
One thing that I can tell you for sure, this wasn't a 'sudden decision' that caught Lionel by surprise, when you have a business being run by a guy who is 80 years old and he is the only one, kind of hard to argue that, given that someone who is 80 could simply decide they want to relax, may be getting too old to handle it, or for other reasons. I know companies are shortsighted, but a decision to close down a business unit doesn't happen out of the blue, they take into account things like customer reaction to them closing down, the cost of closing a business, whether they have something else to replace it or are just basically 'throwing it away', it has been thought out. Ken retiring might have been the impetus for the decision, but they had to have been thinking of this for a while, the beancounters were running the numbers and so forth.
It could be that Lionel is going to turn TMCC including upgrade kit business over to someone else (given that Legacy is their command system, and it is quite advanced compared to TMCC), it could be they are going to finally offer upgrade path(s) to Legacy for older engines (I suspect not, given the complexity of what I have seen of Legacy control, and also I wonder how much such a kit would cost, it would have to be a lot more than TMCC upgrade). If they did this thinking it would force people to buy Legacy engines or LC+ in numbers I suspect they would be missing the boat on that, people who upgrade old engines do it either because of the price or in many cases, because they like their older units.
What it does sound to me like they made the announcement premature, that they should of, from a PR standpoint, announced the end of ERR but also mentioned what future options might be, even if they haven't finalized them, saying two doors open when one closes is to me boilerplate, that could mean "with the death of ERR, all you people can buy our new shiny legacy or Legacy units, instead of the cost and pain of upgrading that old clunker" as the two paths, who knows? One of the lessons companies still fail to learn is that secrecy and speaking before they have plans in place, or keeping their customer informed of major changes, backfires, what some thing is 'minimizing the damage' is what leads to the speculation we have seen on here over this, the anger and so forth. I don't know why Lionel didn't say much beyond ERR was shutting down, whether they hadn't formulated a plan for that segment of the community, or they thought it wasn't important enough to warrant that, but it is a mistake. Even if folks wanting to upgrade is a relatively small part of the community, everyone else who runs these trains is watching and something like this doesn't look good, even if it doesn't affect them directly *shrug*.
INTERESTING, INTERESTING, I'm in the stage of putting the finishing touches to my train room with the forcast of getting on my train table to start building. The funny thing is I have a ERR AC Commander board on the table with an old F3 that I was going to use to get my feet wet with. I got the F3 from ebay and it had a problem with the e-unit so it was perfect for the situation. I have 10 F3 units to convert to TMCC and 1 Williams NS OCS to convert with a DC Commander. I didn't make York last weekend because I've purchased about 5 new locos, 2 on BTO and 2 new 3rd Rail, so my York was made at home. I guess if I can't get any more AC Commander boards, I have a ZW-L that I can use with my F3's but somehow that doesn't satisfy me at this time with this announcement. Does anyone know where you can purchase AC Commander boards (for what they're worth and for how long), and the question surfaces - Will Lionel sell Legacy kits so that you can convert Post War trains to Legacy. A lot of wishful thinking. Other than listen out for more news, I guess I'll email Lionel and express my concerns because I doubt if Lionel wants to incur a shift of its followers to MTH.
It's possible to cobble together an AC rig with parts from Lionel parts if you're so inclined. It will be more work, and you'll get to understand how to make cables for TMCC, but it is possible.
Does anyone know if ERR is still filling orders? I have one in this past Saturday. I'm not getting any emails that its been refused by ERR.
H1000 posted:Big_Boy_4005 posted:For me, DCS is a non-starter, because I want use a computer to run some of my trains. DCS can't do that, because the command codes remain unpublished to this day.
Have you checked out Mark's RTC program that allows PC control of MTH DCS?
Click HERE for his webpage with everything you'll need to know if you are interested.
Thanks, but I'm not even going to consider it. My layout is too big, and not wired for DCS. I also have a personal grudge against the way Mike brought DCS to market. I cannot abide a patent troll. Ultimately justice prevailed, but that completely turned me off. I have a very long memory.
In addition, I own nine Cab-1's for use during operating sessions. This is another reason I don't care about Legacy. Cab-2's are twice the price. I don't know how expensive DCS remotes are.
I recently ordered a bunch of the new Legacy engines with Blue Tooth. My fleet is pretty large, and there's not much point to starting with a lot of MTH engines at this late date. The cost / benefit just isn't there for me.
Patrick1544 posted:Does anyone know if ERR is still filling orders? I have one in this past Saturday. I'm not getting any emails that its been refused by ERR.
I got a Paypal receipt for my order, so I have to assume that it will be honored. I'll be more unhappy if it isn't and I get a refund.
bigkid posted:One thing that I can tell you for sure, this wasn't a 'sudden decision' that caught Lionel by surprise,
No, I doubt that it caught Lionel by surprise, but it's at least possible that the decision to completely shut down ERR may not have been made that long ago either. Lionel included a page on ERR products in their 2018 volume 1 catalog.
I love TMCC and the ERR cruise commander as it makes my small fleet of steamers run like real scale models not 3 rail slot cars !! My plans were to eventually get them all converted. I ordered 2 more setups for my 2 favorite unconverted locos.
Going forward I may have a product with no support and no in kind replacement parts available.
I hope ERR can be saved or a similar product becomes available.
Time to send Mr Hitchcock an email.
I see where you guys are coming from. Let me offer a new perspective. I entered the hobby less than 2 years ago. I started with Lionchief plus then went on to Legacy. Lionel has to see the future. TMCC is 12+ year old tech and Legacy beats it hands down in performance and sound. I believe the best bet is devoting all available resources and personel to making the most cutting edge steam and diesel locomotives as possible. Lionel is on the right track. It looks like the next step is Bluetooth controlled Legacy. I know it hurts you can't easily upgrade the models of years past but the option will always be there. Although it may be now more difficult. I can't wait to get my 2018 H10 set and BN SW7.
It's pretty clear that this thread has struck a chord with the hobby. However, the only way that Lionel is going to hear us is if we treat this in a civil manner. Let's please stay on point.
If this is truly important to you, email Lionel at Talktous@lionel.com
For me personally this is very important that Lionel continue to support the adoption of the technology they created in 1995. Let your words be clear and firm, we will not let this important piece of Lionel fall away without a fight.
Thanks,
Derek
If you order from ERR you don’t get any emails, your packages just show up in 2 weeks.
Big_Boy_4005 posted:Patrick1544 posted:Does anyone know if ERR is still filling orders? I have one in this past Saturday. I'm not getting any emails that its been refused by ERR.
I got a Paypal receipt for my order, so I have to assume that it will be honored. I'll be more unhappy if it isn't and I get a refund.
Elliott,
I got a PayPal receipt also, but I always get a receipt from PP, no matter. I think It's just a PP service.
Thank you all for all of your support in the past it has truly been a great experience. Thank you also to the Forum for all that you have done for us modelers. But your delete of my last post has helped me come too a sad decision. With much sadness. Cheers Jim
I feel lucky to be hooked on Postwar, with good old conventional control using my ZW's. Not long ago, I ALMOST got the bug to try some TMCC. I am definitely over that urge now!
Jeff
Matt Makens posted:If you order from ERR you don’t get any emails, your packages just show up in 2 weeks.
Not surprised, so in two weeks I'll expect a package. At least with paypal if there's anything wrong I can get my money back. I also emailed Ken to thank him for all his help. No response, wouldn't be surprised if I don't get one.
Also for all those who emailed Lionel to reconsider. Did anyone get a response??? I haven't as of yet.
I just ordered a few mins ago and everything was still there except the dump car control unit. I think ERR is going to be swaped with orders for the next few weeks. I wanted do this purchase over time, oh well there goes my York funds.
rtraincollector posted:Jsulli21 posted:modeltrainsparts posted:This is very disturbing news to say the least. The one change I've noticed that the return labels on my last two orders from ERR indicated the package was from B.G. Technologies of the same Walsh Ave. address. Any explanations?
B.G.Technologies is the original name of the ERR company. I questioned ken when I ordered a board from ERR and saw the B.G. technologies on the invoice, and that was his answer.
Well if B.G.Technologies is who actually manufactures them, I wonder if someone could contact them and get the product from them. ( I'm not meaning as a individual but as a company that has the assets to do so)
B.G. technologies is ERR. Same co.
BobbyD posted:necrails posted:The single comment I find interesting in all of this is ERR was in the black, marginally, but in the black. Now if it were marginally in the red this makes more sense. I highly doubt killing the upgrade path is going to generate more sales, I expect the opposite will be true.
"Marginally" is all relative. Depends on how much salary and your expenses you remove prior to the bottom line.
If "in the black, marginally" is true, the likely reality is that profit margin does not meet the Return on Investment or Equity (ROI/ROE) that the ownership group demands. EBIDA is also a key decision factor for investment groups. What was acceptable 10 to 20 years ago is often not even half of today's investment standard.
As others mentioned, the increased utilization of Bluetooth component capabilities might be the path that Lionel and others might pursue. This situation could also further the argument for one control standard like DCC in the other scales. It's still disappointing news to hear when a good and greatly accepted product is given its end of life sentence.
As a business owner I can certainly understand Lionel in regards to the bottom. I do however believe they should make an effort to find and license a third party to offer these components. There is obviously a demand for the present and future for all of the offerings that ERR provided. This hobby has so many different categories and it sure would be a shame to see one (TMCC upgrades) fall off the map.
Alex M., this could be an opportunity for you. Why don't you give Lionel a call.
Ken, enjoy your retirement, you earned it.
Patrick1544 posted: "Does anyone know if ERR is still filling orders? I have one in this past Saturday. I'm not getting any emails that its been refused by ERR."
Patrick, I called ERR this morning and I was able to talk with Ken. He kindly suggested the components I needed to do an upgrade on one of my engines for command and sound. I placed my order via paypal while conversing with him. I was told my order was secured, and he still had enough to fill my order. Ken did mention that he was really busy with lots of orders over the weekend. I would think the orders placed over the weekend before mine will be shipped.
Ken is extremely busy filling all the orders, but very gracious in taking my call. The ERR operations are moving to North Carolina. Hope this helps 
BMT-Express posted:bigdodgetrain posted:GregR posted:Does anyone happen to have names and email contact information for the investor(s) who own Lionel? I wish to send emails to advocate my position on current Lionel leadership.
Guggenheim no longer owns Lionel.
You are barking at the moon.
then smarty pants who owns them???
the latest I have is;
It went from Cowen to Cohn to General Mills to Kughn to Wellspring to Guggenheim.
it was discussed in detail here;
bigdodgetrain posted:BMT-Express posted:bigdodgetrain posted:GregR posted:Does anyone happen to have names and email contact information for the investor(s) who own Lionel? I wish to send emails to advocate my position on current Lionel leadership.
Guggenheim no longer owns Lionel.
You are barking at the moon.
then smarty pants who owns them???
the latest I have is;
It went from Cowen to Cohn to General Mills to Kughn to Wellspring to Guggenheim.
I asked days ago for "those in the know" to cite a definitive reference about Lionel's ownership (e.g., WSJ, Forbes).
Crickets.
Notch 6 posted:
For me personally this is very important that Lionel continue to support the adoption of the technology they created in 1995.
Derek
Or else provide a suitable replacement. However, it is frustrating to learn that Lionel will continue to make the product in order to provide it to Atlas O and 3rd Rail, but deny it to hobbyists.
It is very possible one aspect of this is that the bean counter at the top wants to discourage people from upgrading their older Lionel (and other manufacturers') products, and push them toward purchasing new products instead. If that's the case, given the nature of those experienced hobbyists who do such upgrades, and all they already buy, I think this strategy is flawed. In addition, as it is, in many cases it is already a borderline proposition for many to spend the money (materials and labor) to do that many upgrades. Bottom line is that it's hard to see that continuing to provide ERR products to consumers is going to hurt Lionel economically in any meaningful way.
trainnut56 posted:Thank you all for all of your support in the past it has truly been a great experience. Thank you also to the Forum for all that you have done for us modelers. But your delete of my last post has helped me come too a sad decision. With much sadness. Cheers Jim
Apparently the moderators deleted it because you were WRONG!
gunrunnerjohn posted:It's possible to cobble together an AC rig with parts from Lionel parts if you're so inclined. It will be more work, and you'll get to understand how to make cables for TMCC, but it is possible.
A lionel lcru will work. Those are still available...from lionel for AC stuff
The LCRU or LCRU2 is a very poor substitute for the AC Commander. I replaced the LCRU2 in my Phantom when I upgraded it to two motors, the difference after sticking the AC Commander in was simply amazing!
breezinup posted:Notch 6 posted:
For me personally this is very important that Lionel continue to support the adoption of the technology they created in 1995.
DerekOr else provide a suitable replacement. However, it is frustrating to learn that Lionel will continue to make the product in order to provide it to Atlas O and 3rd Rail, but deny it to hobbyists.
It is very possible one aspect of this is that the bean counter at the top wants to discourage people from upgrading their older Lionel (and other manufacturers') products, and push them toward purchasing new products instead. If that's the case, given the nature of those experienced hobbyists who do such upgrades, and all they already buy, I think this strategy is flawed. In addition, as it is, in many cases it is already a borderline proposition for many to spend the money (materials and labor) to do that many upgrades. Bottom line is that it's hard to see that continuing to provide ERR products to consumers is going to hurt Lionel economically in any meaningful way.
"Bottom line is that it's hard to see that continuing to provide ERR products to consumers is going to hurt Lionel economically in any meaningful way." Baseball, to this day never recovered from the strike. It doesn't take much to **** people off.
shawn posted:breezinup posted:Notch 6 posted:
For me personally this is very important that Lionel continue to support the adoption of the technology they created in 1995.
DerekOr else provide a suitable replacement. However, it is frustrating to learn that Lionel will continue to make the product in order to provide it to Atlas O and 3rd Rail, but deny it to hobbyists.
It is very possible one aspect of this is that the bean counter at the top wants to discourage people from upgrading their older Lionel (and other manufacturers') products, and push them toward purchasing new products instead. If that's the case, given the nature of those experienced hobbyists who do such upgrades, and all they already buy, I think this strategy is flawed. In addition, as it is, in many cases it is already a borderline proposition for many to spend the money (materials and labor) to do that many upgrades. Bottom line is that it's hard to see that continuing to provide ERR products to consumers is going to hurt Lionel economically in any meaningful way.
"Bottom line is that it's hard to see that continuing to provide ERR products to consumers is going to hurt Lionel economically in any meaningful way." Baseball, to this day never recovered from the strike. It doesn't take much to get people to revolt.
You could make a home brew driver board as long as the R4 or R2LC boards are available. 
Do not use the 100uf choke in this drawing. It was to improve 2 rail performance but is not needed for 3 rail or if using the signal enhancer caps on 2 rail systems.
They can be made in for AC or DC motors.
We sold a version of this board called the MDB board for a while.
rthomps posted:bigdodgetrain posted:BMT-Express posted:bigdodgetrain posted:GregR posted:Does anyone happen to have names and email contact information for the investor(s) who own Lionel? I wish to send emails to advocate my position on current Lionel leadership.
Guggenheim no longer owns Lionel.
You are barking at the moon.
then smarty pants who owns them???
the latest I have is;
It went from Cowen to Cohn to General Mills to Kughn to Wellspring to Guggenheim.
I asked days ago for "those in the know" to cite a definitive reference about Lionel's ownership (e.g., WSJ, Forbes).
Crickets.
you two don't know much about PRIVATE companies do you!
bigdodgetrain posted:rthomps posted:bigdodgetrain posted:BMT-Express posted:bigdodgetrain posted:GregR posted:Does anyone happen to have names and email contact information for the investor(s) who own Lionel? I wish to send emails to advocate my position on current Lionel leadership.
Guggenheim no longer owns Lionel.
You are barking at the moon.
then smarty pants who owns them???
the latest I have is;
It went from Cowen to Cohn to General Mills to Kughn to Wellspring to Guggenheim.
I asked days ago for "those in the know" to cite a definitive reference about Lionel's ownership (e.g., WSJ, Forbes).
Crickets.
you two don't know much about PRIVATE companies do you!
The market demand seems obvious here. Now we need some entrepreneur EE’s to reverse engineer this board.
Carl Tuveson posted:You could make a home brew driver board as long as the R4 or R2LC boards are available.
Do not use the 100uf choke in this drawing. It was to improve 2 rail performance but is not needed for 3 rail or if using the signal enhancer caps on 2 rail systems.
... snip...
They can be made in for AC or DC motors.We sold a version of this board called the MDB board for a while.
While that's interesting Carl, the big benefit of the ERR stuff is the fact that it had excellent cruise control! The Lionel DCDR boards are a dime a dozen, I have half a dozen of them in my parts box if I wanted to go that way.
GHD posted:The market demand seems obvious here. Now we need some entrepreneur EE’s to reverse engineer this board.
And he better have a lawyer to deal with Lionel's lawyers. 
John, isn’t this stuff around long enough that any patents would have expired? Time for new improvements anyway. Go for it!
Robbie posted:Patrick1544 posted: "Does anyone know if ERR is still filling orders? I have one in this past Saturday. I'm not getting any emails that its been refused by ERR."
Patrick, I called ERR this morning and I was able to talk with Ken. He kindly suggested the components I needed to do an upgrade on one of my engines for command and sound. I placed my order via paypal while conversing with him. I was told my order was secured and he still had enough to fill my order. Ken did mention that he was really busy with lots of orders over the weekend. I would think orders placed over the weekend before mine will shipped.
Ken is extremely busy filling all the orders, but very gracious in taking my call. The ERR operations are moving to North Carolina. Hope this helps
Robbie
Thanks for the info and for getting a call to Ken. I know he's quite busy especially since this announcement became a reality. I have a weekend order in there too. I'll then expect it to be filled in two weeks time. Regards.
I do t know how obvious the market demand is. In order for it to be a good venture there has to be money in it. I can see a job for somebody for a while but then what? What do you do after you spend a bunch of money to buy the line and license from Lionel, then order the inventory then sell the boards. Running some rough numbers in my head, I can’t really make it work in today’s hobby climate especially since the two big customers are buying direct from Lionel.
Im more concerned with the repair and upgrade of non Lionel TMCC items that need a full blown install for customers who do not have the where-with-all or skill set to perform such tasks. Older TAS operates 3rd Rail and Atlas locos may be doomed. Possibly an MTH upgrade may fit the bill. I wish MTH would make it possible to set the gear ratio and chuff rate in the sound file for non MTH locos to operate correctly.
Im going to wait n see how this plays out and who does what. In the mean time, summer is coming, go outside and play
Matt Makens posted:I do t know how obvious the market demand is. In order for it to be a good venture there has to be money in it. I can see a job for somebody for a while but then what? What do you do after you spend a bunch of money to buy the line and license from Lionel, then order the inventory then sell the boards. Running some rough numbers in my head, I can’t really make it work in today’s hobby climate especially since the two big customers are buying direct from Lionel.
Im more concerned with the repair and upgrade of non Lionel TMCC items that need a full blown install for customers who do not have the where-with-all or skill set to perform such tasks. Older TAS operates 3rd Rail and Atlas locos may be doomed. Possibly an MTH upgrade may fit the bill. I wish MTH would make it possible to set the gear ratio and chuff rate in the sound file for non MTH locos to operate correctly.
Im going to wait n see how this plays out and who does what. In the mean time, summer is coming, go outside and play
Question! Then why sell spare parts? Think, that is a big money maker? It's called they wouldn't sell anything...
Hey guys....I am another one of the ones forced to move faster than I was intending. I want to convert a few older conventional engines to TMCC. Does the ERR AC and DC commander come with the R2LC board or do you need to buy that separately. I cant afford to do sound and cruise now...but do I need to get anything else to just upgrade a conventional engine so that I can run it with TMCC controls. Thanks.
3665 gjb posted:Hey guys....I am another one of the ones forced to move faster than I was intending. I want to convert a few older conventional engines to TMCC. Does the ERR AC and DC commander come with the R2LC board or do you need to buy that separately. I cant afford to do sound and cruise now...but do I need to get anything else to just upgrade a conventional engine so that I can run it with TMCC controls. Thanks.
The commander comes with the R2LC.
gunrunnerjohn posted:I was needless to say, bummed out by hearing this news. I will doubtless have to discontinue my Super-Chuffer and Chuff-Generator as not having TMCC upgrades makes them kinda' moot. I will obviously be emphasizing my PS/3 upgrade business since that's now the only command/control upgrade path it would appear. I discount BlueTooth at the present as I still haven't seen an O-gauge product. Sure makes me wonder why I didn't go with HO and standard control systems!
I'll be taking a close look at the MTH catalogs for my future purchases, hard to justify rewarding Lionel for jerking the rug out!
John, I checked the Hennings website last night to find that your Super Chuffer boards were sold out. I hope you will consider possibly taking orders for at least one more manufacturing run of your boards! Thanks!
You miss the point, there are no hard numbers to go on so it’s all speculation but let’s say the office costs 3k a month, employees John and Ken another 6k each so you’ve got 15k a month that’s 180k a year. Let’s add 10% for other costs that’s 2k and 30% for inventory that’s 54k 254k a year now they made 5k profit so let’s make it an even 260k in revenue. So let’s say atlas and 3rd Rail account for 30% each of the sales and consumers account for 40%. Lionel Has 60% of that business locked up so your left with 40% of 260k That’s 104k. Now you’re gonna have to buy boards from Lionel, you could expect to pay 50% of retail and so you have $52,000 in cost just for inventory, that leaves you the other $52,000 a year to pay rent, phone, internet, insurance, office supplies, electricity, and of course wages. So you tell me, where’s the money at?
Contrary to attempts here, it's not remaining civil. Patent troll is also more accurately referred to a NON PRCTICING ENTITY, which is not Mike Wolf for sure. If your insults include complex terms, please at least make sure they are accurate. lol
Patrick: "Thanks for the info and for getting a call to Ken. I know he's quite busy especially since this announcement became a reality. I have a weekend order in there too. I'll then expect it to be filled in two weeks time. "
Your welcome Patrick,
I do think Ken will need two weeks to gather all these orders and package them up. He mentioned he was rather swamped. Glad I made that call, and was able to talk with Ken.
He also mentioned that the operations of ERR are moving to North Carolina. Lionel may need some time to get everything moved and operational once again. I hope Lionel makes an announcement, perhaps at one the York meets about the future of these ERR products for consumer availability.
gunrunnerjohn posted:The LCRU or LCRU2 is a very poor substitute for the AC Commander. I replaced the LCRU2 in my Phantom when I upgraded it to two motors, the difference after sticking the AC Commander in was simply amazing!
Understood, John, But, better then no upgrade at all.
rthomps posted:bigdodgetrain posted:rthomps posted:bigdodgetrain posted:BMT-Express posted:bigdodgetrain posted:GregR posted:Does anyone happen to have names and email contact information for the investor(s) who own Lionel? I wish to send emails to advocate my position on current Lionel leadership.
Guggenheim no longer owns Lionel.
You are barking at the moon.
then smarty pants who owns them???
the latest I have is;
It went from Cowen to Cohn to General Mills to Kughn to Wellspring to Guggenheim.
I asked days ago for "those in the know" to cite a definitive reference about Lionel's ownership (e.g., WSJ, Forbes).
Crickets.
you two don't know much about PRIVATE companies do you!
Lionel, L.L.C. a North Carolina registered LLC
Registered Agent is Cogency Global
Current Members of LLC are the 2 below
Chris Elrod - Chief Financial Officer and Managing Director
Melanie Turner - Secretary
Non LLC-member executive of Lionel is Howard Hitchcock, President and CEO.
It is a private company, and regardless of who the investors are, the financial decisions would come down to the LLC members, and especially the CFO, in this case Chris Elrod.
GHD posted:John, isn’t this stuff around long enough that any patents would have expired?
They last 20 years from the date of the application, so I assume expiration will not occur for quite some time. I'm not sure this is a very useful question anyway.
Robbie posted:Ken....
He also mentioned that the operations of ERR are moving to North Carolina. Lionel may need some time to get everything moved and operational once again...
This is the only good news on the topic so far.
Perhaps our friends at Lionel can jump in and clarify?
breezinup posted:GHD posted:John, isn’t this stuff around long enough that any patents would have expired?
They last 20 years from the date of the application, so I assume expiration will not occur for quite some time. I'm not sure this is a very useful question anyway.
Most likely selling boards to third party.
shawn posted:breezinup posted:GHD posted:John, isn’t this stuff around long enough that any patents would have expired?
They last 20 years from the date of the application, so I assume expiration will not occur for quite some time. I'm not sure this is a very useful question anyway.
Most likely selling boards to third party.
It could have been updated with the advent of legacy?
Jim Harrington posted:Robbie posted:Ken....
He also mentioned that the operations of ERR are moving to North Carolina. Lionel may need some time to get everything moved and operational once again...
This is the only good news on the topic so far.
Perhaps our friends at Lionel can jump in and clarify?
At the Legacy meeting it was explained that any remaining inventory would be moved to NC in a few months. Once the remaining inventory was sold there was no plans to continue to sell upgrades to the consumer. As of now Atlas, 3rd Rail, and other manufacturers that use TMCC in their product would continue to get components. I wouldn't get your hopes up.
Again I cannot emphasize as Derek did above that we must really do this correctly and make sure we are heard. Whether Lionel continues or allows another vendor to offer upgrades we need to let Lionel that we want upgrades available. With PS3 upgrades for DCS being sold, this really needs to continue for those of us that have invested not only money but time in TMCC/Legacy.
Please write Lionel. Keep it professional but firm. Hey we saved the Black Module for now so you never know.
When all is said and done. They'll evolve a "blackmarket".......
Just thought I would add my two cents to this discussion.
While I am concerned about the ability to get repairs done to the TMCC and Legacy engines in my small roster it occurred to me that we as Lionel customers, both new and used, are investing in a 20 year old technology. We are counting on Lionel to support that technology in the future no matter the cost or availability of the parts to repair that technology. No manufacture does that in today’s world. New technologies are developed and applied and old ones, no matter how successful, are discarded. That, unfortunately, is the world we live in.
I suspect that Lionel was faced with the difficult choice here because of manufacturing costs. The cost of parts and the difficulty of getting these boards built in a quantity to justify a run by the manufacturer has become prohibitive. So I’m guessing that the boards on hand or in the pipe line are being used to satisfy the contracts they have with Atlas and Third Rail. And after they are used up the announcement will come that Legacy will be available to them. That leaves out the DIY hobbyist for now.
We can complain to Lionel but I’m afraid the bottom line and the use of old technology has ended the run of ERR.
Again just my two cents.
Dave
P. S. DCS is not immune to this either. It’s aging too.
It’s true that TMCC is older technology but who wants to upgrade their entire fleet of locomotives every so often? Not me that’s for sure. Upgrades are not cheap and usually not really easy.
In the other scales that use DCC that protocol hasn’t changed and it is older than TMCC.
It has been said that ERR was a really good product. Why fix what isn’t broken?
ncdave posted:Just thought I would add my two cents to this discussion.
While I am concerned about the ability to get repairs done to the TMCC and Legacy engines in my small roster it occurred to me that we as Lionel customers, both new and used, are investing in a 20 year old technology. We are counting on Lionel to support that technology in the future no matter the cost or availability of the parts to repair that technology. No manufacture does that in today’s world. New technologies are developed and applied and old ones, no matter how successful, are discarded. That, unfortunately, is the world we live in.
I suspect that Lionel was faced with the difficult choice here because of manufacturing costs. The cost of parts and the difficulty of getting these boards built in a quantity to justify a run by the manufacturer has become prohibitive. So I’m guessing that the boards on hand or in the pipe line are being used to satisfy the contracts they have with Atlas and Third Rail. And after they are used up the announcement will come that Legacy will be available to them. That leaves out the DIY hobbyist for now.
We can complain to Lionel but I’m afraid the bottom line and the use of old technology has ended the run of ERR.
Again just my two cents.
Dave
P. S. DCS is not immune to this either. It’s aging too.
Fair point. This is one of the reasons why I am surprised that so many folks seem resistant to the LCS and MTH applications for iPhone/Android. The reality is that supporting the hardware behind these Legacy or DCS systems is not a winning or long-term idea from a business perspective given the constantly changing nature of technology, and if it can be done on a smart phone, that is a win-win for the customer and the manufacturer. (This is what the founder of the ERR said in this thread, many pages ago as well.) The customer gets a cheaper and more modern interface that is, frankly, nicer to use once you adapt to it. The manufacturer gets out of the low margin, high-headache business of trying to source components for 20 year old technology.
As far as the TMCC upgrades go, I understand the disappointment from those who do the upgrades and I already emailed Lionel as these people should not just be left out in the cold. But that being said, has anyone from Lionel definitively said that repair parts for older locomotives will not be available? I understand that there is an implication that this could happen, but it would be good to have additional facts about what support will be offered for older TMCC equipment. Too much of the conversation here falls into "the sky is falling" tone and that is generally neither enlightening nor helpful. It could be that Lionel has a plan to offer a kit to retrofit, for example, the Bluetooth technology eventually. I have no idea but there are people here who may be able to learn more.
Hudson J1e posted:It’s true that TMCC is older technology but who wants to upgrade their entire fleet of locomotives every so often? Not me that’s for sure. Upgrades are not cheap and usually not really easy.
In the other scales that use DCC that protocol hasn’t changed and it is older than TMCC.
It has been said that ERR was a really good product. Why fix what isn’t broken?
But this is exactly the current USian business model: replace everything every few years to perpetuate the consumer-driven economy. It doesn't matter whether or not it works, replace it anyway. If something does continue to work after a few years, the manufacturers re-engineer it to fail sooner. Then create consumer hype (i.e. BS) to convince everyone that ONLY the LATEST and GREATEST and NEWEST and FASTEST and GIZMO-LADEN is worthy of their love. Everyone has to keep spending money like that--rather than, say, saving it?--in order to keep the machine moving.
I am no anti-capitalist, but I am becoming very much anti-consumer.
Ray Lombardo postedFair point. This is one of the reasons why I am surprised that so many folks seem resistant to the LCS and MTH applications for iPhone/Android. The reality is that supporting the hardware behind these Legacy or DCS systems is not a winning or long-term idea from a business perspective given the constantly changing nature of technology, and if it can be done on a smart phone, that is a win-win for the customer and the manufacturer. (This is what the founder of the ERR said in this thread, many pages ago as well.) The customer gets a cheaper and more modern interface that is, frankly, nicer to use once you adapt to it. The manufacturer gets out of the low margin, high-headache business of trying to source components for 20 year old technology.
Not everyone has a smartphone, and I would hardly call the "interface" nicer: it's too small, cramped, and difficult for many to use (eyesight, coordination, arthritis, . . .).
One has to wonder where the hobby is headed. The thread about York attendance seems to indicate the manufacturers, at least some of them, are unhappy with the turnout. Now we have this, what amounts to declaration that a prior platform will now be declared obsolete. This will certainly have impact on the future attendance at York and support for the manufacturer that abruptly cancelled the product. Ironic isn't it, complain about attendance and at the same event thumb your nose at your customer base. My prediction is Lionel will not respond to the emails from forum members and will do what it feels it must to meet their business plans. Now I have to make a decision, invest in some additional boards that will be unsupported or consider abandonment completely moving to something completely different or conventional. It's time to explore battery power and dead rail alternatives which appear to be growing in popularity across all scales. If I am going to invest money it might as well be something that doesn't only apply to trains. I am not sending Lionel an email, what I will do is vote with my dollars.
Ray Lombardo posted:ncdave posted:Just thought I would add my two cents to this discussion.
While I am concerned about the ability to get repairs done to the TMCC and Legacy engines in my small roster it occurred to me that we as Lionel customers, both new and used, are investing in a 20 year old technology. We are counting on Lionel to support that technology in the future no matter the cost or availability of the parts to repair that technology. No manufacture does that in today’s world. New technologies are developed and applied and old ones, no matter how successful, are discarded. That, unfortunately, is the world we live in.
I suspect that Lionel was faced with the difficult choice here because of manufacturing costs. The cost of parts and the difficulty of getting these boards built in a quantity to justify a run by the manufacturer has become prohibitive. So I’m guessing that the boards on hand or in the pipe line are being used to satisfy the contracts they have with Atlas and Third Rail. And after they are used up the announcement will come that Legacy will be available to them. That leaves out the DIY hobbyist for now.
We can complain to Lionel but I’m afraid the bottom line and the use of old technology has ended the run of ERR.
Again just my two cents.
Dave
P. S. DCS is not immune to this either. It’s aging too.
Fair point. This is one of the reasons why I am surprised that so many folks seem resistant to the LCS and MTH applications for iPhone/Android. The reality is that supporting the hardware behind these Legacy or DCS systems is not a winning or long-term idea from a business perspective given the constantly changing nature of technology, and if it can be done on a smart phone, that is a win-win for the customer and the manufacturer. (This is what the founder of the ERR said in this thread, many pages ago as well.) The customer gets a cheaper and more modern interface that is, frankly, nicer to use once you adapt to it. The manufacturer gets out of the low margin, high-headache business of trying to source components for 20 year old technology.
As far as the TMCC upgrades go, I understand the disappointment from those who do the upgrades and I already emailed Lionel as these people should not just be left out in the cold. But that being said, has anyone from Lionel definitively said that repair parts for older locomotives will not be available? I understand that there is an implication that this could happen, but it would be good to have additional facts about what support will be offered for older TMCC equipment. Too much of the conversation here falls into "the sky is falling" tone and that is generally neither enlightening nor helpful. It could be that Lionel has a plan to offer a kit to retrofit, for example, the Bluetooth technology eventually. I have no idea but there are people here who may be able to learn more.
This has happened before. QSI was the leader in 3 rail sound and control, then TMCC made QSI obsolete and they got out of the 3 rail game. But when they did, there was already something else ready to take their place. In this case, there doesn't seem to be.
If Legacy is better, why can't ERR make conversion kits for that?
ncdave posted:P. S. DCS is not immune to this either. It’s aging too.
I would say that DCS is evolving as it ages. Newer tech like the DCS explorer and WIU have expanded upon the capabilities of the DCS system. I like the fact that the WIU made tomorrow will work with the TIU I bought in 2002.
palallin posted:Not everyone has a smartphone, and I would hardly call the "interface" nicer: it's too small, cramped, and difficult for many to use to use (eyesight, coordination, arthritis, . . .).
I have seen first hand how the app has brought command control to those with disabilities that were never able to control trains with the large bulky remotes. There is an older member in our train club that has Parkinsons and operating the remotes with there tiny buttons is extremely difficult, let alone holding them like we do. The app with larger buttons ( on a 11 inch tablet) and the use of a weighted stylus has been much easier for him to use. Before the apps, he was limited to conventional operation only and even that was a struggle.
Also keep in mind that the apps are software, and easily changed. I envision someday where we as operators will be able to customize the look and controls we see on the apps. We would be able to put commonly used controls on the home screen of the app in any way we want them to appear. Personally, I wish the the red wheel on the cab remote was in a different location but that's never going to happen.
I'm predicting that future upgrades are likely to be Bluetooth from Lionel. Another possibility is the 2.4 GHz spread spectrum Lionchief technology. True, you cannot control either directly with the cab-1 or cab-2, at least at present. However, the advantages are truly substantial.
One, it will be dirt cheap compared with a Legacy or PS3 upgrade. Perhaps literally an order of a magnitude cheaper. Bluetooth technology has the economy of scale missing in our hobby's production of proprietary hardware. Literally hundreds of millions of products use Bluetooth each year. Maybe billions.
Secondly, the new Bluetooth or Lionchief upgrade product will be operable by a physical remote (also dirt cheap ) or an app on a smart device.
Thirdly, it's backwardly compatible in that a Bluetooth or LionChief loco (whether track powered or battery) will be able to seamlessly operate on any layout: conventional, DCS, TMCC/Legacy. Yes, you will need a second remote, separate from your older TMCC/Legacy/LionChief+ locos, but I don't see two remotes as being a major price to pay for improved simplicity, better reliability, and dramatically less expensive technology. Technology that will be around for a long, long time.
We'll see whether my crystal ball is working in the next few months to year. Lionel will almost certainly offer an upgrade path for command of some sort, or license the technology to some third party, as they did with TMCC. If not, they haven't thought things through .
palallin posted:Ray Lombardo postedFair point. This is one of the reasons why I am surprised that so many folks seem resistant to the LCS and MTH applications for iPhone/Android. The reality is that supporting the hardware behind these Legacy or DCS systems is not a winning or long-term idea from a business perspective given the constantly changing nature of technology, and if it can be done on a smart phone, that is a win-win for the customer and the manufacturer. (This is what the founder of the ERR said in this thread, many pages ago as well.) The customer gets a cheaper and more modern interface that is, frankly, nicer to use once you adapt to it. The manufacturer gets out of the low margin, high-headache business of trying to source components for 20 year old technology.
Not everyone has a smartphone, and I would hardly call the "interface" nicer: it's too small, cramped, and difficult for many to use to use (eyesight, coordination, arthritis, . . .).
I would also add the "human interface" (fingers) can sometimes fail. As I get older, it seems touch screens and buttons don't always respond on the first or second contact of my fingers. Even years ago, sometimes I'd occasionally have to press an elevator "touch" button a couple of times before it would respond.
Yeah, I know I could get some touch screen finger covers or a stylus, but why bother when I'm fine with a hand held remote?
Rusty
MartyE posted:modeltrainsparts posted:Thank you, Marty. Jim, referring to people with insulting nicknames is not necessary, and not productive.
I agree. If we are going to get Lionel to listen the last thing we need is to be insulting and vulgar.
I am 100% with you guys on this, lets not act like grumpy old men or spoiled children.
Ray
Even though Lionel stated that they will continue to supply TMCC product to Sunset/3rd Rail and Atlas-O will it continue to include the ERR cruise feature? Also, despite the stated assurances to supply, has this announcement caused concern for Sunset/3rd Rail & Atlas-O for the continued long-term usage of a TMCC/ERR product that is 22yr/10yr old and possibly not going to get the same Lionel support as accustomed? Are we approaching the time in Legacy's product cycle that Lionel will offer Legacy (full or limited version) to both Sunset/3rd Rail and Atlas-O?
Based on the very limited production of both Sunset and Atlas-O over the past few years, it would be interesting to know if the quantity of TMCC/ERR boards sold via Lionel/ERR to individuals is greater than the number sold to Sunset and Atlas combined?
IIRC this forum discussed similar topics when Lionel first announced their Legacy system a few years ago.
We can all moan and groan but at the end of the day the decision has been made, the immediate uproar will subside, and the sun will rise.
The electric train collectors and operators have supported Lionel, in one business form or another, for a 117 years.
The current "Lionel" clearly doesn't give a darn about us electric train collectors and operators, any longer.
The complete absence of this "news" at the various Forums at York by Lionel's spokesperson, while thanking us for a great 2017, says it all.
Hypocrisy and nothing but hypocrisy!
As a group, we either purchase their overpriced trains or we say "ENOUGH". In either event, it probably won't matter.
Now go and purchase your $2000 Niagara, or maybe not!
I might be a little backwards in some of the posts I'm reading, but reading on Bluetooth, WiFi, aren't those just control features? Can't those controls be incorporated into ERR kits in some way in near future? Also if Lionel will continue to supply Atlas and 3rd Rail with ERR products, who will do the replacement or repairs when these boards go bad? Will Atlas and 3rd Rail do the warranty work to repair and replace bad ERR systems?
Also if ERR kits are so far in the past, why are 2 great makers, Atlas and 3rd Rail still relying on these systems in newly produced engines? And why are so many satisfied with ERR products they have installed themselves?
ERR may not be the best, but it gets the job done in what it does offer and has many, including myself moved up to Legacy and the newest engines and features that were produced and those I converted with ERR hold their own alongside these Legacys and Vision line engines. I can also attest, I've never had a engine that ERRs were installed in fail after years of running, can't say that about many of the other MTHs and Lionel premium engines cost double or 3 times as much.
Let see, there is TMCC, Legacy, Lionchief, Lionchief+, Bluetooth and don’t forget the myriad of one offs in early starter sets. It costs money to keep supporting all these chosen different technologies hardware, firmware and software. So the chosen path is to scale back on the Consumer TMCC base. Given the size of Lionel compared the size of ERR, I’m perplexed at the decision to impact the large Consumer TMCC base Lionel has created.
Add me to the list of concerned hobbyists. I own several TMCC locomotives and don't plan to discard them, but am now concerned about availability of repairs and upgrades. I've had a few WBB engines converted to TMCC with ERR components but don't really have plans to do so with others. I'm stable and set, but worried what happens if/when something breaks down.
At the same time, I've always had that concern with my PW engines, about 1/3 of my collection.
I certainly don't begrudge Ken his retirement and wish him well. I appreciate Jon weighing in as the ERR founder. I can't blame him for selling his company to Lionel.
I also see Lionel's perspective on this even if I don't like it. Apparently the economics aren't there for them to support older technology. That said, I highly doubt that I would replace a failed engine with a Legacy item since I'm a semi-scale operator. LionChief + is attractive, and I do have one of them. I might add one or two here or there over time, but, if Legacy components take two days of labor incorporate, that's not worthwhile. My brother-in-law has both DCS and TMCC engines and like both, so if DCS components are available, I may switch failed TMCC engines over to DCS and run both over time.
My hunch is that if there's sufficient demand, some enterprising entity will come up with a solution. It's a shame Lionel purchased ERR and locked up the technology. That's the sticking point for me. I don't mind them abandoning TMCC, but simultaneously preventing aftermarket support seems pretty heavy-handed.
Bottom line for me is all Lionel has to do to fix this fiasco is make a statement saying they are offering the ERR part of their business for sale for someone who wants to take it over. If what I read in this thread is true and that person worked out of their home thus cutting out a lot of overhead they could make a half way decent buck selling the ERR kits.
OR Lionel could announce that they will offer new upgrade kits in the future that whether they be Lioncheif or Bluetooth will be compatible with the original TMCC system. It will be interesting to see if they do something with all this backlash.
Good point. Here we have one person waiting for a specific horn sound. There are others, like me, who don't care whether I know, or my guests know, if this or that is exact. Heck, just say the shop needed a horn and took it off an older engine. Or disinvite them from your train room. Haha I have very limited interests in a command system. I want my locomotive to go, go faster, go slower, ring bell, sound horn, stop. That's it. No quilling. Now steam blow down. O gauge is so splintered with these specifics, or lack of them. Unlike the the scalers who, no matter the track gauge, accept and want a fairly homogeneous product. As Pogo said, "We have met the enemy and they is us!"
I emailed Lionel. I counted last night that I have 16 locomotives that I planned to upgrade over the next couple years starting this summer, doing one every month or two. Guess that's not happening. Luckily most do still run conventionally, but I do have a couple that are dead and are just paper weights unless I can upgrade them. Some are saying it's because of retirement that this is happening. If that's the case, is anyone willing to step up and do the logistics? I'd be willing, but since it'd be a 2nd job, it'll only happen in the evenings, and since I'm out west, that means middle of the night for most of the country. As for Lionel offering a different path to upgrade, Bluetooth and LC are non-starters in my book. I have zero interest in using my phone to run my trains. And I do not like LC controls at all. My 3 year old even rather use a Cab-1 over the LC remote. TMCC may be old, but if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I hope Lionel will allow some other 3rd party to develop and take this market instead of shutting it down with lawyers. Perhaps they can work with John and offer a complete feature upgrade kit. But I'm no longer holding my breath. I'm also probably not buying anything new for a very long time as this has pretty well iced any fun and excitement I had in the future of this hobby as now instead of expanding and working on the path I had laid out for my layout, I now have to go back to the drawing board and start over as one of the stake poles was just removed and my plans are fallen to the floor.
One ever thing I have thought about. If Lionel doesn't change their minds I might sell every o gauge engine I have and switch to HO. I would hate to do this but I do not want to be stuck with a bunch of broken shelf queens. I have been checking into HO since I found out about this and I am impressed with what I have found so far. Hopefully a solution will be found before I have to do this.
Unless there is something in the wings, this will kill the idea of anyone wanting older engines from any source if they have any remote system(unless they go DCS or whatever other options out there) on there layout. We can speculate all we want, but as my local dealer has stated several times in the past few years, "They don't really tell us anything that they should" or "Yeah, they really screwed up big time and now they are scrambling".
I can't help but think that this is more severe than when they stopped making Standard gauge.
Walter Anderson, I believe you have hit the nail on the head!
I'm not happy about this event - not at all.
Like others, I'm not blaming Ken for retiring. But there needs to be a way of continuing the ERR upgrade path. TrainAmerica, Digital Dynamics, and now ERR? There really needs to be a path for upgrades. Certain regions will freeze over before I return to DCS. And purchasing Legacy locomotives with huge price tags is not a palatable option either - especially given that the locomotive I want is not available with Legacy.
I've written to Lionel and expressed my displeasure. They need to step up and do the right thing.
George
Alex M posted:J Daddy posted:Alex M posted:I generally don't speak out often BUT !!, this is so disheartening, simple solution ! place the ERR inventory in Lionel existing inventory problem solved. The product is still going to be produced on a regular basis for Atlas and 3rd rail locos, so why not continue to produce it for the consumer. I use it on a daily basis for my customers, how much more of a HIT is this hobby going to take. Cannot believe that such a quick decision has been made just to end ERR, this is a sad day !!!!!!!!!!!!
Alex
You know what they say Alex. When one door closes. Two more open. A solution will be found and in the long run it will only hurt Lionel.
Yes John i totally agree , this quick trigger decision by the top brass of Lionel, will 1000 percent only hurt them. Unfortunately it's going to hurt me pretty bad.
Not only hurt you, Alex and your JADA Enterprises, but also hurt the other 83 ERR authorized installers who are listed on ERR Company's website and might rely on the installations they've been doing to provide them with a source of possibly needed additional income.
And as an aside, if Lionel doesn't make accommodations to their decision, hopefully folks like GRG will continue innovating the the 3 rail hobby market and continue developing non-tmcc related and dependent products such as his led lighting kits which 3 rail hobbyists find useful and enhance the enjoyment of our trains.
Why does it matter if TMCC is 25 years old or 2 years old? Aren't the relevant criteria whether it serves a useful role in the hobby and whether it's profitable for Lionel (or whoever) to offer it?
I think it's abundantly clear that it's useful--whether for upgrading conventional or PS1 locomotives to command, giving new life to older locos with failed electronics, adding speed control to early TMCC locos, or bringing command control to operating cars, accessories, or switches. As has been pointed out, the technology continues to perform well in new locomotives from Atlas and 3rd Rail. Lionel itself continues to catalog products with TMCC, including motorized units and accessories.
Regarding profitability, Lionel has stated that the ERR line was profitable, if only marginally. It might be more profitable as part of Lionel's regular product line than as a stand-alone business. In addition, the synergy it has with Lionel's other products and the goodwill it creates cannot be quantified, but should be taken into account.
Finally, why does it matter, as some have said, whether you're using a remote or an app to run your trains? TMCC products can be controlled by Lionel's iCab or iPad apps or MTH's DCS app, along as you have a TMCC command base as part of your system.
Why does it matter if TMCC is 25 years old or 2 years old? Aren't the relevant criteria whether it serves a useful role in the hobby and whether it's profitable for Lionel (or whoever) to offer it?
Actually the relevant criteria is whether or not the parts are still being produced. If there's a component on the board that is no longer made then it's going to be tough getting it reproduced or finding a substitute. Everyone from our toy train companies to the U.S. military runs into the same issue. I've seen ships "borrow" parts from the ship berthed next to them so they can get underway because the lead time for getting a circuit board made can be in years and they can't wait that long.
The next criteria is...who are they going to get to make it? If the person presently making them retires, they have to possibly hire/train another person, takes time/money.
I can't find a battery for my 1965 Pentax, do I stop taking photos or do I buy a newer camera and continue to enjoy my hobby, the choice is ours.
There's always a work-a-round.
Bob Delbridge posted:The next criteria is...who are they going to get to make it? If the person presently making them retires, they have to possibly hire/train another person, takes time/money.
There's always a work-a-round.
The boards today are made by PC board manufacturers. Ken doesn't assemble the board. Give them the files and any manufacturer can make these boards, assuming the parts are still available.
Pete
ogaugeguy posted:Alex M posted:J Daddy posted:Alex M posted:I generally don't speak out often BUT !!, this is so disheartening, simple solution ! place the ERR inventory in Lionel existing inventory problem solved. The product is still going to be produced on a regular basis for Atlas and 3rd rail locos, so why not continue to produce it for the consumer. I use it on a daily basis for my customers, how much more of a HIT is this hobby going to take. Cannot believe that such a quick decision has been made just to end ERR, this is a sad day !!!!!!!!!!!!
Alex
You know what they say Alex. When one door closes. Two more open. A solution will be found and in the long run it will only hurt Lionel.
Yes John i totally agree , this quick trigger decision by the top brass of Lionel, will 1000 percent only hurt them. Unfortunately it's going to hurt me pretty bad.
Not only hurt you, Alex and your JADA Enterprises, but also hurt the other 83 ERR authorized installers who are listed on ERR Company's website and might rely on the installations they've been doing to provide them with a source of possibly needed additional income.
And as an aside, if Lionel doesn't make accommodations to their decision, hopefully folks like GRG will continue innovating the the 3 rail hobby market and continue developing non-tmcc related and dependent products such as his led lighting kits which 3 rail hobbyists find useful and enhance the enjoyment of our trains.
Kenn,
Of course i know many many others are going to hurt from this, it's kind of destroying the hobby. John and i always work with each on a weekly basis, that's why i mentioned just him and I . My best guess between John and I we do at least 5 to 8 upgrades each a month ( this is just a ballpark figure) so it's killing us. I can only hope that the top brass at Lionel realizes what eliminating ERR is going to do to this hobby.
TO ALL !!!!! THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH KEN AT ERR , HE'S A GREAT GUY WHO ABSOLUTELY DESERVES TO ENJOY HIS RETIREMENT. THANK YOU KEN FOR ALL YOU'VE DONE.
Thanks, Alex
Lionel has several folks on this board. There is no reason why someone from Lionel cannot step in and provide an official update with what's going on and what the plans are so that their customers can plan accordingly.
VidKidz posted:Lionel has several folks on this board. There is no reason why someone from Lionel cannot step in and provide an official update with what's going on and what the plans are so that their customers can plan accordingly.
Maybe they have nothing to update? It's only been 3 days since the news was announced. Most likely yesterday was a recovery day as well as one to even digest the 7 or 8 pages of this thread if they even looked. Even if they have discussed it further I doubt they had time to even formulate a plan. I suspect there is no new news so there is nothing to update.
Bob Delbridge posted:Why does it matter if TMCC is 25 years old or 2 years old? Aren't the relevant criteria whether it serves a useful role in the hobby and whether it's profitable for Lionel (or whoever) to offer it?
Actually the relevant criteria is whether or not the parts are still being produced. If there's a component on the board that is no longer made then it's going to be tough getting it reproduced or finding a substitute. Everyone from our toy train companies to the U.S. military runs into the same issue. I've seen ships "borrow" parts from the ship berthed next to them so they can get underway because the lead time for getting a circuit board made can be in years and they can't wait that long.
The next criteria is...who are they going to get to make it? If the person presently making them retires, they have to possibly hire/train another person, takes time/money.
I can't find a battery for my 1965 Pentax, do I stop taking photos or do I buy a newer camera and continue to enjoy my hobby, the choice is ours.
There's always a work-a-round.
Yes, parts obsolescence is always an issue in electronics. But, as you said, there are work-arounds. As it is, Lionel is going to continue to make TMCC boards for Atlas and 3rd Rail. (And this won't happen by itself--somebody is going to be managing it.)
VidKidz posted:Lionel has several folks on this board. There is no reason why someone from Lionel cannot step in and provide an official update with what's going on and what the plans are so that their customers can plan accordingly.
Well...
As has been pointed out about a half a dozens times now in this thread and a few others, the ultimate decision-makers on this issue are not necessarily the same Lionel folks who frequent the board.
As evidenced by this thread people are very passionate about this topic and many have indicated they have written/are planning to write to Lionel expressing their opinions and asking for additional information on future plans. Presumably the word is getting back to them.
This news is a few days old. Maybe we can give them more than a few days to share their plans?
Switching to 2 rail, I hadn't come across the news.
But at York, I had a very nice little used 3rd Rail N&W 4-8-2 "Water Buffalo" for sale. Pre TMCC.
I had a few potential buyers. The first question was always does it have TMCC. I had a low price reflecting that it still had the QSI, and thinking that anyone that wanted to upgrade could do it.
Had it been me and expecting to convert, I would have passed on it. The pressure of coming up with an upgrade so quickly would have killed the purchase for me.
I think the numbers might justify the decision. However, there is a greater reason to keep the ERR products available. It doesn't show up in the profit numbers but does reside in the mind set of potential Lionel buyers. I also hate to see Gunrunner John's products be affected. Buyers of his products have only scratched the surface of their usefulness.
Obviously the decision was not made by someone with the competence to understand all the implications for Lionel.
I refrain from more detailed comment about what I think of this latest piece of corporate conduct except to say that I have written to Lionel saying, among other points, that I think cutting out aftermarket TMCC repair/upgrade businesses is a decision I can’t understand or live with. GRJ and AlexM contribute a lot more to this hobby, let alone this Forum, than Lionel appear to recognize; they as much as anyone else deserve better than this.
BTW, TMCC upgrades are not a big thing for me but all the other uses to which ERR components have been for years. Even so, I am looking at a very nice brass 3rd Rail Pennsy T1 that I never got around to converting from QSI to TMCC and Lionel’s decision has probably wiped out much of its resale value. So much for thanking the likes of you and me for Lionel’s great 2017
Well, add me to the list enthusiasts who voiced their concern over this. I just sent Lionel an email expressing my extreme displeasure over this situation.
Nick
Keith L posted:...... As it is, Lionel is going to continue to make TMCC boards for Atlas and 3rd Rail. (And this won't happen by itself--somebody is going to be managing it.)
Yes, someone's going to keep making the TMCC boards for Lionel. TMCC/ERR cruise/RailSounds is not going away. The boards will continue to be produced, so there's no need to talk about finding someone else to make them. But why the decision to stop selling them to individuals?
ncdave posted:Just thought I would add my two cents to this discussion.
While I am concerned about the ability to get repairs done to the TMCC and Legacy engines in my small roster it occurred to me that we as Lionel customers, both new and used, are investing in a 20 year old technology. We are counting on Lionel to support that technology in the future no matter the cost or availability of the parts to repair that technology. No manufacture does that in today’s world. New technologies are developed and applied and old ones, no matter how successful, are discarded. That, unfortunately, is the world we live in.
I suspect that Lionel was faced with the difficult choice here because of manufacturing costs. The cost of parts and the difficulty of getting these boards built in a quantity to justify a run by the manufacturer has become prohibitive. So I’m guessing that the boards on hand or in the pipe line are being used to satisfy the contracts they have with Atlas and Third Rail. And after they are used up the announcement will come that Legacy will be available to them. That leaves out the DIY hobbyist for now.
We can complain to Lionel but I’m afraid the bottom line and the use of old technology has ended the run of ERR.
Again just my two cents.
Dave
P. S. DCS is not immune to this either. It’s aging too.
That is true, but you also have to keep in mind the kind of market we live in with these trains. We are running on three rail AC and continue to, despite the fact that trains now are DC can motors, because they recognize there is a huge installed base out there running older trains in conventional mode, and they want to merge old and new as an example. The other related factor is that a lot of people don't just run the newest and greatest items, this isn't the same as cell phones, the cost of the product means that people can't easily up and throw away 'old technology' and buy new, despite what the marketing people would want. Bit different than with tv sets where it literally doesn't pay to fix them, they last a long time then by then you want new features.
The problem here is that Lionel wants to maintain TMCC (or seems to want to) as proprietary technology, maintaining total control over it, while now basically telling consumers if you want to upgrade or replace a broken board, you are out of luck. If they truly don't want to produce this any more, if for example they are going to offer legacy boards to Atlas and Third rail (and possibly consumer kits), keep that as proprietary and allow third party firms the ability to build TMCC based components for the consumer. Again, that may seem to work against their goals, but this is a part of the market that isn't going to buy more legacy or lionchief + engines if they can't upgrade to TMCC, those people will buy or not whether TMCC is around or not. The parallel I will use is the auto industry, for a certain period of time some parts are dealer only, you can't get third market parts, but with older cars you can get pretty much anything in the third market, the manufacturer doesn't need to keep those parts on hand or their suppliers make them, and another company makes money out of it.
It will be interesting to see what Lionel has plans, I hope that they do have plans other than basically making TMCC disappear, whether it is third party firms making boards and kits, or offering users a legacy upgrade path similar to what ERR did......but that will come out in the end. Declaring technology as 'dead' at times does work, but that is in a market where old technology truly dies, like old cell phones or computers and the like.
I'm an old school conventional operator but I have a few locomotives that I've been on the fence with to upgrade to TMCC so this is a blessing in disguise. I do, however, feel bad for those who do this as a business. Perhaps things will work out in the end.
Sounds like to could morph into some "Black Market" sales to me.......Lol
!
Their decision only reinforces and speeds up my transition to rc control. It's basically the same expense.
1965 Pentax battery...
What battery # is it...just curious.
cjack posted:1965 Pentax battery...
What battery # is it...just curious.
E387S, the one with the plastic ring around the battery. I think I found one on Ebay once, but the shipping was HIGH!
I bought it from a fellow train buddy of mine, he bought the camera while stationed in Guam in 1965. Took good photos, uses threaded lenses.
breezinup posted:Keith L posted:...... As it is, Lionel is going to continue to make TMCC boards for Atlas and 3rd Rail. (And this won't happen by itself--somebody is going to be managing it.)
Yes, someone's going to keep making the TMCC boards for Lionel. TMCC/ERR cruise/RailSounds is not going away. The boards will continue to be produced, so there's no need to talk about finding someone else to make them. But why the decision to stop selling them to individuals?
I been saying that in my post. Thanks for clarifying it again. Seems this part is ignored. The parts and boards are there and available. They are still going to be assembled, but sold only to Atlas and 3rd Rail, why cut the individual hobbyist out and add more to the profit?
Just to throw some fuel on the fire, if I was supporting two technologies, TMCC and Legacy, and was looking to reduce costs and increase profits, I would eliminate the TMCC/ERR products and begin selling Legacy products to the public.by eliminating the requirement to trade-in a non-functioning Legacy board to get a new board.
Jan
I will miss the ability to have cruise installed on older TMCC non Odyssey/Legacy engines. Conventional was ok but after going cruise I was hooked. I now have no reason to buy older locos for upgrades.
If you happen to have Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram accounts also use those to let Lionel how you feel about their ERR decision by posting your concern and dissatisfaction there. Here are the links:
https://twitter.com/Lionel_Trains
https://www.instagram.com/lionel_trains/
https://www.facebook.com/LionelModelTrains
And in addition to emailing Howard Hitchcock and Chris Elrod , also send a copy of that email to:
Hey Everyone, Is it possible to upgrade a Lionel Postwar F3 with DCS Protosound 3.0 ?? The question sounds crazy to me but I've heard some doozies in my lifetime.
Jan posted:Just to throw some fuel on the fire, if I was supporting two technologies, TMCC and Legacy, and was looking to reduce costs and increase profits, I would eliminate the TMCC/ERR products and begin selling Legacy products to the public.by eliminating the requirement to trade-in a non-functioning Legacy board to get a new board.
Jan
Lionel made that possible a few weeks ago. Actually you have been able to buy first generation modular Legacy boards for quite a few years now. A friend has converted dozens of engines of all types including 3rd Rail and MTH to Legacy.
Only recently has Lionel offered a few Legacy Railsounds boards for sale without exchange.
To do this you will need a some experience with electronics. There are no manuals. You will need tools to make your own harnesses. No screws terminals. Your only guide is being able to read the terminal markings printed in 2 point type on the PC boards.
The only way this will work is if Lionel creates user friendly boards and instructions so you don't need to be a PhD EE to install it.
Pete
marker posted:Switching to 2 rail, I hadn't come across the news.
But at York, I had a very nice little used 3rd Rail N&W 4-8-2 "Water Buffalo" for sale. Pre TMCC.
I had a few potential buyers. The first question was always does it have TMCC. I had a low price reflecting that it still had the QSI, and thinking that anyone that wanted to upgrade could do it.
Had it been me and expecting to convert, I would have passed on it. The pressure of coming up with an upgrade so quickly would have killed the purchase for me.
I think the numbers might justify the decision. However, there is a greater reason to keep the ERR products available. It doesn't show up in the profit numbers but does reside in the mind set of potential Lionel buyers. I also hate to see Gunrunner John's products be affected. Buyers of his products have only scratched the surface of their usefulness.
Obviously the decision was not made by someone with the competence to understand all the implications for Lionel.
You wouldn't by chance still have that Water Buffalo for sale would you?
marshelangelo posted:Hey Everyone, Is it possible to upgrade a Lionel Postwar F3 with DCS Protosound 3.0 ?? The question sounds crazy to me but I've heard some doozies in my lifetime.
Only if you replace the Pullmors with can motors. Best if you buy a Williams repro and swap shells.
Pete
I think the title of this thread pretty well sums it up. " THE DEATH OF THE TMCC UPGRADE" After reading the many posts on this thread I walked into my train room and immediately got the same feeling I get when walking into a funeral home. All I could do was look at the various locomotives that I had intended to upgrade over the next several years. I had no desire to run my trains. Just look and wonder what might have been.
Tom
Dan Fender posted:...I did look at the BlueRail Trains website and their system looks interesting. At this time, it isn't capable of controlling AC motored engines (unless they or someone else is working on some sort of inverter circuit). It also would also render any MTH PS1 engines it is installed into becoming silent -unless someone has or is working to figure out if there is a surgical work around on those old MTH boards that allows one to keep audio functionality while bypassing the DCRU circuitry.
A simple approach to the latter would seemingly be to disconnect the motor from the DCRU and connect it to the BlueRail unit. But that assumes the lack of a motor load on the DCRU wouldn't cause problems with the rest of the PS1 circuitry, which I suspect it would.
The old Lionel "Pullmor" motors aren't AC motors. They're universal motors and will run on DC (also more quietly). The magnetic field is generated by running the track voltage through a field coil, the phase (polarity) of which is changed when the reverse unit is triggered. If you isolate the motor armature from the chassis, you can feed DC into it through a rectifier (or control board). The field coil can be fed pure DC through a bridge rectifier since the polarity won't be changing (the board reverses the armature). I haven't done that for years, so I don't recall how hot the field got if at all and I can't remember the current draw of the motors.
And you wonder why the hobby is shrinking.
Flyer guys used to run on DC quite a bit; there are articles out there about how to do it. I intend to look into them.
Tom Densel posted:I think the title of this thread pretty well sums it up. " THE DEATH OF THE TMCC UPGRADE" After reading the many posts on this thread I walked into my train room and immediately got the same feeling I get when walking into a funeral home. All I could do was look at the various locomotives that I had intended to upgrade over the next several years. I had no desire to run my trains. Just look and wonder what might have been.
Tom
Hi Tom
Perfectly stated !
I upgrade engines for customers on a weekly basis , so I’ve never had the chance to upgrade my own engines. I guess I waited to long, so the 4 that I wanted to upgrade fall into the title of this thread ( The Death of the TMCC upgrade ) what a shame ! So many of my customers are in the same boat, a bunch of engines now go to the Funeral home. So damaging to this hobby.
Alex
Re: "The death of TMCC".
I guess in a psychological sense I am better positioned than most since I have aged out and crippled out anyway. My locomotives are mostly steam and early diesel up through the early 1950s. Upon this latest TMCC news the units now become much like my collection of Southern, N&W and Clinchfield books....... shelf queens! Of course my two sons who say they want the trains may have a very different view.
For the sake of the Hobby i hope a product source solution emerges for Alex, Gunrunner John and others who upgrade and convert engines for the herd.
Has anyone contacted Atlas or better yet Scott at third rail and ask them what does this hold for the future of their products. In other words maybe they know a little bit more because it will be necessary for them to know what the future holds for their products. I mean I won't buy a third rail or Atlas local knowing that if something goes wrong it can't be repaired.
Well, guys, there is also MTH PS 3.0, and I know as we have guys in our club that are Lionel Purists this won set well. This is another option even for 3rd rail, Atlas, and any other manufacturers.
It's not like all trains will stop, just because Lionel has thrown a Monkey Wrench into the mix....!.................Just Sayin
There is another manufacturer that made waves years ago. He may have not made the same business decision. A public relations nightmare? One knows Baseball never recovered from the strike. I think the " company" is under estimating their situation. Good Luck to them if this policy is not reversed. Next year- best year in 10 years- may be the worst.
Like john Lennon said, it's faster going down then going up.
After reading nine pages of comments about the death of the TMCC upgrades I thought I would try to list the facts, as I understand them, and come up with some questions for Lionel.
1. Lionel stopped supplying ERR Company with boards.
2. There is/was a limited supply of boards on hand at ERR.
3. The gentleman that runs ERR is retirering. Congratulations!
4. Profit, although small, was made during the last year.
5. Whats left of the ERR company will move to NC.
6. Lionel will continue to supply Atlas and 3rd Rail with ERR/TMCC boards.
So based on those facts we can conclude that Lionel must have enough ERR/TMCC upgrade boards and parts on hand or in the pipeline to supply Atlas and 3rd Rail to meet their contact obligations. But not enough to supply ERR for sale to the O gauge community.
So that begs the following questions. In no particular order.
1. Will Lionel support TMCC with parts and boards in the future?
2. Will there be a Legacy, LionChief+, Bluetooth upgrade path in the future if TMCC is phased out?
3. Is TMCC being phased out? Or just the upgrade path?
4. Did You, Lionel, realize how this would affect your installed base of customers who purchased your product both new and used over the last 20 years?
5. Is there the possibility of supplying independent repair shops with ERR boards so that they can carry out repairs and upgrades?
6. Is the problem with the supplier of the ERR boards? Costs? Parts? Numbers?
I think nine pages of comments on this subject alone should get Lionels attention and get them to answer these questions and more here on the OGR Fourm. Let’s hope they do so soon!
Dave
Matt Makens posted:You miss the point, there are no hard numbers to go on so it’s all speculation but let’s say the office costs 3k a month, employees John and Ken another 6k each so you’ve got 15k a month that’s 180k a year. Let’s add 10% for other costs that’s 2k and 30% for inventory that’s 54k 254k a year now they made 5k profit so let’s make it an even 260k in revenue. So let’s say atlas and 3rd Rail account for 30% each of the sales and consumers account for 40%. Lionel Has 60% of that business locked up so your left with 40% of 260k That’s 104k. Now you’re gonna have to buy boards from Lionel, you could expect to pay 50% of retail and so you have $52,000 in cost just for inventory, that leaves you the other $52,000 a year to pay rent, phone, internet, insurance, office supplies, electricity, and of course wages. So you tell me, where’s the money at?
the word you used was speculation...that has no bearing in the current position. Lionel sells parts for repair. Lionel is already renting space.
They do sell parts? Why? Because. They would miff people and their sales would plummet.So, stock err boards or get another option...
E-UNIT-79 posted:Has anyone contacted Atlas or better yet Scott at third rail and ask them what does this hold for the future of their products. In other words maybe they know a little bit more because it will be necessary for them to know what the future holds for their products. I mean I won't buy a third rail or Atlas local knowing that if something goes wrong it can't be repaired.
That whole thing about the second shoe dropping.... Might be interesting here.
I'm NOT suggesting I know such will take place (I do not!), but I wouldn't be surprised if that is a follow up to this at some point down the line. At the time of Friday's announcement it was not the case, but who knows.
If the parts obsolescence thing does end up killing the feasibility of producing boards entirely at some point, I don't see Lionel re-designing the board just to supply to third parties.
Anything they may or may not know I would consider between them and Lionel at this point (may even be in their contract - none of us know, aside from one or 2 who may work for one of those companies directly, might). IF there is a risk down the road, I could see them wanting time to figure out what to do before a panic ensues the way it has here for the upgrades.
Well, here is just another reason why three rail O scale will continue to shrink. I biggest reason I bailed on three almost four years ago were due to issues with both major control systems:
I feel sorry for you modelers / operators who have lost yet another supplier to try to standardize on a control system, and keep what you have already purchased running in the event of an electronic failure. It sucks. Hopefully somebody can step in and fill the void. If not, there is always HO
In the meantime, us users of DCC continue to thrive. Multiple suppliers of excellent sound decoders, that can be shoved into anything we desire to put it into. I have a failed board in one of my Broadway Limited UP TTT 6/7 2-10-2 locomotives. I'm not stuck with the BLI DCC board for a replacement, I can get a replacement from ESU, Soundtrax, or TCS, which have some great products. It will fit just fine, and the wiring is pretty easy to sort out. Not sure yet which way I am going to go, but the first step is to take it apart and try to figure out why it failed in the first place. Once I fix the reason for the failure, assuming it was not board failure (which happens), I'll decide on which way to go. At least I have options.
I'm still running non-sound locomotives that I dumped non-sound decoders into 22 years ago. They still run great, and never had a failure. Same story there, if they ever give up the ghost, plenty of options available, and I can upgrade them to sound if I so desire. And I can pick them up and run them on any other DCC controlled railroad. Rest assured, the control system on the foreign railroad will be able to find it.
Is DCC the best solution? For me, yes, but there are other exciting prospects on the horizon that will eventually render DCC obsolete. And when those do eventually take hold (dead rail anybody?), hopefully a control system standard will be developed by the NMRA for its replacement.
Regards,
GNNPNUT
gnnpnut posted:Well, here is just another reason why three rail O scale will continue to shrink. I biggest reason I bailed on three almost four years ago were due to issues with both major control systems:
- Lionel TMCC / Legacy, and all of the associated upgrade options over the years, TAS, ERR, and Digital Dynamics. The signal transmission method is flawed, and no amount of ground plane, the "healing hand of health", and replacement boards will ever make it better.
- MTH DCS. I don't even know where to start with all of the issues I've encountered with this system over the 11 plus years that it was my displeasure to be associated with it.
I feel sorry for you modelers / operators who have lost yet another supplier to try to standardize on a control system, and keep what you have already purchased running in the event of an electronic failure. It sucks. Hopefully somebody can step in and fill the void. If not, there is always HO
In the meantime, us users of DCC continue to thrive. Multiple suppliers of excellent sound decoders, that can be shoved into anything we desire to put it into. I have a failed board in one of my Broadway Limited UP TTT 6/7 2-10-2 locomotives. I'm not stuck with the BLI DCC board for a replacement, I can get a replacement from ESU, Soundtrax, or TCS, which have some great products. It will fit just fine, and the wiring is pretty easy to sort out. Not sure yet which way I am going to go, but the first step is to take it apart and try to figure out why it failed in the first place. Once I fix the reason for the failure, assuming it was not board failure (which happens), I'll decide on which way to go. At least I have options.
I'm still running non-sound locomotives that I dumped non-sound decoders into 22 years ago. They still run great, and never had a failure. Same story there, if they ever give up the ghost, plenty of options available, and I can upgrade them to sound if I so desire. And I can pick them up and run them on any other DCC controlled railroad. Rest assured, the control system on the foreign railroad will be able to find it.
Is DCC the best solution? For me, yes, but there are other exciting prospects on the horizon that will eventually render DCC obsolete. And when those do eventually take hold (dead rail anybody?), hopefully a control system standard will be developed by the NMRA for its replacement.
Regards,I assume your talking about ho?
i assume you are taking about ho? Lol, the transients produced at a amp and 18 v or more....a Little tough to compare board reliability...to dc...nada current. A much hasher environment on the o side.
ogaugeguy posted:If you happen to have Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram accounts also use those to let Lionel how you feel about their ERR decision by posting your concern and dissatisfaction there. Here are the links:
https://twitter.com/Lionel_Trains
https://www.instagram.com/lionel_trains/
https://www.facebook.com/LionelModelTrains
And in addition to emailing Howard Hitchcock and Chris Elrod , also send a copy of that email to:
time to start posting on my massive YouTube site...
shawn posted:gnnpnut posted:Well, here is just another reason why three rail O scale will continue to shrink. I biggest reason I bailed on three almost four years ago were due to issues with both major control systems:
- Lionel TMCC / Legacy, and all of the associated upgrade options over the years, TAS, ERR, and Digital Dynamics. The signal transmission method is flawed, and no amount of ground plane, the "healing hand of health", and replacement boards will ever make it better.
- MTH DCS. I don't even know where to start with all of the issues I've encountered with this system over the 11 plus years that it was my displeasure to be associated with it.
I feel sorry for you modelers / operators who have lost yet another supplier to try to standardize on a control system, and keep what you have already purchased running in the event of an electronic failure. It sucks. Hopefully somebody can step in and fill the void. If not, there is always HO
In the meantime, us users of DCC continue to thrive. Multiple suppliers of excellent sound decoders, that can be shoved into anything we desire to put it into. I have a failed board in one of my Broadway Limited UP TTT 6/7 2-10-2 locomotives. I'm not stuck with the BLI DCC board for a replacement, I can get a replacement from ESU, Soundtrax, or TCS, which have some great products. It will fit just fine, and the wiring is pretty easy to sort out. Not sure yet which way I am going to go, but the first step is to take it apart and try to figure out why it failed in the first place. Once I fix the reason for the failure, assuming it was not board failure (which happens), I'll decide on which way to go. At least I have options.
I'm still running non-sound locomotives that I dumped non-sound decoders into 22 years ago. They still run great, and never had a failure. Same story there, if they ever give up the ghost, plenty of options available, and I can upgrade them to sound if I so desire. And I can pick them up and run them on any other DCC controlled railroad. Rest assured, the control system on the foreign railroad will be able to find it.
Is DCC the best solution? For me, yes, but there are other exciting prospects on the horizon that will eventually render DCC obsolete. And when those do eventually take hold (dead rail anybody?), hopefully a control system standard will be developed by the NMRA for its replacement.
Regards,I assume your talking about ho?
i assume you are taking about ho? Lol, the transients produced at a amp and 18 v or more....a Lille tough to compare board reliability...to dc...nada current
Funny how two rail O scalers, and G scalers manage to survive with DCC. NCE had a four amp board available for about 20 years now, and so did Digitrax. Before O scale sound boards became available, people just piggybacked an HO Soundtrax board with an NCE or Digitrax board, and they had a great running combination.
TMCC / Legacy / DCS boards being engineered for the higher voltage and current required because of lack of options is simply a myth perpetrated by one of the control system manufacturers. It had everything to do with making the control system proprietary.
I had the pleasure about one year ago to operate on Jim Eudaly's wonderful C&O O scale railroad, which is using NCE's DCC system, complete with radio thottles, and every one of his steam locomotives (and diesels) is equipped with DCC sound. Wonder how he manages to have reliability with DCC. Not a Purple or Orange electronics item anywhere on that railroad. It is also a huge railroad. Jim is a master modeler, and scratchbuilt or heavily modified many of his locomotives.
And yes, in my case, I am talking about HO.
GNNPNUT
Norton posted:Jan posted:Just to throw some fuel on the fire, if I was supporting two technologies, TMCC and Legacy, and was looking to reduce costs and increase profits, I would eliminate the TMCC/ERR products and begin selling Legacy products to the public.by eliminating the requirement to trade-in a non-functioning Legacy board to get a new board.
Jan
Lionel made that possible a few weeks ago. Actually you have been able to buy first generation modular Legacy boards for quite a few years now. A friend has converted dozens of engines of all types including 3rd Rail and MTH to Legacy.
Only recently has Lionel offered a few Legacy Railsounds boards for sale without exchange.
To do this you will need a some experience with electronics. There are no manuals. You will need tools to make your own harnesses. No screws terminals. Your only guide is being able to read the terminal markings printed in 2 point type on the PC boards.
The only way this will work is if Lionel creates user friendly boards and instructions so you don't need to be a PhD EE to install it.
Pete
Just a schematic would be super.
"Lionel TMCC / Legacy, and all of the associated upgrade options over the years, TAS, ERR, and Digital Dynamics. The signal transmission method is flawed, and no amount of ground plane, the "healing hand of health", and replacement boards will ever make it better."
"MTH DCS. I don't even know where to start with all of the issues I've encountered with this system over the 11 plus years that it was my displeasure to be associated with it. "
And you didn't include the flawed firmware in the QSI boards that MTH used in their Proto-1 engines. Death rattles that resist fixing with the chip reset kit. The ElectricRR boards were a salvation for these. While I haven't found a Lionel ground plane issue I can't fix (yet), the DCS signal issues on a modular layout have cost me and my club's members many many man years trying to correct. Signal problems morph into new failure symptoms when additional engines roll out onto the loop. My experience is frequently "Check Track" even on a simple test loop at home. Sorry for the rant, but the demise of ElectricRR has closed the door on my intent to convert every loco I like to run to a signal system that works consistently for me (TMCC) and I am most disappointed.
I do tons of DCC installs and sound upgrades and if if you guys want bullet prof control, run DCC.
Thanks for the update Pete. I thought that there was that possibility in the many, many posts in these threads.
Perhaps Lionel is getting ready to market consumer friendly Legacy upgrades.
Jan
Folks, one BIG unknown in this development is the length and terms of the contracts Lionel has for supplying Atlas and 3rd Rail with TMCC boards. It might be considerably shorter than we might be speculating. Another possibility might be Lionel working to license LionChief Plus technology to those companies. No one knows except those three companies.
I can't even imagine 3rd Rail or Atlas being happy with LC+ functionality, but maybe that's just me. I'm sure many of their customers would not be!
What is to stop Atlas or 3rd Rail from brokering a deal with MTH for ProtoSound 3 electronics? Then again, they could offer conventional only locomotives for the 3-rail crowd like they do with their Trainman models for 2-railers.
My two cents. Email to Lionel:
I have bought Lionel products since I started train collecting at 11 years old. I am now 61 and have purchased several TMCC engines and ERR upgrade kits. To discontinue making available to me all the products ERR has is a huge disappointment to me and the train industry. Lionel has in the past always been a leader in the industry. I have purchased many train sets with the new blue tooth technology to run for the kids club. Even though I like this technology for the young children, we meet by the thousands, at the Home & Garden Show, this technology does nothing for my personal collection and command control of my home layout. I have several engines that need upgraded and with limited funds it can not be done all at once. I counted on ERR to provide these components, especially when I retire in a few years. I will no longer purchase Lionel trains for the club or personal use in the future. MTH provides PS3 upgrades at a fraction of the cost of upgrading to Cruise Command and sound. Their products are well made and reasonably priced for O scale. I will join their club and purchase all my products from them in the future. YOU have made this decision for me.
catnap posted:What is to stop Atlas or 3rd Rail from brokering a deal with MTH for ProtoSound 3 electronics? Then again, they could offer conventional only locomotives for the 3-rail crowd like they do with their Trainman models for 2-railers.
To date, MTH has been adamant about not sharing any of their technology with anyone. I think the chances of MTH supplying PS3 to Atlas and 3rd Rail approach zero.
Keith L posted:catnap posted:What is to stop Atlas or 3rd Rail from brokering a deal with MTH for ProtoSound 3 electronics? Then again, they could offer conventional only locomotives for the 3-rail crowd like they do with their Trainman models for 2-railers.
To date, MTH has been adamant about not sharing any of their technology with anyone. I think the chances of MTH supplying PS3 to Atlas and 3rd Rail approach zero.
But when was the last time MTH was presented with that question? IIRC it was many years ago (PS2 rollout) and obviously the market dynamic can be considered much different with fewer companies and arguably smaller customer bases. It's also possible that MTH's current business relationship w/ Lionel (Lionel Corporation Tinplate) might influence their current decision.
Lionel did a Lucy and they have not started the EXPLAINATION.
Very simple we are a small market in the O gauge commuinty. However you turn your back on us we will turn our back to you.
This act alone will kill the York event for those of us that upgrade the old trains. I would like to see the sale numbers before Lionel announcment and what the numbers where after the announcment.
I did not leave a comment on the Facebook page about ERR, however I did email them.
I am madder than a wet hen.
PRR Joe posted:My two cents. Email to Lionel:
I have bought Lionel products since I started train collecting at 11 years old. I am now 61 and have purchased several TMCC engines and ERR upgrade kits. To discontinue making available to me all the products ERR has is a huge disappointment to me and the train industry. Lionel has in the past always been a leader in the industry. I have purchased many train sets with the new blue tooth technology to run for the kids club. Even though I like this technology for the young children, we meet by the thousands, at the Home & Garden Show, this technology does nothing for my personal collection and command control of my home layout. I have several engines that need upgraded and with limited funds it can not be done all at once. I counted on ERR to provide these components, especially when I retire in a few years. I will no longer purchase Lionel trains for the club or personal use in the future. MTH provides PS3 upgrades at a fraction of the cost of upgrading to Cruise Command and sound. Their products are well made and reasonably priced for O scale. I will join their club and purchase all my products from them in the future. YOU have made this decision for me.
I'm not familiar at all with PS but I went to there site and found the PS3 upgrade priced at $199.95. That's a fraction of the cost of ERR set up??? Last I looked to get cruise commander and rail sounds it was $209.90. $10 difference is a fraction of the cost? Also what does it cost to take a non ps engine to ps-3 is it the $199.95 as I saw a note saying if your upgrading from PS-2 order this kit or that kit depending if you had pandagraghs or not.
Oh I used the cost for steam on tmcc as it was $5 more so if you were doing a Diesel it would only be $5 more. Now before you get all upset I'm asking for info, as if What I found is correct I can guarantee you Lionel already know the difference in price.
Now them ending ERR upgrade is definitely a big disappointment, But personally I feel all the Emails and letters and all will probably go right into the trash. I have tried contacting them a few times in the past and never once heard a word back from them. When it comes to how they decide to do business they could care less about what you or I or anyone else has to say. If you really want to get there attention, my guess would be to get something like the TCA to stick up for us on this and see if something can't be worked out for the best of the hobby. My bet right now is if everyone who has commented on this subject actually sent them a email they may get about 150 - 175 emails. To them that isn't anything.
I feel your fighting a losing battle ( not just you but everyone in here stating there going to write Lionel or give up on Lionel trains. ) Now you can also say it doesn't matter to me really as I mainly run conventional, but your wrong. I feel this is a big lost to the hobby, but it's something we can only hope will bring a better upgrade item than what we have now. As stated many times , what they have now work for us but is obsolete and to upgrade that system would take a lot. The technology is old and some of the components are being phased out as they are obsolete in today's technology. I personally could use about five or six set ups but I do not have the money to spare for one right now to be honest with you, with all that's going on in my life. My only hope that the legacy powermaster are not getting deleted also. I won't have sound but I can have remote control to a degree anyway.
Also to me Lionel started going down hill when they did away with conventional engines and sets and went to there lionchief and lionchief+ . I don't really like them as the most I think it is you can run on one controller is four. My tmcc and legacy controllers can handle 98 I think it is. Get what a step in reverse for the consumer. To me to many have just gone along with a reverse in technology. it maybe actually more technical but for the consumer it's actually less.
nvocc5 posted:Lionel did a Lucy and they have not started the EXPLAINATION.
Very simple we are a small market in the O gauge commuinty. However you turn your back on us we will turn our back to you.
This act alone will kill the York event for those of us that upgrade the old trains. I would like to see the sale numbers before Lionel announcment and what the numbers where after the announcment.
I did not leave a comment on the Facebook page about ERR, however I did email them.
I am madder than a wet hen.
I'm still amazed at the decision to not implement via some method of running of the whole digital product line by their supposed "high" end remote! Now, this wonderful situation arises. This is the straw that breaks the camels back. I will wait one more week for a update. I'm then out never to return!
Oh, I'll still buy trains - only smaller ones...save room in the closets...the wife will be in her glory..
My personal thoughts.
1) The announcement of the end of ERR should have come as a official written press release. Posted on Lionel website etc.
2) ‘If’ there is a plan to move on to some other form of upgrade path (Legacy or Bluetooth etc.) nothing should have been announced about ERR until the alternative plan was in place.
3) Unwittingly it appears Lionel have cast doubt on their perceived commitment to the whole TMCC/Legacy system.
4) Lionel’s watch word was “No train left behind” what so great is we can run a 1930’s vintage train next to the latest locomotive using the same remote.
5) Ken, congratulations on your retirement and thank you for all your help.
Nick
To add Reply #374
As long as the the Bachmann / Williams Reverse units are still available, all is well.
1998 called and it wants its Proprietary operating system back.
I wonder how long this " bad taste" will linger? 
Will it be as bitter as MTH had when MTH abandoned their PS1/QSI platform for Ps2?
I think it is now time for us all to take a deep breath and wait for Lionel's definitive answer on what is happening to tmcc/ERR.
What is their long term goal, will there be a way to upgrade engines with tmcc, legacy, blue tooth or something more advanced.
Lionel could have handled this announcement better IMO. It seems Lionel has no protocol in place for situations as this and the passenger car debacle.
Dave
prrhorseshoecurve posted:I wonder how long this " bad taste" will linger?
Well, If your thinking it! There are many others with you. PS1 a is not even close,to this scenario. Ps1 was not a remote system. I think if "M" stopped selling upgrades that allowed updating everything to run under one roof. That would be in line with Lionel decision. I'm beginning to realize my passion and dedication for Lionel trains is due to former Management....Joshua Lionel and Richard Kughn! Plus, the cereal guys going to the grave yard and performing a resurrection.
I mean why have a demo table without some sort of visual and audible presentation. (At least none occurred when I was floating around the orange hall. One on one - that's ok. But, they want more public from the outside? For what? To watch 3 trains going around a circle. To see static trains on the wall? A little human animation might help.
As several have pointed out, in 2000-2002, MTH did then exactly what Lionel has done now. That is, they announced there would be no PS1 upgrades when PS2 was being developed. They then, as Lionel will no doubt do now, rethought that strategy when howls of protest occurred. In other words, MTH did then what Lionel has done now, announce an unpopular and unsustainable policy that will have to be reversed in some fashion. Don't try to rewrite history . Particularly since in this case, it is still being written.
"Yes, advance right to MTH!"
Nah. Not an option.
There are a couple of parallels in other product markets. A brand of printer called ALPs they were manufactured by the same company that made Alpine auto stereos. When Alps decided to exit the printer business they gave people a three year warning. Some of you may be familiar with the Alps printer they are the printer that decal makers use. Rather than a liquid ink they use a ribbon coated with colored wax that is completely waterproof. When loaded with blank decal paper you can print water slide decals. Chances are if you have ever had custom decals made this is the machine they were made on. The Alps printers have a cult following (I'm one) and though not manufactured in several years the ink is still available through a company in Japan called Elephant Rocket who also repairs and sells refurbished printers. Alps was simply practicing good public relations and I admire them very much. When Nikon decided to exit the film scanner business I received a letter stating that after a certain date they would no longer repair their scanners and it was enough warning that people who's livelihood depended on the scanner could purchase back up units and find shops that bought up dead scanners as a parts source and continue to service and keep these now rare machines working. Minolta (SONY) was not so thoughtful of those who owned their professional scanners. Sony bought Minolta and would refer scanner owners to a company called Precision Camera repair who people shipped their scanners to and then received a letter from PCR stating they no longer had the parts to repair the scanner. They did this to me and then shipped the scanner back very poorly packaged and the face plate was knocked off. I pitched a fit screamed and cursed and had a lawyer send a nasty letter. They called me a few days later and asked me to return the scanner which they promptly repaired to fully working condition. Seems they did have some parts in the warehouse after all.
Lionel could make me happy and I am sure many other customers if instead of cutting the tap off with nearly zero warning they would give a more reasonable cut off date say one year from now. I have been adding TMCC to many of my old locos, I started a year ago and have done about 20 and have another 35 or 40 that I would like to convert. I placed an order with ERR Sunday night immediately after reading the bad news here and pray they will fill it.
Lionel if you are lurking out there I promise if you delay the shut down of ERR or perhaps license the folks at B.G. Technologies Inc or some other firm to make the ERR products, even if for a limited but more reasonable time, I will continue to purchase Lionel products even an occasional high end loco. However if you snatch the rug out from under us faithful Lionel devotees I will never again purchase another Lionel product. John Acton
I'd like to thank Derek for starting this thread and the majority of posters for some very good and civil discussions. We haven't had a thread go to 10 pages this quick in a long time which I believe should let Lionel how we feel about this matter.
Certainly there are some strong feelings about ERR upgrades becoming unavailable to us. Ken, Jon, and the entire ERR team are a great bunch and I wish them the best. The folks from Lionel that engage us here on the forum are also a pretty good group that do their best to keep us in the know of all things Lionel.
I hope that the correspondence from this group to Lionel was polite and firm. Hopefully we can change some minds and we'll all be happy when the dust clears without any collateral damage. I'm sure the folks that made this decision are probably not exactly thrilled by the reaction but part of business is at least listening to your customers, good, bad, and ugly.
We can certainly continue to discuss this here and if you would like to let Lionel how you feel write a polite letter or email if you haven't already. Perhaps we should all take a breath now and see if we get a response from Lionel in the coming weeks. While I don't expect something immediately, I do think they will acknowledge the concerns. I hope the folks at Lionel take this response as support of a product that we all enjoy and hope for it's future.
This will most likely be the last I will post on this subject unless something new comes out. I'd like to thank OGR for letting this thread to continue as it really does impact a great deal of the folks on this forum. I'd like to thanks Lionel for hopefully at minimal listening to our concerns. Mainly I'd like to thank the forum itself for what is for the most part a civil discussion on a hot topic.
10 pages...who would of ever thunk it?
MartyE posted:.
I'd like to thank OGR for letting this thread to continue as it really does impact a great deal of the folks on this forum. I'd like to thanks Lionel for hopefully at minimal listening to our concerns. Mainly I'd like to thank the forum itself for what is for the most part a civil discussion on a hot topic.
10 pages...who would of ever thunk it?
That part says a lot, on concerns on this subject, and the quality of posters who maybe angry, upset on this subject, yet stayed civil in their statements on this. Also OGR for letting us continue on this matter. Hopefully Lionel will listen and see the impact this decision has made on our Hobby.
We haven't had a thread go to 10 pages this quick in a long time which I believe should let Lionel how we feel about this matter.
10 pages...who would of ever thunk it?
A picture is worth 1,000 words.
Gerry
Bill,
As I see it you get a discount for being a MTH Club member on PS-3 upgrades. I stated I would join the club. There are also more features for what you pay for. Sound may not be as good but it is close enough for what I am looking for in an upgrade. Maybe a fraction was not the best wording. They are more difficult to upgrade but I have done several in the past.
Joe
gmorlitz posted:A picture is worth 1,000 words.
Gerry
lol, There's someone that inspires the hobby.
josef posted:MartyE posted:.
I'd like to thank OGR for letting this thread to continue as it really does impact a great deal of the folks on this forum. I'd like to thanks Lionel for hopefully at minimal listening to our concerns. Mainly I'd like to thank the forum itself for what is for the most part a civil discussion on a hot topic.
10 pages...who would of ever thunk it?
That part says a lot, on concerns on this subject, and the quality of posters who maybe angry, upset on this subject, yet stayed civil in their statements on this. Also OGR for letting us continue on this matter. Hopefully Lionel will listen and see the impact this decision has made on our Hobby.
yes, civility has it's merits. But, the best protest is to hit them in the pocket book. They only made 5000.00. Well, 10G lost on my purchases this coming year.
Just a dumb question here, but why not just raise the price of the ERR kits significantly, thereby excluding all but the most desirable saves of old equipment?
Just playing devils advocate and assuming Lionel’s intent is to back folks into a corner thereby forcing them to buy more new locomotives then their next logical step is to take away the license from Atlas and 3rd Rail. Whether it is now or when the license runs out or when the parts run out. They know that a large portion of the O Gauge enthusiasts who want Command Control want Locomotives that has their choice of Command Control system installed from the factory. Sure a few guys will go through the expense of ripping out DCS and installing TMCC or vice verse but by and large most O Gauge folks who aren’t strictly conventional either run one of the two systems or both. What better way to increase profits than to take Atlas and 3rd Rail out of the mix? I always say what do you think gives Lionel more profit: selling a locomotive even a $500 one or selling a board to Atlas/3rd Rail? Obviously they make more profit selling the locomotive. This is of course why MTH does not license their system.
Like I said I am just playing devils advocate here and looking at the situation through eyes that only care about increased profits in a shrinking scale.
However, I sincerely hope that my scenario above does not come to pass. I agree with the positive thoughts listed above and I think Lionel will come to their senses. Let’s hope it is sooner rather than later.
I think this will be a good test to see if Lionel listens or cares about their customers and address what has obviously hit a nerve with all of us. Time will tell I guess.
The announcement has been published on the Electric RR website. electricrr.com
MIKATT1 posted:The announcement has been published on the Electric RR website. electricrr.com
To Our Valued Customers:
Based on business decisions Lionel has decided to no longer support The Electric Railroad Company. We will officially be shutting down all sales of Electric RR related products on May 15th. We will fulfill all orders received up to May 15th while supplies last.
Mike Phillips, Vice President - Brand Marketing.
Not good, Lionel still hasn't gotten the message. Please keep the emails up.
There market just got smaller not 0 just lionels
This really sucks what happens to your 1500 steamengine boards go Bad and Lionel doesn’t support them. Now you have self queen. Don’t they understand that I can’t spend 1k a Engine everyday. H.O is looking better and better everyday. At least they have one system and you can put dcc in anything.
Gerry, thanks for a laugh, I needed one.
jojofry posted:Chris Lonero posted:jojofry posted:This really sucks what happens to your 1500 steamengine boards go Bad and Lionel doesn’t support them. Now you have self queen. Don’t they understand that I can’t spend 1k a Engine everyday. H.O is looking better and better everyday. At least they have one system and you can put dcc in anything.
MTH has some nice H.O!
To be honest I really can’t stand mth . There parts department sucks .There boards are weak imo they refuse to compete with Lionel and in H.O they lack the detail of most the other company’s.
they both have their issues.
Gary
My take after reading 10 pages.
Lionel made a business decision which they know reason for not us.
Almost everyone is upset. Some more some less.
Everyone seems to have the answer but how can you know an answer with out knowing the full equation of the problem. That is speculation.
I am always amazed at some people who are die hard in on camp. ( MTH, Lionel, DCC )
Crying seems to be the easy solution. It helps our own feelings but really? As has been stated many many times, IT IS NOT THE END OF THE WORLD. There could be a lot of different scenarios that play out or maybe nothing. Can we change to a smaller scale? Sure but some of us can NOT! Our hands are too shaky and our eyes are starting to fail. At the last York show my wife and I had an interesting conversation based on ONE question. Average age of people attending. We figure low to mid 60's. With this in mind and keeping on track with ERR, It makes me realize that some like myself have just returned to the hobby. Others are and have been in for the long haul. Some an afford new engines others can not. For me I would have to buy older new or used engines and possibly get them converted with ERR or some other system. Now with ERR going out I have to wonder as everyone else is -"What are my options?" OUR options are few or many based on each persons PERSONAL feelings. I believe like others that more options are out there or going to come. You can NOT have major train manufacturers installing a system that is going to be extinct in new engines and make sales. SOMEONE is going to step up and either change those systems to an existing one or a new one. Atlas and 3rd Rail can't live on history parts that may no longer be. They, as has been said, are in the same situation we are. Me? I look forward with hope and even some joy. Sure I am upset and sad about the past but it is the past. Just as WE get old so does technology hence the need for change. EVERYONE COMPLAINED WHEN PASSENGER SERVICE DIED with each individual railroad but how many support what is today? IF we support what comes it can be better and greater for everyone including most of all THE HOBBY. AS WE GET OLDER WE NEED TO SUPPORT THE HOBBY! We are like the museums and Preservationist for the FUTURE generations. Our job is to ride the rails and enjoy the ride as we continue to keep the hobby alive. AS for me I am having one GRAND ride because I CHOOSE TO!
CurtisH posted:My take after reading 10 pages.
Lionel made a business decision which they know reason for not us.
Almost everyone is upset. Some more some less.
Everyone seems to have the answer but how can you know an answer with out knowing the full equation of the problem. That is speculation.
I am always amazed at some people who are die hard in on camp. ( MTH, Lionel, DCC )
Crying seems to be the easy solution. It helps our own feelings but really? As has been stated many many times, IT IS NOT THE END OF THE WORLD. There could be a lot of different scenarios that play out or maybe nothing. Can we change to a smaller scale? Sure but some of us can NOT! Our hands are too shaky and our eyes are starting to fail. At the last York show my wife and I had an interesting conversation based on ONE question. Average age of people attending. We figure low to mid 60's. With this in mind and keeping on track with ERR, It makes me realize that some like myself have just returned to the hobby. Others are and have been in for the long haul. Some an afford new engines others can not. For me I would have to buy older new or used engines and possibly get them converted with ERR or some other system. Now with ERR going out I have to wonder as everyone else is -"What are my options?" OUR options are few or many based on each persons PERSONAL feelings. I believe like others that more options are out there or going to come. You can NOT have major train manufacturers installing a system that is going to be extinct in new engines and make sales. SOMEONE is going to step up and either change those systems to an existing one or a new one. Atlas and 3rd Rail can't live on history parts that may no longer be. They, as has been said, are in the same situation we are. Me? I look forward with hope and even some joy. Sure I am upset and sad about the past but it is the past. Just as WE get old so does technology hence the need for change. EVERYONE COMPLAINED WHEN PASSENGER SERVICE DIED with each individual railroad but how many support what is today? IF we support what comes it can be better and greater for everyone including most of all THE HOBBY. AS WE GET OLDER WE NEED TO SUPPORT THE HOBBY! We are like the museums and Preservationist for the FUTURE generations. Our job is to ride the rails and enjoy the ride as
????? Yes, and a Company to listen to the wants of it' buyer within reason!
Access to this requires an OGR Forum Supporting Membership
