The death of the TMCC upgrade

Ummm........ WHAT???!!!  WHY???!!!

I'll be emailing Lionel shortly.

Boooooo

This is very disturbing news to say the least. The one change I've noticed that the return labels on my last two orders from ERR indicated the package was from B.G. Technologies of the same Walsh Ave. address. Any explanations?

That stinks! My concern is the repair of things I already have. What happens when my aftermarket boards fail-where can I go?

Scott Smith

A VERY POOR DECISION INDEED.

I just ordered a few things in case this is inevitable.

I e-mailed Lionel; this very disappointing, but I do understand it is a business.

-Jim

good post Derek!!!

Is ERR going out of business?  Or just their contracts with Lionel?  Will they still be operative for consumers to purchase their product line?  

That explains why I can’t get an email returned on a board question.   I hate this as a hobbiest But business wise it makes sense.   Why put money in making old locos work like new when you need to sell new ones.   Now i know there are tons of applications such as my own instance of adding tmcc to my childhood 027 engine that doesn’t really apply but it’s dollars and cents like everything else.   If they are making money off these upgrades.  I’m guessing this wouldn’t be a topic of discussion

Really sad stuff here. 

  This is not good for the future of the hobby and Lionel train business. Does anyone think that Lionel will offer to install new electronics in any of their products that may died or will they push the hobby into a disposable platform?

This is disappointing for those if us who like to truly play around with these things.

As someone who did a lot of these TMCC upgrades and had a lot of fun with them, this is very disappointing. I'd hate to ask what will happen if these electronics go bad in the near future, or even how many of those pieces are left in the world. Does this mean they are still able to be grabbed before the start of the next month?

I still have a few upgrades to older motor swapped Lionel locomotives from the 90's I would've loved to use the Cruise Commander in.

Though this does give me a chance to practice performing DCS upgrades...

I think someone needs to find out the bottom line from ERR in CA. on Monday

I purchased a DC commander at York after I heard about this at the meeting. At least I'll be able to convert one more engine. If worse comes to worse I'll be able to rob some electronics out of some of my shelf queens.(pity to the guy who buys them from my wife after I'm dead!)

This is what I wrote and sent to Lionel:

To Whom It May Concern,

When I arrived home tonight a good friend sent me a text that Lionel has made the decision to close the ElectricRR company and no longer produce these products.

This is very sad news indeed and I would ask that you reconsider the decision to close ElectricRR and no longer produce these components for several reasons. I have been involved in the business world for over 35 years and I earned my MBA while raising my two children. I also participate in a train club that promotes the hobby and Lionel trains. When I talk to the person getting into trains they have several questions. The idea of being able to convert any O or S gauge to command control is a selling point to getting into our hobby. While there are not a lot of people that do conversions any more, the hobbyist are still there and I feel having the ElectricRR company to not only upgrade but replace old TMCC components adds life and value to any Lionel product as a whole.

I do know supporting such a low volume business is considered an expenditure to the overall company but I view the ElectricRR company as another essential component of the business being just as important such as Human Resources and Loss Prevention. Neither Human Resources nor Loss Prevention generates revenue but their contributions to avoiding losses are essential to the bottom line. The ElectricRR company should be positioned as such in communicating to all customers not only does Lionel appreciate and value their customers but they also provide additional support to keep their products running well into the future.

Please reconsider your decision to close the ElectricRR company and keep the doors open instead.

Thank you,

Jefferson Meyer, MBA

TTOS Southern Pacific Division and Lionel Ambassador Club

Thanks for the warning!!! I just ordered seven, in case they aren't bluffing.

This is the best argument out there against proprietary control systems and electronics. I doubt it will be long before TMCC will no longer be made available to other outside manufacturers such as Atlas, and it also means that any currently equipped TMCC equipped locos are throw-always once you have any problems with the electronics, since replacement boards will not be available. Stocking up on boards won’t help much, because by the time you actually get to use them, they will be out of any warranty period. You have to wonder how long before Legacy goes down the same road in favor of some newer system...

Bill in FtL

This really sucks.  This will kill the used engine market.  Anything I wanted to purchase pre TMCC or pre cruise will be out of the question now.  Lionel this is a low blow.   Our only option with be PS3/2 upgrades if you can get them.

Not happy here ether.

Bearing in mind that I live over 3k miles from a Lionel repair centre. 

The UK dealer (unless things have changed) won’t touch Legacy/TMCC items for repair. The choice fix it yourself or return to USA with all the shipping and customs  hassles and expense.  ERR was especially useful for replacing dead TMCC electronics with such items as the Cruise ‘M’.

I have also done a number of conventional upgrades to TMCC the latest being a Darstaed A4 LNER Mallard. I don’t see Lionel have missed a sale (if that’s the corporate thinking here) as I don’t see any UK outline locos in the catalog....

If I was cynical I would agree that it might be a slippery slope to the planned obsolescence of TMCC/Legacy and Bluetooth/Lionchief control for all Lionel products.

Nick

Personally, ERR are easy to install for the average hobbyist and repair, upgrade and keep them running for us on a budget. 

This decision may very well make me think about ending my interest and moving further into buying, expanding my layout and start selling off and finding a new hobby. I just received my bill on a upgrade to PS3 on an engine, and now with this news, I very well may move on and out if this is so.

We both lose now, myself possible ending my model railroading in "O" scale, and lose of buying any new items from Lionel.  

Built in obsolescence is the bane of modern economics. Lionel needs to be run by bean counters who Pursue and PROMOTE this HOBBY!  Promotion equals profits.

The hobby continues to shrink. 

Edit/Add:   After looking at this stuff (trains) for 15 plus years, most likely time to move on..........

I see the point of this and I'm surprised it hasn't happened sooner. Currently, Lionel has 3 control systems in play - Lionchief, Legacy/TMCC and Bluetooth. I wouldn't be surprised that in a couple of years the Legacy control system will not be supported and all Legacy properties will be shifted to the mobile app utilizing Bluetooth. Lionel won't have to manufacture all those hand-held controls as most folks have some type of mobile smartphone or tablet these days. It would certainly make operations much simpler.

I do think what Lionel should offer some type of retrofit Bluetooth control board. It would make sense. The only other company I'm aware of that offers Bluetooth control is Bluerail. 

The one thing Lionel needs to make certain is that control boards need to be robust not to fail in short order.

I do hope that the decision to close Electric RR is not the final word.  Some opportunity to upgrade conventional/older locomotives to TMCC (or perhaps LionChief+) is essential to a small proportion of consumers and to Lionel’s image as the leader in the field.

There's not enough competition in this market segment, that's the root of the problem.

This really hurts...I have spent a lot of money and time converting some old engines and now what...just scrap them?? This is a major blow to the toy train market and will hurt the hobby unless Lionel can come up with an alternative. I am very disappointed. The fact that it doesn't add much to the bottom line is an issue but you must think of the overall marketing approach.

scott.smith posted:

That stinks! My concern is the repair of things I already have. What happens when my aftermarket boards fail-where can I go?

Scott Smith

To MTH for their proto board conversion kits?

That was my take in my email to Lionel. The bottom line in ERR doesn’t directly show the full financial benefit of satisfied and loyal Lionel customers who also are encouraged to  purchase the latest scale Lionel engines.

On the topic of loyalty and the bottom line... don't be loyal. Competition helps.

So, if lack of profit is truly the real reason for this decision, I'm curious what, if any attempts have been made by Lionel to sell off this losing ERR entity as many other companies have done with financially draining segments of their companies? It would be great if Mike Reagan, (should he want to,) be able to take back contol of this tmcc upgrading baby he once gave birth to.

Lionel raised ERR’s prices substantially immediately after their takeover of the business. One must wonder what role Lionel’s higher pricing played in the downturn of sales volume. Personally, their high current prices have quashed many a potential upgrade when the combined costs of a driver and sound board are considered. And, there was no innovation (deliberately?) to develop more sound sets, or customizable sound sets.  If Lionel were serious about supporting our hobby, and ERR’s sucess, they would have both reduced the price points on old TMCC technology, and provided methods of upgrading trains to the Legacy system.  And Derek, thank you for speaking up. 

Just 3 simple questions for Lionel

1- Even though small, are they losing money on ERR?

2- How will this help the Hobby, and Lionel by disfranchising the do-it yourselfers who wish to not only upgrade engines to Command, and upgrade switches to command and also those who have a business in upgrading to TMC?

3- With all the recent problems with products, product release dates, etc., how will this decision help Lionel with present and future customers?

It SUCKS!

This is one of the reasons I dislike proprietary protocols. This would never happen in HO or any other scale for that matter including 2 rail O where there will always be 3rd party businesses who produce Command Control boards. I really feel bad for the 3 rail operators who find an older conventional locomotive or a locomotive with a blown board at a great price and want to upgrade it to Command Control. They are stuck either keeping it conventional or going with DCS. I find it hard to believe ERR was costing Lionel a lot of money to operate. It appears to me that Lionel is trying to back hobbyists into a corner to buy new locomotives. 

Anyone call Mike Wolf to see if he will pick the line up?

ogaugeguy posted:

So, if lack of profit is truly the real reason for this decision, I'm curious what, if any attempts have been made by Lionel to sell off this losing ERR entity as many other companies have done with financially draining segments of their companies? It would be great if Mike Reagan, (should he want to,) be able to take back contol of this tmcc upgrading baby he once gave birth to.

Mike Reagan?  I thought ERR was Jon Zahornacky‘s baby?

cjack posted:

That was my take in my email to Lionel. The bottom line in ERR doesn’t directly show the full financial benefit of satisfied and loyal Lionel customers who also are encouraged to  purchase the latest scale Lionel engines.

Why should any customer remain loyal to Lionel when Lionel obviously has no loyalty whatsoever to the customers who keep them in business? 

Unless I heard incorrectly, I believe the number Dave Olson quoted for ERR profit  was less than $5k for a year of operation.

Not to cross thread topics too much here, but I am a firm believer that this decision combined with many of the recent somewhat widespread quality issues for certain items means that the Guggenheim people are holding the purse strings and dictating how things like this go, rather than allowing things like this that build good will from hobbyists to continue.

The bottom line is this company needs another interested owner like Richard Kughn in charge right now, not a financial company that couldn't care less if they are making model trains vs. pencils or paper plates.

-Dave