The death of the TMCC upgrade

Ummm........ WHAT???!!!  WHY???!!!

I'll be emailing Lionel shortly.

Boooooo

This is very disturbing news to say the least. The one change I've noticed that the return labels on my last two orders from ERR indicated the package was from B.G. Technologies of the same Walsh Ave. address. Any explanations?

That stinks! My concern is the repair of things I already have. What happens when my aftermarket boards fail-where can I go?

Scott Smith

A VERY POOR DECISION INDEED.

I just ordered a few things in case this is inevitable.

I e-mailed Lionel; this very disappointing, but I do understand it is a business.

-Jim

good post Derek!!!

Is ERR going out of business?  Or just their contracts with Lionel?  Will they still be operative for consumers to purchase their product line?  

That explains why I can’t get an email returned on a board question.   I hate this as a hobbiest But business wise it makes sense.   Why put money in making old locos work like new when you need to sell new ones.   Now i know there are tons of applications such as my own instance of adding tmcc to my childhood 027 engine that doesn’t really apply but it’s dollars and cents like everything else.   If they are making money off these upgrades.  I’m guessing this wouldn’t be a topic of discussion

Really sad stuff here. 

  This is not good for the future of the hobby and Lionel train business. Does anyone think that Lionel will offer to install new electronics in any of their products that may died or will they push the hobby into a disposable platform?

This is disappointing for those if us who like to truly play around with these things.

As someone who did a lot of these TMCC upgrades and had a lot of fun with them, this is very disappointing. I'd hate to ask what will happen if these electronics go bad in the near future, or even how many of those pieces are left in the world. Does this mean they are still able to be grabbed before the start of the next month?

I still have a few upgrades to older motor swapped Lionel locomotives from the 90's I would've loved to use the Cruise Commander in.

Though this does give me a chance to practice performing DCS upgrades...

I think someone needs to find out the bottom line from ERR in CA. on Monday

I purchased a DC commander at York after I heard about this at the meeting. At least I'll be able to convert one more engine. If worse comes to worse I'll be able to rob some electronics out of some of my shelf queens.(pity to the guy who buys them from my wife after I'm dead!)

This is what I wrote and sent to Lionel:

To Whom It May Concern,

When I arrived home tonight a good friend sent me a text that Lionel has made the decision to close the ElectricRR company and no longer produce these products.

This is very sad news indeed and I would ask that you reconsider the decision to close ElectricRR and no longer produce these components for several reasons. I have been involved in the business world for over 35 years and I earned my MBA while raising my two children. I also participate in a train club that promotes the hobby and Lionel trains. When I talk to the person getting into trains they have several questions. The idea of being able to convert any O or S gauge to command control is a selling point to getting into our hobby. While there are not a lot of people that do conversions any more, the hobbyist are still there and I feel having the ElectricRR company to not only upgrade but replace old TMCC components adds life and value to any Lionel product as a whole.

I do know supporting such a low volume business is considered an expenditure to the overall company but I view the ElectricRR company as another essential component of the business being just as important such as Human Resources and Loss Prevention. Neither Human Resources nor Loss Prevention generates revenue but their contributions to avoiding losses are essential to the bottom line. The ElectricRR company should be positioned as such in communicating to all customers not only does Lionel appreciate and value their customers but they also provide additional support to keep their products running well into the future.

Please reconsider your decision to close the ElectricRR company and keep the doors open instead.

Thank you,

Jefferson Meyer, MBA

TTOS Southern Pacific Division and Lionel Ambassador Club

Thanks for the warning!!! I just ordered seven, in case they aren't bluffing.

This is the best argument out there against proprietary control systems and electronics. I doubt it will be long before TMCC will no longer be made available to other outside manufacturers such as Atlas, and it also means that any currently equipped TMCC equipped locos are throw-always once you have any problems with the electronics, since replacement boards will not be available. Stocking up on boards won’t help much, because by the time you actually get to use them, they will be out of any warranty period. You have to wonder how long before Legacy goes down the same road in favor of some newer system...

Bill in FtL

This really sucks.  This will kill the used engine market.  Anything I wanted to purchase pre TMCC or pre cruise will be out of the question now.  Lionel this is a low blow.   Our only option with be PS3/2 upgrades if you can get them.

Not happy here ether.

Bearing in mind that I live over 3k miles from a Lionel repair centre. 

The UK dealer (unless things have changed) won’t touch Legacy/TMCC items for repair. The choice fix it yourself or return to USA with all the shipping and customs  hassles and expense.  ERR was especially useful for replacing dead TMCC electronics with such items as the Cruise ‘M’.

I have also done a number of conventional upgrades to TMCC the latest being a Darstaed A4 LNER Mallard. I don’t see Lionel have missed a sale (if that’s the corporate thinking here) as I don’t see any UK outline locos in the catalog....

If I was cynical I would agree that it might be a slippery slope to the planned obsolescence of TMCC/Legacy and Bluetooth/Lionchief control for all Lionel products.

Nick

Personally, ERR are easy to install for the average hobbyist and repair, upgrade and keep them running for us on a budget. 

This decision may very well make me think about ending my interest and moving further into buying, expanding my layout and start selling off and finding a new hobby. I just received my bill on a upgrade to PS3 on an engine, and now with this news, I very well may move on and out if this is so.

We both lose now, myself possible ending my model railroading in "O" scale, and lose of buying any new items from Lionel.  

Built in obsolescence is the bane of modern economics. Lionel needs to be run by bean counters who Pursue and PROMOTE this HOBBY!  Promotion equals profits.

The hobby continues to shrink. 

Edit/Add:   After looking at this stuff (trains) for 15 plus years, most likely time to move on..........

I see the point of this and I'm surprised it hasn't happened sooner. Currently, Lionel has 3 control systems in play - Lionchief, Legacy/TMCC and Bluetooth. I wouldn't be surprised that in a couple of years the Legacy control system will not be supported and all Legacy properties will be shifted to the mobile app utilizing Bluetooth. Lionel won't have to manufacture all those hand-held controls as most folks have some type of mobile smartphone or tablet these days. It would certainly make operations much simpler.

I do think what Lionel should offer some type of retrofit Bluetooth control board. It would make sense. The only other company I'm aware of that offers Bluetooth control is Bluerail. 

The one thing Lionel needs to make certain is that control boards need to be robust not to fail in short order.

I do hope that the decision to close Electric RR is not the final word.  Some opportunity to upgrade conventional/older locomotives to TMCC (or perhaps LionChief+) is essential to a small proportion of consumers and to Lionel’s image as the leader in the field.

There's not enough competition in this market segment, that's the root of the problem.

This really hurts...I have spent a lot of money and time converting some old engines and now what...just scrap them?? This is a major blow to the toy train market and will hurt the hobby unless Lionel can come up with an alternative. I am very disappointed. The fact that it doesn't add much to the bottom line is an issue but you must think of the overall marketing approach.

scott.smith posted:

That stinks! My concern is the repair of things I already have. What happens when my aftermarket boards fail-where can I go?

Scott Smith

To MTH for their proto board conversion kits?

That was my take in my email to Lionel. The bottom line in ERR doesn’t directly show the full financial benefit of satisfied and loyal Lionel customers who also are encouraged to  purchase the latest scale Lionel engines.

On the topic of loyalty and the bottom line... don't be loyal. Competition helps.

So, if lack of profit is truly the real reason for this decision, I'm curious what, if any attempts have been made by Lionel to sell off this losing ERR entity as many other companies have done with financially draining segments of their companies? It would be great if Mike Reagan, (should he want to,) be able to take back contol of this tmcc upgrading baby he once gave birth to.

Lionel raised ERR’s prices substantially immediately after their takeover of the business. One must wonder what role Lionel’s higher pricing played in the downturn of sales volume. Personally, their high current prices have quashed many a potential upgrade when the combined costs of a driver and sound board are considered. And, there was no innovation (deliberately?) to develop more sound sets, or customizable sound sets.  If Lionel were serious about supporting our hobby, and ERR’s sucess, they would have both reduced the price points on old TMCC technology, and provided methods of upgrading trains to the Legacy system.  And Derek, thank you for speaking up. 

Just 3 simple questions for Lionel

1- Even though small, are they losing money on ERR?

2- How will this help the Hobby, and Lionel by disfranchising the do-it yourselfers who wish to not only upgrade engines to Command, and upgrade switches to command and also those who have a business in upgrading to TMC?

3- With all the recent problems with products, product release dates, etc., how will this decision help Lionel with present and future customers?

It SUCKS!

This is one of the reasons I dislike proprietary protocols. This would never happen in HO or any other scale for that matter including 2 rail O where there will always be 3rd party businesses who produce Command Control boards. I really feel bad for the 3 rail operators who find an older conventional locomotive or a locomotive with a blown board at a great price and want to upgrade it to Command Control. They are stuck either keeping it conventional or going with DCS. I find it hard to believe ERR was costing Lionel a lot of money to operate. It appears to me that Lionel is trying to back hobbyists into a corner to buy new locomotives. 

Anyone call Mike Wolf to see if he will pick the line up?

ogaugeguy posted:

So, if lack of profit is truly the real reason for this decision, I'm curious what, if any attempts have been made by Lionel to sell off this losing ERR entity as many other companies have done with financially draining segments of their companies? It would be great if Mike Reagan, (should he want to,) be able to take back contol of this tmcc upgrading baby he once gave birth to.

Mike Reagan?  I thought ERR was Jon Zahornacky‘s baby?

cjack posted:

That was my take in my email to Lionel. The bottom line in ERR doesn’t directly show the full financial benefit of satisfied and loyal Lionel customers who also are encouraged to  purchase the latest scale Lionel engines.

Why should any customer remain loyal to Lionel when Lionel obviously has no loyalty whatsoever to the customers who keep them in business? 

Unless I heard incorrectly, I believe the number Dave Olson quoted for ERR profit  was less than $5k for a year of operation.

Not to cross thread topics too much here, but I am a firm believer that this decision combined with many of the recent somewhat widespread quality issues for certain items means that the Guggenheim people are holding the purse strings and dictating how things like this go, rather than allowing things like this that build good will from hobbyists to continue.

The bottom line is this company needs another interested owner like Richard Kughn in charge right now, not a financial company that couldn't care less if they are making model trains vs. pencils or paper plates.

-Dave

lol, 3 control systems - none that talk to each other - they should have stayed with just tmcc/ legacy..

MrMoe50 posted:

ogaugeguy posted:

So, if lack of profit is truly the real reason for this decision, I'm curious what, if any attempts have been made by Lionel to sell off this losing ERR entity as many other companies have done with financially draining segments of their companies? It would be great if Mike Reagan, (should he want to,) be able to take back contol of this tmcc upgrading baby he once gave birth to.

Mike Reagan?  I thought ERR was Jon Zahornacky‘s baby?

Mike Reagan started a company called Train America Studios that sold many TMCC upgrade products before Mike went to work for Lionel and closed that business as a result.  While they didn't offer boards, the same came to be for Lou Kovach's previous company (IC Controls) that was the original source of the TPC units and other components. 

-Dave

cjack posted:

Oh...didn't know Jon left. Where did he go...still trains?

Retired from Lionel in January as full time employee.  Dave Olson said at the meeting that Jon remains as a Lionel sub-contractor to support some projects.

-Dave

Dave45681 posted:

The bottom line is this company needs another interested owner like Richard Kughn in charge right now, not a financial company that couldn't care less if they are making model trains vs. pencils or paper plates.

-Dave

This is exactly what needs to happen. I don't see that white knight this time though.

Pete

Wow. That's terrible. It's frustrating enough there's hardly any other aftermarket TMCC/RS boards out there. If Lionel wants to blame poor profits on their decision, my question is what did they do to help support ERR? The product line, although very good, has pretty much stayed the same since ERR came to be. For example, the 'SD' sound board is fairly generic, based on SD50 sounds, I believe. I've been wanting to upgrade my KCC SD75 sound for years, but kept putting it off because I was hoping for something with a more accurate horn. I might have to pull the trigger now and make due. Maybe adding some new product would have helped. Who knows......

It was announced Friday morning that as of May of 2018, Lionel plans to cease operations of
The Electric Railroad Company, effectively ending the market for TMCC upgrade kits.
Some details were shared as to why the decision was made, the overwhelming reason being the
very small contribution that ERR provides to the bottom line of Lionel.

I knew IT! Once Jon Retired from Lionel in Jan I new it was just a matter of time!  Just like Train America! De Ja Voo Doo!

And MTH PS upgrades may be in Jepardy too!  Afterall, Why create more competition with the old product upgrades!

OR  Mike and Andy could Crank up More PS3 Kit production and create more sales of their DCS system!

The whole thing stinks --- so now you're telling me we've all invested in a control system that if something breaks we can't fix it ???

Am I understanding this correctly ???

Nice Lionel

Probably the first time in my life I've been truly disappointed in a train company

I generally don't speak out often BUT !!,  this is so disheartening, simple solution ! place the ERR inventory in Lionel existing inventory problem solved. The product is still going to be produced on a regular basis for Atlas and 3rd rail locos, so why not continue to produce it for the consumer. I use it on a daily basis for my customers, how much more of a HIT is this hobby going to take. Cannot believe that such a quick decision has been made just to end ERR, this is a sad day !!!!!!!!!!!!

Alex

Alex M posted:

I generally don't speak out often BUT !!,  this is so disheartening, simple solution ! place the ERR inventory in Lionel existing inventory problem solved. The product is still going to be produced on a regular basis for Atlas and 3rd rail locos, so why not continue to produce it for the consumer. I use it on a daily basis for my customers, how much more of a HIT is this hobby going to take. Cannot believe that such a quick decision has been made just to end ERR, this is a sad day !!!!!!!!!!!!

Alex

You know what they say Alex. When one door closes. Two more open. A solution will be found and in the long run it will only hurt Lionel. 

J Daddy posted:

Alex M posted:

I generally don't speak out often BUT !!,  this is so disheartening, simple solution ! place the ERR inventory in Lionel existing inventory problem solved. The product is still going to be produced on a regular basis for Atlas and 3rd rail locos, so why not continue to produce it for the consumer. I use it on a daily basis for my customers, how much more of a HIT is this hobby going to take. Cannot believe that such a quick decision has been made just to end ERR, this is a sad day !!!!!!!!!!!!

Alex

You know what they say Alex. When one door closes. Two more open. A solution will be found and in the long run it will only hurt Lionel. 

Yes John i totally agree , this quick trigger decision by the top brass of Lionel, will 1000 percent only hurt them. Unfortunately it's going to hurt me pretty bad.

What REALLY Sucks is this "decision" only gives a Week to Buyout ANY inventory for any FUTURE projects! Who has the cash lying around to do that? [ Taxes, York, April Deals from vendors, etc.]

Originally posted by Alex M:


Yes John I totally agree , this quick trigger decision by the top brass of Lionel,

will 1000 percent only hurt them. Unfortunately it's going to hurt me pretty bad.

HOME OF THE JADA RAILROAD

Know How to Install Ps3?

Protest! Stop buying ...It's that simple!

I 100% agree this is a poor decision. I will be writing as well to Lionel management. I encourage everyone here with the pitch forks to do the same otherwise you are just background noise. This is a decision above those who correspond with us on this board. I also encourage those writing to be respectful but firm. Otherwise again your point will have less impact. 

While I can certainly see some of the smaller items being retired, engine upgrades should be at minimal available. 

Well that's it! I just smashed my NASCAR Mega Traxx popcorn tin I'm so mad!

Lionel is now setting a presedence of not supporting existing and FUTURE products.

I am now canceling my 2018 orders.

This is heartbreaking news, I have done a number of TMCC conversions of my own and for other club members, now Lionel hangs us out to dry. Sad Sad Day. TMCC put new life in this hobby for many of us, now Lionel removes the heart.

Ray

robmcc posted:

Wow. That's terrible. It's frustrating enough there's hardly any other aftermarket TMCC/RS boards out there. If Lionel wants to blame poor profits on their decision, my question is what did they do to help support ERR? The product line, although very good, has pretty much stayed the same since ERR came to be. For example, the 'SD' sound board is fairly generic, based on SD50 sounds, I believe. I've been wanting to upgrade my KCC SD75 sound for years, but kept putting it off because I was hoping for something with a more accurate horn. I might have to pull the trigger now and make due. Maybe adding some new product would have helped. Who knows......

Rob, I'm not trying to pick on you here, but your points show how often we fall into the "don't know what you've got until it's gone" scenario.

In the past, you were worried about the offerings not being as specific as you would like.

Well, Lionel says no problem, we will just stop offering them all together.  And now the first option looks a lot better, even if the horn wasn't quite right.

As much as die hard hobbyists may have had a use for specific sound sets for different engines, I have a feeling the market is small enough for upgrades, making more specific ones available might have made it even less financially feasible for them to offer.

-Dave

"Mike Reagan?  I thought ERR was Jon Zahornacky‘s baby?"

That is correct.

I would not be surprised if this decision is reversed or modified.  For those not around in 2000 or so, Mike Wolf was absolutely adamant that PS2 retrofit kits would not be made.  That decision didn't last long when the howls of dissatisfaction were heard.  Let's let Lionel know this isn't a good decision and the result may be similar .

I was needless to say, bummed out by hearing this news.  I will doubtless have to discontinue my Super-Chuffer and Chuff-Generator as not having TMCC upgrades makes them kinda' moot.  I will obviously be emphasizing my PS/3 upgrade business since that's now the only command/control upgrade path it would appear.  I discount BlueTooth at the present as I still haven't seen an O-gauge product.  Sure makes me wonder why I didn't go with HO and standard control systems!

I'll be taking a close look at the MTH catalogs for my future purchases, hard to justify rewarding Lionel for jerking the rug out!

This might sound improbable, but it's obvious from reading the posts of folks on 3 rail train forums and seeing the layouts some have had built for themselves along with the sizes of many collections they and others have that more than  a handful of 3 railers are financially prosperous. So what would be the possibility of a group of them along with some of the major retailers of Lionel products possibly forming a consortium and make Lionel an offer to purchase the ERR business?

@Notch 6 

Derek do we have a more direct email to Howard?  While Talk to Us has worked in the past, an important matter like this seems to need a more direct route. 

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

What REALLY Sucks is this "decision" only gives a Week to Buyout ANY inventory for any FUTURE projects! Who has the cash lying around to do that? [ Taxes, York, April Deals from vendors, etc.]

Originally posted by Alex M:

Yes John I totally agree , this quick trigger decision by the top brass of Lionel,

will 1000 percent only hurt them. Unfortunately it's going to hurt me pretty bad.

HOME OF THE JADA RAILROAD

Know How to Install Ps3?

Won't hurt me..more money in my pocket! They just forced me into proto upgrades. 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I was needless to say, bummed out by hearing this news.  I will doubtless have to discontinue my Super-Chuffer and Chuff-Generator as not having TMCC upgrades makes them kinda' moot.  I will obviously be emphasizing my PS/3 upgrade business since that's now the only command/control upgrade path it would appear.  I discount BlueTooth at the present as I still haven't seen an O-gauge product.  Sure makes me wonder why I didn't go with HO and standard control systems!

I'll be taking a close look at the MTH catalogs for my future purchases, hard to justify rewarding Lionel for jerking the rug out!

You should be! Not good for your bottom line.

Dave45681 posted:

robmcc posted:

Wow. That's terrible. It's frustrating enough there's hardly any other aftermarket TMCC/RS boards out there. If Lionel wants to blame poor profits on their decision, my question is what did they do to help support ERR? The product line, although very good, has pretty much stayed the same since ERR came to be. For example, the 'SD' sound board is fairly generic, based on SD50 sounds, I believe. I've been wanting to upgrade my KCC SD75 sound for years, but kept putting it off because I was hoping for something with a more accurate horn. I might have to pull the trigger now and make due. Maybe adding some new product would have helped. Who knows......

Rob, I'm not trying to pick on you here, but your points show how often we fall into the "don't know what you've got until it's gone" scenario.

In the past, you were worried about the offerings not being as specific as you would like.

Well, Lionel says no problem, we will just stop offering them all together.  And now the first option looks a lot better, even if the horn wasn't quite right.

As much as die hard hobbyists may have had a use for specific sound sets for different engines, I have a feeling the market is small enough for upgrades, making more specific ones available might have made it even less financially feasible for them to offer.

-Dave

Dave, Ho has upgrades, mth, has upgrades! Does, Lionel think they are pushing me into lionchief..lol

I doubt that losing the business will be a huge financial blow to me, I do this mostly because I enjoy the people and the hobby!  I could take a one day a week job at a big box store and make more money than my little electronics projects make, so I doubt I'll starve.

Patrick1544 posted:

Is ERR going out of business?  Or just their contracts with Lionel?  Will they still be operative for consumers to purchase their product line?  

ERR is owned by Lionel and they are shutting it down for the public.

I don't argue that I don't like the decision, and I'm sure I'm far from the only person that will be disappointed.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I was needless to say, bummed out by hearing this news.  I will doubtless have to discontinue my Super-Chuffer and Chuff-Generator as not having TMCC upgrades makes them kinda' moot.  I will obviously be emphasizing my PS/3 upgrade business since that's now the only command/control upgrade path it would appear.  I discount BlueTooth at the present as I still haven't seen an O-gauge product.  Sure makes me wonder why I didn't go with HO and standard control systems!

I'll be taking a close look at the MTH catalogs for my future purchases, hard to justify rewarding Lionel for jerking the rug out!

Now I'm really mad  I have gunrunner's super-chuffer and chuff-generator along with ERR cruise commander in three 3rdrail engines, One Kline engine.  I still have two engines that have TAS EOB installed which I know are going to fail someday which ERR cruise was my best bet to retro fit.  John makes a great product, and I would hate to see that go away.

Funny as writing this I got a auto response from Lionel thanking me for my interest in Lionel.

Hey John,

Any chance you can design your own cruise without stepping on anyone's patents?

Landsteiner posted:

I do hope that the decision to close Electric RR is not the final word.  Some opportunity to upgrade conventional/older locomotives to TMCC (or perhaps LionChief+) is essential to a small proportion of consumers and to Lionel’s image as the leader in the field.

 

Lionel’s main competition,  MTH, has been noticeably unfriendly to upgrades over the years,  and this has helped cement Lionel’s role as the primary innovator in the industry.  Completely eliminating TMCC upgrades without a possibility of upgrading to LionChiefPlus for command capability would be a marketing gift to their main competition.

This is a false statement. MTH "unfriendly to upgrades???.  Some how this makes Lionel and innovator???  ERR was Jon's brain child and Lionel bought him out.

As far as MTH, they make and sell upgrade kits.  They made PS-2 steam and diesel kits, even made a slave kit to upgrade their ABA.  They made conversion kits to repair their first generation PS-2 5V board, ensuring the second generation PS-2 3V was backward compatible, they then put in the effort to redo all the sound files for PS-2 5V boards to support it.

When parts became obsolete they transitioned to PS-3 and created the PS-3 upgrade kits, they also made the PS-32 to replace the PS-2 3V and 5V boards.

They have always been backwards compatible.  Why do you always stir the pot and cast MTH in a negative view.

The was about Lionel not MTH.  Frankly read the tea leaves.  Who is the only manufacture that does not repair their own trains because of employee cuts?  Now selling a product is cut?  G

well for lionel it might be a smart move monetary wise in todays market.

now for the person that has the initiative it just might be the door opening again to fulfill a market that seems to have marketability by just a few here and on the other forum unhappy with this decision to close err down to the consumer.

we have some very smart folks in the repair end of this that could create a new market for themselves if they so decided to do so.
yes it would be a lot of work to create a new product and maybe just maybe they would do it even better and create such a market that it ate into all current companies wanting you to buy the latest greatest.

I see this as an opportunity for someone with the initiative to feel the water out and see if a market is there and if it is a financial gain for the wallet.

on a secondary thought and this is really out there but with the advent of newer and newer technology what if instead of a hands on layout and buying all items you created a virtual reality utilizing a pc and other items and setup a rail empire of any size you wanted all within the confines of a desktop/laptop pc the possibilities are endless and is not out of the realm of actually becoming reality.

think about it 100 years ago we didn't have pc's internet self driving cars and yet today we do so someone had the foresight to create it and made a big pile of money too.

maybe someone here will be the next JLC of a really modern era!

I did not know Jon Z retired. That is really a shame, but this certainly looks like a company in financial crisis.  I find it hard to believe that ERR was operating at a loss?  Even if the profit margin was low why cut it, unless you think it cuts into sales of new trains where a higher margin may exist. G

Landsteiner posted:

"Mike Reagan?  I thought ERR was Jon Zahornacky‘s baby?"

That is correct.

I would not be surprised if this decision is reversed or modified.  For those not around in 2000 or so, Mike Wolf was absolutely adamant that PS2 retrofit kits would not be made.  That decision didn't last long when the howls of dissatisfaction were heard.  Let's let Lionel know this isn't a good decision and the result may be similar .

 

That would be nice, unfortunately the difference is Lionel is not currently owned by a single founder who has a real interest in trains. 

It's owned by a financial group that at some level has control over the people we know as the face of the company, and the financial backers don't care about trains and or the hobby in general, just financial performance. 

Sometimes doing things hobbyists like coincides with enhanced financial performance, sometimes the two are mutually exclusive.

-Dave

If someone wanted to do an ERR update, that is one new engine that Lionel will not sell.  I am sure Lionel can make more selling a new engine than ERR parts.  Today, Lionel has a great board system in the RCMC board.   I was very happy when the RCMC board system started showing up.  It beats the crap out of modular board TMCC and early Legacy with modular boards. 

ERR was very popular and I would not be surprised if someone does not pick up the line.   It was a quality product and I do not think it will go away.  

I think this is a big mistake for Lionel to stop the ERR boards  for the public. There are so many of the older trains that get converted. I know I have about 10 of the old mth ps-1 that I have to do. And was looking at doing some more of my Williams engines as well. This will be a terrible loss to the Hobby.

These products contribute much more than just profits, as they promote the TMCC/Legacy system overall.  With the widespread diversity of control systems (TMCC, Legacy, Bluetooth, Lionchief,  DCC, DCS, etc.) the consumer is left wondering what is safe to invest in.  The evolution of electronics, the emergence of Lionchief and now the closing of ERR causes me to be afraid to continue to invest further in Legacy engines, as I fear they will not be supported in the future.

Bill

StPaul posted:

.............
now for the person that has the initiative it just might be the door opening again to fulfill a market that seems to have marketability by just a few here and on the other forum unhappy with this decision to close err down to the consumer.

we have some very smart folks in the repair end of this that could create a new market for themselves if they so decided to do so................

That assumes it still would be possible to license a right to make such a product? 

I have to assume Lionel still owns the rights to the protocol.  They had opened it up to try to make TMCC the standard in the market (most would agree that move was a decent success over the years - though obviously now MTH upgrades also are done - and maybe now A LOT more MTH upgrades!)

One can't just "decide" to make TMCC products, I don't think, but I may be mistaken.  TAS, ERR, etc was all with the blessing of Lionel when the products came to be (I think?).

-Dave

Gentlemen,

Bummer I have a ERR 249 that Guns needs to look at right now, I hope what ever is wrong with her Guns will be able to fix, if new parts are needed.

PCRR/Dave

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

ERR was very popular and I would not be surprised if someone does not pick up the line.   It was a quality product and I do not think it will go away.  

Since Lionel owns it, why would they sell it or give it away?   Not like ERR is an independent company that someone can take over. 

Like others have speculated, I wouldn't be surprised if Lionel pulls the license agreement from AtlasO and 3rdrail down the road and this is only the first step.

With that said with the flood of emails to Lionel, and maybe someone should post post a number we can all call too.   Lionel will see the error of their ways.

ogaugenut posted:

These products contribute much more than just profits, as they promote the TMCC/Legacy system overall.  With the widespread diversity of control systems (TMCC, Legacy, Bluetooth, Lionchief,  DCC, DCS, etc.) the consumer is left wondering what is safe to invest in.  The evolution of electronics, the emergence of Lionchief and now the closing of ERR causes me to be afraid to continue to invest further in Legacy engines, as I fear they will not be supported in the future.

Bill

Exactly!  The current state of electronics will allow forward and backward compatibility...

I've been trying to get a response from Ken on what cruise control products would be needed to upgrade the following but have received no response.

Can someone help?

Thanks.

The Legacy Users Group will be putting out a statement later today on this subject. I will post it to this thread and will re-emphasize it in the Legacy meeting Summary. 

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

If someone wanted to do an ERR update, that is one new engine that Lionel will not sell.  I am sure Lionel can make more selling a new engine than ERR parts.  Today, Lionel has a great board system in the RCMC board.   I was very happy when the RCMC board system started showing up.  It beats the crap out of modular board TMCC and early Legacy with modular boards. 

ERR was very popular and I would not be surprised if someone does not pick up the line.   It was a quality product and I do not think it will go away.  

Someone could only pick up the ERR line if Lionel was willing to sell it to them,Marty, and if what you've said, "If someone wanted to do an ERR update, that is one new engine that Lionel will not sell...." is likely true then Lionel selling ERR to anyone else would be harmful rather than beneficial to Lionel's financial health.

ITS TIME FOR DCC THREE RAIL WAS GOING TO ORDER MY 10TH LIONCHIEF OR FLYERCHIEF TODAY BUT NOT BUYING ANYMORE LIONEL PERIOD

I think this is not a very wise decision for lionel to discontinue the tmcc upgrades. However this does leave opportunities for others to make these upgrades but who knows at this point.

George,  I agree with you one hundred percent.  MTH listens and makes items and upgrade replacement boards.   Perhaps that guy who stated MTH has been noticeably unfriendly towards upgrades can tell us what he is talking about  as I am always eager to learn.  I have 191 DCS upgrades under my belt and I would bet you have more.   Never had an unfriendly moment.   

Our hobby has a very loyal number of Lionel only operators.  I respect that.  I love DCS, Legacy, and TMCC.  They are all great.  As we know, ERR was a great way to make things happen.   I admire and respect all the work John has done with the TMCC.   If anyone thinks that ERR is going to fade away, I would tell them not to bet money on it.  The product is a good one.

I don't believe that it is the bottom line at ERR but maybe not as much as they like. It is making a profit which is better than not and I think it is more than what we think we know. With TMCC no longer available the only way to have an engine with remote capabilities is to buy a engine with Legacy, DCC or DCS.

I am not about to switch my engines over as it will be to cost prohibitive. And what about the guy that can't afford a $900.00 engine but still wants the option of installing remote control in a less expensive engine....he is screwed.

I looked at BlueRail but it is only rated for 2 amps and that is not enough for a lot of our bigger engines pulling a load. They need to come out with a 4 and 8 amp product but then it will be expensive.

The ERR components are quality made and each component is tested before leaving the factory. It is usually the inexperience of the person doing the installation that can cause an issue. I have had very little warranty work for the ERR components and will continue installing TMCC. This is a big mistake by Lionel.

I have mostly starter set locomotives from my previous layout, I had hoped to start rebuilding another layout this year with the thought of upgrading my locomotives and layout to TMCC, well this throws the brakes on this idea. Guess it's going to be conventional again. TMCC system and boards were a fairly cheap price upgrade, DCS system and Proto 3 upgrades are out of my range. What's next, they'll shut down ERR completely to shaft Atlas and the others to make them change into buying Legacy and Lionchief Plus system boards then announce a year later due to lack of helping their bottom line  Lionel plans to drop Legacy for Lionchief Plus, then drop that the next year for their next "State of the Art" system that's not compatible with the rest either. Sorry Lionel, I know we're just numbers to your executive beancounters but there's a lot of us numbers out there that can hurt your bottom line a lot more if we all go stop buying your products and buy from MTH where the ones who can afford upgrades will do it and buy the Imperial or Premier lines for bigger layouts, and the ones like me will keep buying the Railking line for our small layouts. You should rethink your decision now before the day comes that MTH buys what's left of your corporate blunders and it becomes Lionel Trains By MTH!

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

George,  I agree with you one hundred percent.  MTH listens and makes items and upgrade replacement boards.   Perhaps that guy who stated MTH has been noticeably unfriendly towards upgrades can tell us what he is talking about  as I am always eager to learn.  I have 191 DCS upgrades under my belt and I would bet you have more.   Never had an unfriendly moment.   

Our hobby has a very loyal number of Lionel only operators.  I respect that.  I love DCS, Legacy, and TMCC.  They are all great.  As we know, ERR was a great way to make things happen.   I admire and respect all the work John has done with the TMCC.   If anyone thinks that ERR is going to fade away, I would tell them not to bet money on it.  The product is a good one.

 

 

 If anyone thinks that ERR is going to fade away, I would tell them not to bet money on it.  The product is a good one. Granted it is a good product, Marty, but how many other products in history have been quashed and set aside by businesses to spur the financial success of their other products.

Might this be a publicity ploy of Lionel who has no real intent of discontinuing the ERR line but rather has floated this news with the expectation of creating enough customer clamor for this product that Lionel could eventually proclaim, "After listening to an outpouring of correspondence from our "valued" customers we reviewed our ERR decision and reversed it, deciding instead to continue making ERR products available to our customers."

I'm sure if that were the case a considerable number of us here would rejoice if Lionel continued making ERR products available even if they're increased in price. Folks, anything's possible nowadays!

" Perhaps that guy who stated MTH has been noticeably unfriendly towards upgrades can tell us what he is talking about  as I am always eager to learn."

(1) MTH initially did not want to make PS2 upgrades available in 2000-2002 and (2) MTH has never allowed third parties to develop upgrades. In contrast,  Lionel allowed Mike Reagan, Lou Kovach,  Jon Zahornacky and others to develop various upgrades, boards and accessories for TMCC from the beginning,  20-25 years ago. 

Furthermore, Lionel has opened their system so if someone wants to clone TMCC or Legacy, they are free to do so without threat of legal action.  MTH has, for almost 20 years taken the exact opposite approach.  This is not about critiquing MTH, but pointing out  that Lionel's policies have served them well, and this change to a more MTH-like approach is a bad decision for hobbyists, and potentially for Lionel.

Didn't mean to make this a lateral arabesque into MTH policies. But the contrast since 1995 or so has been striking.

If Lionel allows someone else to make TMCC upgrades, or changes their mind due to public opinion, this issue may turn out to be a tempest in a teapot.

That said, this is an unwise decision.  Be interesting to know whether the sale between Jon Z. and Lionel allows Electric RR intellectual property to revert to Jon if Lionel abandons production.  That's a frequent aspect of such contracts when intellectual property is involved.  Jon could then reopen Electric RR or sell the rights to it to someone else, if that's the case.  One can hope .  We'll see, no doubt.

I would hope, that if Lionel's mind is made up, maybe the ERR division(if you can call it that) is going away and the products will be incorporated with all the other accessories they list in the back of the catalog.  Isn't the cruise commander already listed?   Which I would be fine with, as that 50% Lionel parts weekend every January would be sweet.

I'm trying to stay positive, hopefully Lionel will clarify their announcement.

And can we move the MTH stuff somewhere else.  This thread is about ERR.  please.

I find this especially troubling to those with postwar and older modern era Lionel equipment that have AC motors.

Like me, unless it’s a special locomotive, most don’t want to spend the extra money to modify and change the motor out when it would be easier to either A) buy a $70 AC motor TMCC Commander module, or B) get rid of that engine and buy a new LC/Proto2/3 version of the same engine. Cutting the former out means a lot of those engines are going to be shunted forever in the abandoned lot.

To those guys who have run conventional forever, more power to you. I have no problems with conventional locomotives at all. But I know that a huge portion of those in the hobby want everything they have to be remote compatible now, and those engines just won’t cut it with them.

And those who find it cheaper and easier to do a simple upgrade to their existing TMCC fleet, particularly those who have engines with can motors, are also going to get screwed over now. There are still some wonderful late 90’s to mid 00’s locomotives going at reasonable prices now, like Lionel’s first Allegheny and Big Boy, that with a simple and inexpensive ERR upgrade could be made even better and wouldn’t put a very large dent in your wallet. Now that would be no more...

It also begs the question what Atlas and 3rd Rail are going to do for operating systems in their locomotives. Will they change to DCS? I don’t think they’re going to come out with a system all their own any time soon...

I sent an email to Lionel hope more will do same. This is what I sent.

Ray

o Lionel,

     I am writing to say that the decision made by Lionel to cease operations of The Electric Rail Road is very disappointing to myself and I am sure many others in both the O gauge and S gauge model railroading communities. The investment made by Lionel into the aftermarket side of the model railroad hobby brought many of us back into a hobby that had grown cold to us. The opportunity to take some of our older conventional trains and move them into the modern era reinvigorated the hobby and us, it also led us to the purchase of first the TMCC Train Control and later into the Legacy Control System, along with the motive power that goes along with these systems. I am hoping that Lionel LLC might reconsider the decision to end production of these TMCC products and continue to supply perhaps a small but loyal following in this area of toy trains.

     I do thank you for all that Lionel has done in the past to enhance model railroading for us but again request that you reconsider this decision.

Thank you for listening

Raymond Puls

Guys, all good thoughts.    Who knows what the future will bring.   I have always felt the people who make toy trains will always want to sell the latest and greatest.   The bottom line keeps jobs if it is a good one.   

Landsteiner posted:

"Mike Reagan?  I thought ERR was Jon Zahornacky‘s baby?"

That is correct.

I would not be surprised if this decision is reversed or modified.  For those not around in 2000 or so, Mike Wolf was absolutely adamant that PS2 retrofit kits would not be made.  That decision didn't last long when the howls of dissatisfaction were heard.  Let's let Lionel know this isn't a good decision and the result may be similar .

 

IT wouldn't surprise me if this scenario plays out.....

Lionel Discontinues the ERR line and sells remaining inventory to a "Top Ten" dealer washing their hands clean.

MTH continues to sell their PS3 kits until their current inventory runs out and/ or one final run before quietly stopping production altogether by next year when tis Lionel/ERR fiasco "blows over"... making them look like "O gauge hero's" in the short term.

Now Lionel and MTH have alienated their biggest market threat of upgrading the Older trains with the latest electronics while still staying in business for the shrinking O guage crowd- forcing the O gauge crowd to purchase the Latest and Greatest at current market pricing to keep the profits rolling in OR forcing the O gauge crowd to canibalizing existing New Old Stock-shrinking that secondary Market.

Disappointing.

I never understood when companies say that a division is not making enough for the bottom line. 

It's one thing if a division is running at a loss.  Its another to dispose of a profit making division.

Even if the division makes $1 profit per year, its still profit and you are paying employees which is a good thing.

Done... and done. 

I’m FN done. Not only canceling my BTOs, but 2-Rail here I come. 

BTO engines do not use ERR.   Lionel currently has the best board system they have ever used.

MARTY THE BEEF NOT WITH BTO ITS WITH LIONEL 

For folks that think you can start up an ERR and make a living, you might want to ask GRJ if he could with his inventions.  Answer is probably no today.  John, has already stated that it is only hobby money.  Same to a degree in the repair business.

I hate to say it, but I doubt this decision is reversed, especially if the investors have been briefed.  Leader of these companies do not like to make a decision and say, oh, I made the wrong decision.  But I am still worth my salary.

Again, look at the moves Lionel has made over several years from a corporate perspective.  Investor want a return, not a loss.  They have consolidated location, cut employees, they have cut programs, they have restructured how they do service and parts, product lines now being reduced.  These may all be required to stay or become profitable.  You may not like it, but, it may be required to get the products you do get from Lionel.  G

It also begs the question what Atlas and 3rd Rail are going to do for operating systems in their locomotives.
Will they change to DCS? I don’t think they’re going to come out with a system all their own any time soon...
Thomas
Somerset County 4-H Trainmasters

Those companies still have contracts with Lionel to give them the TMCC Electronics.  Wvwntually, IT wouldn't surprise me if those contracts expire or those companies are sold off to another individual- which may reneg the original contract that they too will be "hung out to dry"

CentralFan1976 posted:

Done... and done. 

I’m FN done. Not only canceling my BTOs, but 2-Rail here I come. 

Hmm I did think about this as I have a major BTO(most I have ever spent on a engine)and and another pre-order.

However I don’t want to hurt the dealer I’m using. 

Possibly the “Nuclear Option” .

 Lets see if sensible heads prevail over the next week.

Nick

P.S. Got to get back to sharpening pitch forks and making burning torches

Patents on TMCC might be expiring ,and if you only knew how cheap it is to make basically WW2 technology boards in China , someone else can make the boards .

Funny how the DCC community thrives with lots of companies  ESU LOK  sound makes O scale electronic decoders for around $125 , when you get all proprietary(Lionel)  and the you as a customer buys into this one way non compatible system what do you expect .

Other scales thrive with young people because they never grew up with 3 rails , they go rail fanning and see real trains and 2 rails . the center rail is the "DoDo Bird" , what people fail to realize is DCC even has a simple version too called RAILPRO

I never hear the whining in HO about the quality control like here , you keep buying this head ache , this is what you get .

Lionel does not want to staff a tech support for amateurs upgrading electronics and  then having to warranty these boards . Some DCC manufacturers will repair any blown board I think for 25 no matter what . Think about it , the HO and N is  much smaller and the companies allstay in business , must be a big mark up on the sound boards .

Just my 2 cents

BillP posted:

Disappointing.

I never understood when companies say that a division is not making enough for the bottom line. 

It's one thing if a division is running at a loss.  Its another to dispose of a profit making division.

Even if the division makes $1 profit per year, its still profit and you are paying employees which is a good thing.

 

 

I guess that where the "greed" factor enters into the company's decision making process, BillP, deciding whether the profit made is "sizable enough" for them?

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I was needless to say, bummed out by hearing this news.  I will doubtless have to discontinue my Super-Chuffer and Chuff-Generator as not having TMCC upgrades makes them kinda' moot.  I will obviously be emphasizing my PS/3 upgrade business since that's now the only command/control upgrade path it would appear.  I discount BlueTooth at the present as I still haven't seen an O-gauge product.  Sure makes me wonder why I didn't go with HO and standard control systems!

I'll be taking a close look at the MTH catalogs for my future purchases, hard to justify rewarding Lionel for jerking the rug out!

Yes John, I'm seriously considering HO in my future !  enough is enough already

Alex

modeltrainsparts posted:

The one change I've noticed that the return labels on my last two orders from ERR indicated the package was from B.G. Technologies of the same Walsh Ave. address. Any explanations?

My most recent order of an ERR item (back in early March) was also shipped from B.G. Technologies and the same name appeared on the transaction on my Paypal account.

I just put in an order for one cruise commander and two cruise M kits.  Hope they have STILL have stock.  Should put in a order with Gunrunner to match.

Alex M posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I was needless to say, bummed out by hearing this news.  I will doubtless have to discontinue my Super-Chuffer and Chuff-Generator as not having TMCC upgrades makes them kinda' moot.  I will obviously be emphasizing my PS/3 upgrade business since that's now the only command/control upgrade path it would appear.  I discount BlueTooth at the present as I still haven't seen an O-gauge product.  Sure makes me wonder why I didn't go with HO and standard control systems!

I'll be taking a close look at the MTH catalogs for my future purchases, hard to justify rewarding Lionel for jerking the rug out!

Yes John, I'm seriously considering HO in my future !  enough is enough already

Alex

On30 would be an easier move. Replace your three rail track and keep all the rest.

Three in our 3 rail club have already made the switch.

Pete

Norton posted:

Alex M posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I was needless to say, bummed out by hearing this news.  I will doubtless have to discontinue my Super-Chuffer and Chuff-Generator as not having TMCC upgrades makes them kinda' moot.  I will obviously be emphasizing my PS/3 upgrade business since that's now the only command/control upgrade path it would appear.  I discount BlueTooth at the present as I still haven't seen an O-gauge product.  Sure makes me wonder why I didn't go with HO and standard control systems!

I'll be taking a close look at the MTH catalogs for my future purchases, hard to justify rewarding Lionel for jerking the rug out!

Yes John, I'm seriously considering HO in my future !  enough is enough already

Alex

On30 would be an easier move. Replace your three rail track and keep all the rest.

Three in our 3 rail club have already made the switch.

Pete

Good idea Pete , you don’t really hear these problems with S or HO gauge , anyone who’s been to the Big E can vouch for that. Standing room only at the Big E , thriving as each year goes by. 

Alex 

Folks,

I wanted to weigh in a bit on this thread as after all I founded Electric RR, and I am still involved with the operations of the Lionel CA office which is closing this year.   I don't believe in my heart that Lionel wants to hurt the hobby in any way, they just have few options going forward with Electric RR.   Lionel owns the entirety of Electric RR, and I do not have a "revert to me" clause.  I sold this entity to Lionel a log time ago to keep it viable after I joined Lionel.  It was a good move for me, and for Lionel, as the solid profits helped keep the CA office expenses down.

Electric RR has been a good run for technology that is 12+ years old.   I hired Ken to run Electric RR 10 or so years ago.  Ken is the lifeblood of the current business, as many of you can attest by interactions with him.  Ken is ready to retire, and is well into his 80's, God bless.  Without Ken, Electric RR is no more.

Electric RR Inventory is almost all zero, and it will take 4-6 months to rebuild.  Restarting is complicated.  Adding to this, my investment in the technology has been nil for years, and the parts obsolescence is a BIG factor.  Much of the electronics need attention to continue to be made, although the core PCBs are still manufacturer-able for the OEMs.    I do have to adjust code for the OEMs at times, which I am sure I will do if asked to keep them on track

I share your disappointment, as founder of Electric RR.  Tough to see it fade away, although it may be that it is revived at some point.   There are tough choices, and I am sure the Lionel management is looking at them.  Eventually, it will sort out and things will be fine.  As they say, when one door closes, 2 more open - you just have to find them!  Your feedback is good, and please continue to enjoy this fine hobby. 

In closing, the nice comments about the products are really heart warming for me, as I really feel connected to the hobby with my small contribution.

Thank you.

Dan Fender posted:

modeltrainsparts posted:

The one change I've noticed that the return labels on my last two orders from ERR indicated the package was from B.G. Technologies of the same Walsh Ave. address. Any explanations?

My most recent order of an ERR item (back in early March) was also shipped from B.G. Technologies and the same name appeared on the transaction on my Paypal account.

Electric RR is BG Technologies corporate name.  Same entity.

Santafefan I thank you for weighing in on this. You had a great product there and it will be missed. 

With that being said for the time being it leave me in a different direction in part of my interest as I was thinking of getting proto sound 2-6-6-6 or similar and converting it to TMCC. So that will be put on hold for a while ( I have tmcc/legacy and have no desire or interest going into Proto sound ) . I may keep it in my mind thou and try a conventional E-unit that can handle that type of an engine. ( I know pror sound is basically conventional but It has it's problems with having to charge or make sure the battery is charge.) 

Thanks for all the years you did have a great product for us to use. 

In closing ( yes I know I wishing for a lot here ) I hope Lionel will come out with some form of Legacy that we can install in our older engines to make them TMCC/Legacy friendly. 

SantaFeFan posted:

Folks,

I wanted to weigh in a bit on this thread as after all I founded Electric RR, and I am still involved with the operations of the Lionel CA office which is closing this year.   I don't believe in my heart that Lionel wants to hurt the hobby in any way, they just have few options going forward with Electric RR.   Lionel owns the entirety of Electric RR, and I do not have a "revert to me" clause.  I sold this entity to Lionel a log time ago to keep it viable after I joined Lionel.  It was a good move for me, and for Lionel, as the solid profits helped keep the CA office expenses down.

Electric RR has been a good run for technology that is 12+ years old.   I hired Ken to run Electric RR 10 or so years ago.  Ken is the lifeblood of the current business, as many of you can attest by interactions with him.  Ken is ready to retire, and is well into his 80's, God bless.  Without Ken, Electric RR is no more.

Electric RR Inventory is almost all zero, and it will take 4-6 months to rebuild.  Restarting is complicated.  Adding to this, my investment in the technology has been nil for years, and the parts obsolescence is a BIG factor.  Much of the electronics need attention to continue to be made, although the core PCBs are still manufacturer-able for the OEMs.    I do have to adjust code for the OEMs at times, which I am sure I will do if asked to keep them on track

I share your disappointment, as founder of Electric RR.  Tough to see it fade away, although it may be that it is revived at some point.   There are tough choices, and I am sure the Lionel management is looking at them.  Eventually, it will sort out and things will be fine.  As they say, when one door closes, 2 more open - you just have to find them!  Your feedback is good, and please continue to enjoy this fine hobby. 

In closing, the nice comments about the products are really heart warming for me, as I really feel connected to the hobby with my small contribution.

Thank you.

Jon,

"I don't believe in my heart that Lionel wants to hurt the hobby in any way, they just have few options going forward" Please, there needs to be some sort of upward and downward compatibility in product line....3 control systems and the top of the line ??? legacy remote can't run them all?

I've really had enough! The parts situation... The last lionel product was bought at York!

Jon,

Thanks for weighing in and everything you and your team have done for the TMCC conversion side of this hobby as well as product innovation and development at Lionel.  You mentioned ERR inventory nearly at zero.  I ordered some ERR products today off the web site.  My order went through, but will it get filled?  Will you and your team continue to work at Lionel?  Thanks again.  

Dave

Notch 6 posted:

It was announced Friday morning that as of May of 2018, Lionel plans to cease operations of The Electric Railroad Company, effectively ending the market for TMCC upgrade kits. Some details were shared as to why the decision was made, the overwhelming reason being the very small contribution that ERR provides to the bottom line of Lionel. 

While I am all for the financial health and well being of Lionel, I feel like this move ends nearly twenty eight years of open source sharing by Lionel to allow the TMCC platform into ALL brands of O gauge trains regardless of age or manufacturer. Lionel has stated that they will continue to supply TMCC boards directly to Atlas and 3rd Rail, but it appears that all direct to consumer sale of boards for upgrades is ending. 

This afternoon I wrote the following as part of an email to Howard Hitchcock;

"I agree that the ERR line could and should shrink significantly. I would hope though that there would be an option that the boards that will be supplied to Atlas and 3rd Rail could still be retailed to consumers. I have long been a supporter of the TMCC / Legacy system and every engine that runs on my layout is TMCC equipped. The loss of ERR leaves many of us with a tough decision to face as we decide to either adopt MTH DCS in order to upgrade or start gutting other locomotives to salvage electronics. 

Again, I understand what ever decision is made will need to be financially sound, but I hope you will strongly consider leaving us an option to upgrade to basic TMCC control."

 

I would like to publicly advocate for Lionel to consider either retaining a small part of the ERR line that would allow for core TMCC upgrades to be accomplished or as an alternative to make the boards that are being supplied to Atlas and 3rd Rail available for purchase through Lionel service. While the second option is less user friendly as the boards are production boards and will require soldering, it still leaves us at least an option to upgrade. 

If you care about this matter, I strongly encourage you to write a thoughtful email and send it to talktous@lionel.com

Thank you for reading and for writing to Lionel if you so choose. 

All the best,

Derek 

It seems that the source of buying the boards has merely shifted from ERR (Lionel)  to Atlas and 3rd rail. Interesting to see if these companies will now sell these ERR products to the individual users?????  Also Will Lionel offer any option to buy their Legacy Boards?

L.I.TRAIN posted:

It seems that the source of buying the boards has merely shifted from ERR (Lionel)  to Atlas and 3rd rail. Interesting to see if these companies will now sell these ERR products to the individual users?????

You make that assertion as if those companies are licensed to sell the boards?  Are they?

Lionel agreed to sell them boards to include in their engines as sold, not to be vendors for the boards themselves (at least "way back when"). 

Now, if Lionel was to say it is OK for them to sell these boards, that may be a great solutuon (and they are willing to - but why would they necessarily want that hassle)?  For them it may also be better if you may buy an engine instead of just a board.

Dave45681 posted:

robmcc posted:

Wow. That's terrible. It's frustrating enough there's hardly any other aftermarket TMCC/RS boards out there. If Lionel wants to blame poor profits on their decision, my question is what did they do to help support ERR? The product line, although very good, has pretty much stayed the same since ERR came to be. For example, the 'SD' sound board is fairly generic, based on SD50 sounds, I believe. I've been wanting to upgrade my KCC SD75 sound for years, but kept putting it off because I was hoping for something with a more accurate horn. I might have to pull the trigger now and make due. Maybe adding some new product would have helped. Who knows......

Rob, I'm not trying to pick on you here, but your points show how often we fall into the "don't know what you've got until it's gone" scenario.

In the past, you were worried about the offerings not being as specific as you would like.

Well, Lionel says no problem, we will just stop offering them all together.  And now the first option looks a lot better, even if the horn wasn't quite right.

As much as die hard hobbyists may have had a use for specific sound sets for different engines, I have a feeling the market is small enough for upgrades, making more specific ones available might have made it even less financially feasible for them to offer.

-Dave

Dave, I guess my point was I shouldn't have to settle on the "first option" because Lionel is now forcing my hand and it's my pretty much my ONLY option. Maybe there isn't a huge market for upgrades, but if there was a wider range of options available, who's to say what the potential could be?  I've always wished there was a programmable Railsounds board available, like ProtoSound.  That way you could use a generic board with specific sound files. If MTH is able to do it, why can't Lionel? 

Landsteiner posted:

" Perhaps that guy who stated MTH has been noticeably unfriendly towards upgrades can tell us what he is talking about  as I am always eager to learn."

(1) MTH initially did not want to make PS2 upgrades available in 2000-2002 and (2) MTH has never allowed third parties to develop upgrades. In contrast,  Lionel allowed Mike Reagan, Lou Kovach,  Jon Zahornacky and others to develop various upgrades, boards and accessories for TMCC from the beginning,  20-25 years ago. 

Furthermore, Lionel has opened their system so if someone wants to clone TMCC or Legacy, they are free to do so without threat of legal action.  MTH has, for almost 20 years taken the exact opposite approach.  This is not about critiquing MTH, but pointing out  that Lionel's policies have served them well, and this change to a more MTH-like approach is a bad decision for hobbyists, and potentially for Lionel.

Didn't mean to make this a lateral arabesque into MTH policies. But the contrast since 1995 or so has been striking.

If Lionel allows someone else to make TMCC upgrades, or changes their mind due to public opinion, this issue may turn out to be a tempest in a teapot.

That said, this is an unwise decision.  Be interesting to know whether the sale between Jon Z. and Lionel allows Electric RR intellectual property to revert to Jon if Lionel abandons production.  That's a frequent aspect of such contracts when intellectual property is involved.  Jon could then reopen Electric RR or sell the rights to it to someone else, if that's the case.  One can hope .  We'll see, no doubt.

 

This is not really complete.  It is one thing to make a decision at the beginning of a new product (PS-2) to decide not to make upgrade kits for old products.  PS-2 just was released. MTH reversed that decision, but they still made their product backwards compatible for PS-2.  The open versus closed is really a different decision not a upgrade friendly or not friendly decision.  Train America was still using Lionel R2LC and Rail Sound boards.  All they made different was the mother board and motor drive with cruise.  Things not patent by Lionel.  Lionel benefited from selling parts to support, just like they do with Atlas or 3rd Rail.  The auxiliary stuff like smoke and such were new products that had nothing to do with Lionel allowing.  They did not own the tech.  Jon's stuff was new but still used Lionel R2LC, and of course it evolved into Lionel product once they bought ERR. 

You might say Lionel's policy may not have served them well.  Their approach to product and operating systems have much greater cost to support with parts, service and technical documentation then MTH's approach.  You get more diversity of product and feature, but it is costly to support.  Time will tell how this all works out. 

But your statement about MTH not upgrade friendly is really not true.  MTH could have given it up after several years allowing PS-1 to be converted for original owners. Instead they found it to be a good profit line though small margin that allows folks to convert Brass, Other OEM engines and the still around PS-1 to the very latest MTH System...PS-3.  Include getting the latest PS-3 sound files.

Lionel never really allowed any new tech to become upgrade tech.  They just let the old tech be used.  We never got better then RS 5 and the R2LC, directional lighting and one feature tech of the 90s.  Jon's back EMF cruise control was his tech.   Sure, they could have denied use.  But that was the upgrade desire.  G

This thread has certainly fueled a frenetic feeding frenzy of disappointment and disillusionment with Lionel LLC., but might I add, "thank you Jon for how you've contributed to our enjoyment of our 3-rail hobby. Thanks too for adding to this thread your thoughtful and sage philosophy, " As they say, when one door closes, 2 more open - you just have to find them!  .. and please continue to enjoy this fine hobby."

For some of us it'll free up otherwise spent $$ resources to spend on oter aspects of this hobby. And to those folks here who are more deeply involved with working on ERR conversions and been so dedicated to helping other 3-railers "improve" their engines this unexpected turn of events likely has positives for you too.  Ken, from ERR will now have the retirement he so justly has earned and deserves; GJG, instead of devoting so much time to fixing the engines of others, you might now have more time to work on your own soon to be started dream layout; and Alex M, besides you also having additional time to work on yourown layout, you'll have added time to devote to creating additional magnificent structures for this board's members if you wish to do so. With the Almighty's blessings this surprising occurence will hopefully work out positively for all involved.

SantaFeFan posted:

Folks,

I wanted to weigh in a bit on this thread as after all I founded Electric RR, and I am still involved with the operations of the Lionel CA office which is closing this year.   I don't believe in my heart that Lionel wants to hurt the hobby in any way, they just have few options going forward with Electric RR.   Lionel owns the entirety of Electric RR, and I do not have a "revert to me" clause.  I sold this entity to Lionel a log time ago to keep it viable after I joined Lionel.  It was a good move for me, and for Lionel, as the solid profits helped keep the CA office expenses down.

Electric RR has been a good run for technology that is 12+ years old.   I hired Ken to run Electric RR 10 or so years ago.  Ken is the lifeblood of the current business, as many of you can attest by interactions with him.  Ken is ready to retire, and is well into his 80's, God bless.  Without Ken, Electric RR is no more.

Electric RR Inventory is almost all zero, and it will take 4-6 months to rebuild.  Restarting is complicated.  Adding to this, my investment in the technology has been nil for years, and the parts obsolescence is a BIG factor.  Much of the electronics need attention to continue to be made, although the core PCBs are still manufacturer-able for the OEMs.    I do have to adjust code for the OEMs at times, which I am sure I will do if asked to keep them on track

I share your disappointment, as founder of Electric RR.  Tough to see it fade away, although it may be that it is revived at some point.   There are tough choices, and I am sure the Lionel management is looking at them.  Eventually, it will sort out and things will be fine.  As they say, when one door closes, 2 more open - you just have to find them!  Your feedback is good, and please continue to enjoy this fine hobby. 

In closing, the nice comments about the products are really heart warming for me, as I really feel connected to the hobby with my small contribution.

Thank you.

I can appreciate that Ken wants to retire, I wish him all the best. But this is the same story we all heard when Weaver folded with minimal warning, namely that the key person was "too old and the time seemed right".

The bigger problem is that all of the manufacturers seem to be employing people who have already retired from "real life" , and have limited time to work. That isn't their fault, it's the fault of some of the younger people in our hobby.

I majored in Electrical Engineering in college 20 + years ago, and I would have leaped at the opportunity to work even part time at something like this. It would have helped me learn my craft, and made some money to boot, while allowing me to study and "do trains" at the same time.

Apparently, they're doing it in other scales, because the people that make DCC seem to be thriving. I also hear that TMCC, DCC, and DCS aren't compatible, and that may be true with the technology we have now, but somebody could invent a way to make them work together. MTH is already making trains that can run on either DCS or DCC, and you can run TMCC with a DCS handheld, so let's get on the band wagon.

For a gadgeteer, this could be a dream job. You could get to see how things work in multiple scales, and even come up with ways to use them outside the model railroad world, and vice-versa. One of us already uploaded a video this morning of a new system. That's the way to go.

L.I. Train,

The thought of Atlas and 3rd Rail selling (or even buying/taking over) the ERR boards is a very good one. Very interesting thoughts, I hope you are on to something here!! I too certainly hope the ERR products can be continued in some way. This announcement is a huge disappointment to many in the hobby and I think Lionel may be hurting themselves in the long run.

robmcc posted:

Dave, I guess my point was I shouldn't have to settle on the "first option" because Lionel is now forcing my hand and it's my pretty much my ONLY option. Maybe there isn't a huge market for upgrades, but if there was a wider range of options available, who's to say what the potential could be?  I've always wished there was a programmable Railsounds board available, like ProtoSound.  That way you could use a generic board with specific sound files. If MTH is able to do it, why can't Lionel? 

My guess would involve the way things have evolved over the years.

Back when TMCC was developed, there was likely not a highly feasible method to allow user programming of chips like was done for DCS/Proto2 (and now of course Proto3) many years later.

Legacy was based on TMCC, even if quite a bit more advanced.  I am sure if they had re-engineered things to also have user programmable chips for sounds, it would have ended up much more complex and also much more expensive.  They (rightfully so, IMO) prioritized the new controller working properly with old trains, and also the new trains having basic functionality (less some of the more advanced features) with the old controller.  That was no simple task, I am sure, all while keeping the new system at a price point that would work.

I don't think that will happen unless Lionel sells it to them and I doubt if they will.

GGG posted:

Landsteiner posted:

I do hope that the decision to close Electric RR is not the final word.  Some opportunity to upgrade conventional/older locomotives to TMCC (or perhaps LionChief+) is essential to a small proportion of consumers and to Lionel’s image as the leader in the field.

 

Lionel’s main competition,  MTH, has been noticeably unfriendly to upgrades over the years,  and this has helped cement Lionel’s role as the primary innovator in the industry.  Completely eliminating TMCC upgrades without a possibility of upgrading to LionChiefPlus for command capability would be a marketing gift to their main competition.

This is a false statement. MTH "unfriendly to upgrades???.  Some how this makes Lionel and innovator???  ERR was Jon's brain child and Lionel bought him out.

As far as MTH, they make and sell upgrade kits.  They made PS-2 steam and diesel kits, even made a slave kit to upgrade their ABA.  They made conversion kits to repair their first generation PS-2 5V board, ensuring the second generation PS-2 3V was backward compatible, they then put in the effort to redo all the sound files for PS-2 5V boards to support it.

When parts became obsolete they transitioned to PS-3 and created the PS-3 upgrade kits, they also made the PS-32 to replace the PS-2 3V and 5V boards.

They have always been backwards compatible.  Why do you always stir the pot and cast MTH in a negative view.

The was about Lionel not MTH.  Frankly read the tea leaves.  Who is the only manufacture that does not repair their own trains because of employee cuts?  Now selling a product is cut?  G

I agree, I've never had trouble locating or ordering any PS2 or PS3 upgrade kit. MTH has been very friendly when it comes to upgrade kits, they even offered PS1 upgrade kits before 2000 as I understand. I can call, email, or even order online and members of their club get a discount on the kits.

G, I think that some posters equate MTH to the cause of cancer and Lionel as the only ones who help cure it.  I like them both, but Lionel has been a hard pill swallow lately with some of the recent woes in products and now this. As you have posted before, working on newer legacy stuff is getting harder and number of people who have access to technical information and the know how are limited.

Lionel simply doesn't offer anything upgrade wise anymore. It's buy new and ship it somewhere else for service after the warranty period is done.

I'm sad to see the TMCC upgrades go and this maybe the final straw for me. I have about 8 engine I've done TMCC upgrades in and now I'm considering converting all of them to DCS and sell the removed TMCC upgrades kits in a few years to some desperate TMCC diehards.

I really hope Lionel reconsiders this decision, ERR upgrades were easy to perform and included great instructions for just about any project.

"I agree that the ERR line could and should shrink significantly. I would hope though that there would be an option that the boards that will be supplied to Atlas and 3rd Rail could still be retailed to consumers. I have long been a supporter of the TMCC / Legacy system and every engine that runs on my layout is TMCC equipped. The loss of ERR leaves many of us with a tough decision to face as we decide to either adopt MTH DCS in order to upgrade or start gutting other locomotives to salvage electronics. 

Ken is a single man operation. He answers phone calls, takes orders, programs and tests every unit that is sent out and puts together all the kits that we enjoy. Every one of the sound cards he programs, all the TMCC boards he programs including the Min II and the he tests everyone. He is a great individual and a huge asset to the hobby and will be surely missed. I don't think Lionel has any idea how much he does nor has anyone that can do what he does so Ken enjoy your retirement!

Dave45681 posted:

s for certain items means that the Guggenheim people are holding the purse strings and dictating how things like this go, rather than allowing things like this that build good will from hobbyists to continue.

The bottom line is this company needs another interested owner like Richard Kughn in charge right now, not a financial company that couldn't care less if they are making model trains vs. pencils or paper plates.

-Dave

Guggenheim no longer owns Lionel for over a year.  One of the partners from Guggenheim took control of Lionel, and the bean counting began.   The loss of 20 people from the Lionel employee roster was a result.  So was the sale of the archives.  

This decision really puts the screws to those of us who purchase high quality older stuff with the intention to upgrade them, especially if they don't have flywheels and therefore can't be PS3-2'd.  Very disappointing!

No market for upgrade packages?

No one will then step up and offer a similar product , unless Fred Seversen get's back in the game with upgrade electronics.  That's where it all began anyway.

BMT-Express posted:

Dave45681 posted:

s for certain items means that the Guggenheim people are holding the purse strings and dictating how things like this go, rather than allowing things like this that build good will from hobbyists to continue.

The bottom line is this company needs another interested owner like Richard Kughn in charge right now, not a financial company that couldn't care less if they are making model trains vs. pencils or paper plates.

-Dave

Guggenheim no longer owns Lionel for over a year.  One of the partners from Guggenheim took control of Lionel, and the bean counting began.   The loss of 20 people from the Lionel employee roster was a result.  So was the sale of the archives.  

Want the new owner to be interested. Cancel, all orders and do not buy any new product....

This deals a serious blow to all of us who have invested in Lionel products for the past 60 plus years. I know, don't tell me what you have done for the past ownership of Lionel, tell me what you will do for the next 10 years. The new ownership of Lionel hasn't been there for the past sales, they just want to make a profit in the future.

Well, I and many of the others here have several years of dollars to spend and now must make a decision on where that will be. Lionel doesn't look like a good investment since they are going away from an area that has served as a backbone for the revival of this aspect of the model train industry. Without TMCC, Legacy (glorified TMCC) would not have made it. 

I would love to know what their marketing plans are based on as they look at the next 10 years, where they can recover the investment in the Lionel line. This will seriously hurt the purchase of future Lionel products by the base of the market who have been in Lionel for years. Do they think that there are a lot of young kids out there purchasing those $2000 locomotives as their first train? Do they think they can hang their hat on the sale of LionChief plus in $500 ready-to-run kits? Maybe they think we will just overlook this and buy new Legacy products that they may not support in a few years.

BMT-Express posted:

Dave45681 posted:

s for certain items means that the Guggenheim people are holding the purse strings and dictating how things like this go, rather than allowing things like this that build good will from hobbyists to continue.

The bottom line is this company needs another interested owner like Richard Kughn in charge right now, not a financial company that couldn't care less if they are making model trains vs. pencils or paper plates.

-Dave

Guggenheim no longer owns Lionel for over a year.  One of the partners from Guggenheim took control of Lionel, and the bean counting began.   The loss of 20 people from the Lionel employee roster was a result.  So was the sale of the archives.  

Really, and who might that be....???

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I was needless to say, bummed out by hearing this news.  I will doubtless have to discontinue my Super-Chuffer and Chuff-Generator as not having TMCC upgrades makes them kinda' moot.  I will obviously be emphasizing my PS/3 upgrade business since that's now the only command/control upgrade path it would appear.  I discount BlueTooth at the present as I still haven't seen an O-gauge product.  Sure makes me wonder why I didn't go with HO and standard control systems!

I'll be taking a close look at the MTH catalogs for my future purchases, hard to justify rewarding Lionel for jerking the rug out!

Well, we've certainly seen MTH pull the rug out multiple times over the past 20 years and I'm not about to reward MTH for their "jerking" over the years.  My MTH memories live long and strong.

OTOH, I'm probably not going to buy much more Lionel, if any, beyond what I've ordered, since the decision to close ERR, if done, is - at best - completely incomprehensible to all of us customers and toy train addicted maniacs.

SMH.

BMT-Express posted:

Dave45681 posted:

s for certain items means that the Guggenheim people are holding the purse strings and dictating how things like this go, rather than allowing things like this that build good will from hobbyists to continue.

The bottom line is this company needs another interested owner like Richard Kughn in charge right now, not a financial company that couldn't care less if they are making model trains vs. pencils or paper plates.

-Dave

Guggenheim no longer owns Lionel for over a year.  One of the partners from Guggenheim took control of Lionel, and the bean counting began.   The loss of 20 people from the Lionel employee roster was a result.  So was the sale of the archives.  

It would be really cool to have a reputable reference for this.  Please cite a WSJ article or something similar.

Thanks.

Thomps, what MTH  jerking are you talking about?  I may have missed something and was hoping you could point it out.  I am very curious what they pulled the rug on.  

To me this is the classic big company buys small company and kills it. It is also an example of the big company just wanting to sell new product and doesn’t understand the word service. It’s too bad the big boys can’t figure out how to provide service and make a profit doing it. This is how large corporate America runs, notice I didn’t say works. 

I've read everyone's opinions.  The one that sticks out as most relevant is the one person with inside understanding of both the technology and of Lionel.  I am referring, of course,  to Jon Z.  He is optimistic that something will be worked out somehow by someone to make command upgrades available.  If Lionel chooses not to make them available, they would be nuts to not let other people do so. Since I don't think they are nuts, that's one possibility.

Thus I'll delay my "sky is falling" insurance purchase,  for at least a month or two.  Chicken Little has left the train show, at least for the moment .  

Good point.  My bet is the product will not go away.  Time will tell all.  If the product was a dog, anything could happen.  It is far from being a dog and I am sure someone will keep things going.

So far this is a PR disaster. 

Nick

Is there an opportunity for a train store that is currently selling/installing ERR products to take over the product line (say, just as an example, an outfit like Henning's Trains)? I'm thinking they could, if they chose, even use the same supplier that ERR has been using to assemble and package the boards. Also, they might be able to get a license from Lionel to produce the ERR RailSounds boards.

For many years, before ERR, both TAS Studios and Digital Dynamics produced aftermarket TMCC products, including RailSounds boards, under license from Lionel (TAS also produced OEM boards for Atlas and 3rd Rail). This would be the same business model, and it would seem feasible for it to be done again by a train store that is already dealing with the ERR product line and that has experience producing and selling its own products.

Personally, I posted on how much upgrading my 6 remaining beloved engines to PS3 would be as an average cost. At present I have approximately 2200.00 on Lionel items pre-order which, (I know its not my Dealers fault, and I will feel for him, really), but Monday morning I will be canceling those orders and use the funds to have my remaining engines upgraded to PS3. Engines that mean a lot to me but have had boards that went bad, or PS1 engines that were special gifts. 

This, with so much Lionel product problems, it may also be for the best. I remember decades ago when Lionel listened to consumers, and their service, and service centers were the pride of the Lionel Corp. and their buyers, bar non.

"Well, we've certainly seen MTH pull the rug out multiple times over the past 20 years.."

I've had DCS since it first came out 16 years ago, and I'm not missing any rugs.  Can you elaborate?  Everything I bought with an MTH brand is still fully functional, and runs under its very latest offering.

GGG posted:

Landsteiner posted:

I do hope that the decision to close Electric RR is not the final word.  Some opportunity to upgrade conventional/older locomotives to TMCC (or perhaps LionChief+) is essential to a small proportion of consumers and to Lionel’s image as the leader in the field.

 

Lionel’s main competition,  MTH, has been noticeably unfriendly to upgrades over the years,  and this has helped cement Lionel’s role as the primary innovator in the industry.  Completely eliminating TMCC upgrades without a possibility of upgrading to LionChiefPlus for command capability would be a marketing gift to their main competition.

This is a false statement. MTH "unfriendly to upgrades???.  Some how this makes Lionel and innovator???  ERR was Jon's brain child and Lionel bought him out.

As far as MTH, they make and sell upgrade kits.  They made PS-2 steam and diesel kits, even made a slave kit to upgrade their ABA.  They made conversion kits to repair their first generation PS-2 5V board, ensuring the second generation PS-2 3V was backward compatible, they then put in the effort to redo all the sound files for PS-2 5V boards to support it.

When parts became obsolete they transitioned to PS-3 and created the PS-3 upgrade kits, they also made the PS-32 to replace the PS-2 3V and 5V boards.

They have always been backwards compatible.  Why do you always stir the pot and cast MTH in a negative view.

The was about Lionel not MTH.  Frankly read the tea leaves.  Who is the only manufacture that does not repair their own trains because of employee cuts?  Now selling a product is cut?  G

So who can buy PS3 upgrade kits? Are they available for public purchase, or for purchase only by anointed MTH repair techs? 

Another dismal outcome of Lionel's decision to cease ERR operations and no longer offer tmmc replacement boards is what effect it will have on future 3rd Rail Sunset Models sales and offerings? While Lionel Legacy engines are pricey, at least they'll be able to continue being serviced when the need arises but when an almost equally high priced TMCC 3rd Rail Sunset engine fails, what then? What recourse will their be for its owner? To relegate that engine to the role of an expensive shelf queen or delicate but pricey doorstop?  So, this action doesn't seem to forbode well for 3rd Rail fans either! Might this decision mark the beginning of the end for that relatively small company's engine manufacturing efforts???

I wonder when or even if anyone from 3rd Rail Sunset Models will chime in on this topic and what they might say about this revelation?

Nick12DMC posted:

So far this is a PR disaster. 

Nick

A very serious PR disaster! I agree.............

ogaugeguy posted:

Another dismal outcome of Lionel's decision to cease ERR operations and no longer offer tmmc replacement boards is what effect it will have on future 3rd Rail sales and offerings? While Lionel Legacy engines are pricey, at least they'll be able to continue being serviced when the need arises but when an almost equally high priced TMCC 3rd Rail engine fails, what then? What recourse will their be for its owner? To relegate that engine to the role of an expensive shelf queen or delicate but pricey doorstop?  So, this action doesn't seem to forbode well for 3rd Rail fans either! Might this decision mark the beginning of the end for that rlatively small company???

Kenn,

Exactly, and as others have stated. One must wonder about future support of other products. It sort on makes me think legacy...

this is exactly why Open Source systems such as the NMRA standard DCC are so much better to use.    One mfg deciding to leave the market causes a ripple, but not a disaster.     I could name at least 6 mfg of loco control boards and 4-5 of throttle/control systems for DCC and I am not in the market, so my information is not up  to date.    For DCS and TMCC there appears to be only on source for each and not much option for general purchase.

"So who can buy PS3 upgrade kits? Are they available for public purchase"

YES!  PS2 kits have been available since 2004 and PS3 since shortly after it was released.

Maybe Warren Buffet will buy Lionel and save the day? He likes trains and also likes to keep companies and make them profitable instead of taking all their money and assets and running. See BNSF. Might also help Lionel start offering more BNSF product!! 

I am very unhappy with this decision.  I operate command control for the most part both TMCC/Legacy but I have about 6 older Lionel AC motor locomotives that I was slowly converting.  I was adding Legacy but if this is the way LIONEL supports the product count me out.  Liked the ERR kits because they were an easy convert.  Anyway poor business decision, the better one would have been to add Legacy kits.  No more Legacy for me.

Just a few observations from this thread:

Will these actions spawn the development of an EOB v2?

Would like to hear from forum member NY

Would not want to be an L dealer reading about cancelled orders/lost $

My two cents

First I am not really that great on electronic but thanks to all electrical wizards (gurus) I have been able to upgrade and fix most of my own stuff.  My plan was first build the lay and then go through all my stuff and see what I want to up grade, this news throw a monkey wrench. I hope this all plays out and we can still are able to upgrade our stuff.

I do not write but I did write to Lionel asking them to keep ERR alive. I think we need to start a write campaign to Lionel on this issue.

One point nobody has mentioned is that Lionel recently relaxed its rules about purchasing almost all PCB’s, including Legacy system components. It was announced with little fanfare as a service dept news post on the dealer site. So, you can purchase the components necessary for upgrades, but you have to know what to order and know what you are doing. So upgrades aren’t going to be as easy for the people who need all the hand holding and support. It can be done, but there won’t be any nice kits for the casual amateur. 

prrjim posted:

this is exactly why Open Source systems such as the NMRA standard DCC are so much better to use.    One mfg deciding to leave the market causes a ripple, but not a disaster.     I could name at least 6 mfg of loco control boards and 4-5 of throttle/control systems for DCC and I am not in the market, so my information is not up  to date.    For DCS and TMCC there appears to be only on source for each and not much option for general purchase.

I agree with the open source and standards. Seems to be a good thing for all involved. I have been wanting to try DCC for several years now, maybe I will think a little more seriously about that. I am not current on all the DCC product available, but they have come out with some O gauge capable boards and their sounds are really improving as well. I believe they are also getting into wifi and apps for control if you happen to like that. I will get around to trying DCC one of these days.

GregR posted:

One point nobody has mentioned is that Lionel recently relaxed its rules about purchasing almost all PCB’s, including Legacy system components. It was announced with little fanfare as a service dept news post on the dealer site. So, you can purchase the components necessary for upgrades, but you have to know what to order and know what you are doing. So upgrades aren’t going to be as easy for the people who need all the hand holding and support. It can be done, but there won’t be any nice kits for the casual amateur. 

I think many have mentioned the term EASY upgrade. That is a BIG point.

Several years ago, I bought a TMCC loco that really didn't respond all that well to conventional control, so I bit the bullet and bought TMCC.  Since then I purchased one Legacy loco and had two conventional locos upgraded w/ERR boards when their electronics gave out.  I was betting that TMCC would receive continued support.

I apparently lost the bet.

Therefore, when the next loco fails, I will begin the process of stripping all control systems out of the engines.  They will be replaced with direct wiring and/or a bridge rectifier, and the layout will revert to conventional control.  Or perhaps I'll use DC.

Either way, I will get off the merry-go-'round.  I should have known better at the outset than to succumb to novelitis.  If I lose smoke units and sound, so be it--I started out without those.

Lionel has been doing its best to undermine my loyalty to it for years.  I think they have finally succeeded.  Fortunately, I have all I'll ever need, and the few things I want still are old news.

And then there is that urge I have to collect old AHM 2R O scale . . . .  No control problems there!

"I was betting that TMCC would receive continued support.

I apparently lost the bet."

TMCC support is now Legacy support. The system, as you no doubt know, is backward compatible. As noted by GregR above, Lionel is now making available Legacy components for anyone with the knowledge and ability to do an install. I'm sure there will be individuals who have that knowledge and ability.

20+ years ago I sent MTH PS1 locos to Ed at Digital Dynamics and others sent locos to Mike Reagan at Train America, and they did TMCC installs when Lionel wasn't selling TMCC upgrades. 

Jon Z. at Electric RR soon became the only supplier of TMCC equipment for after market upgrades. 

I'm sure someone will fill this gap in 2018 or 2019.  The market abhors a vacuum. I wouldn't pay off that bet just yet . 

The rush to judgment and sad feelings of abandonment seem awfully early to me.  And the glee some have shown in this proof of Lionel's lack of care is rather bizarre.  I sympathize with the pain, but think it's entirely unnecessary, self-inflicted and wildly premature.

Well, there ya go. Bean counters stick it to the rest of us. This is a very disappointing decision on the part of Lionel. I went with TMCC/Legacy because I like the ease of use and consistent operation.

Much can be said about the diversion into lower cost operating systems ahem "LIONCHIEF", that are totally incompatible with TMCC/Legacy. Again another way to stick it to your long time customers. Guess it's about time to cash out and sell off my trains. What an unmitigated disappointment. This also begs the question about Atlas. What will they be doing in light of this decision. Also what about Command Control Switch upgrades? Will they still be available.

Folks,

I wanted to weigh in a bit on this thread as after all I founded Electric RR, and I am still involved with the operations of the Lionel CA office which is closing this year.   I don't believe in my heart that Lionel wants to hurt the hobby in any way, they just have few options going forward with Electric RR.   Lionel owns the entirety of Electric RR, and I do not have a "revert to me" clause.  I sold this entity to Lionel a log time ago to keep it viable after I joined Lionel.  It was a good move for me, and for Lionel, as the solid profits helped keep the CA office expenses down.

Electric RR has been a good run for technology that is 12+ years old.   I hired Ken to run Electric RR 10 or so years ago.  Ken is the lifeblood of the current business, as many of you can attest by interactions with him.  Ken is ready to retire, and is well into his 80's, God bless.  Without Ken, Electric RR is no more.

Electric RR Inventory is almost all zero, and it will take 4-6 months to rebuild.  Restarting is complicated.  Adding to this, my investment in the technology has been nil for years, and the parts obsolescence is a BIG factor.  Much of the electronics need attention to continue to be made, although the core PCBs are still manufacturer-able for the OEMs.    I do have to adjust code for the OEMs at times, which I am sure I will do if asked to keep them on track

I share your disappointment, as founder of Electric RR.  Tough to see it fade away, although it may be that it is revived at some point.   There are tough choices, and I am sure the Lionel management is looking at them.  Eventually, it will sort out and things will be fine.  As they say, when one door closes, 2 more open - you just have to find them!  Your feedback is good, and please continue to enjoy this fine hobby. 

In closing, the nice comments about the products are really heart warming for me, as I really feel connected to the hobby with my small contribution.

Thank you.

jon

Thank you Jon for ERR, great products, by the way I am Kens' biggest fan.

Ray

Gregr, MTH tech guys are not anointed.  They spend time and money to go to the MTH school and get trained.   Anyone can buy MTH upgrade kits.  Being the smart guy you are,  you would know that answer.   

Kerrigan posted:

No market for upgrade packages?

No one will then step up and offer a similar product , unless Fred Seversen get's back in the game with upgrade electronics.  That's where it all began anyway.

I agree as QSI did at one time make the QS3000 board that made a PS1 board TMCC compatible. Several years ago QSI advertised a new board that would work with DCC, DCS & TMCC...but it never came out. QSI is supposedly developing a new Titan O & G scale board...perhaps with enough interest it could be DCC, DCS & TMCC compatible? 

palallin posted:

 

Therefore, when the next loco fails, I will begin the process of stripping all control systems out of the engines.  They will be replaced with direct wiring and/or a bridge rectifier, and the layout will revert to conventional control. 

 

I'm beginning to be glad about the fact I never bit the TMCC or DCS bullet and still solely run conventional. That stated,  I'll miss ERR.  I bought and installed their sound cards in two of my engines (which as my daughter put it "brought them to life") and modified both of them to have remote couplers which are controlled by this inexpensive gadget:

https://www.electricalstore.or...-receiver-momentary/

I'm pretty confident all those now "old school" electrical add ons will hold up, given my two MTH 1990s era PS1 engines (with their original  PSA routines) are still going strong. 

I did look at the BlueRail Trains website and their system looks interesting.  At this time, it isn't capable of controlling AC motored engines (unless they or someone else is working on some sort of inverter circuit).  It also would also render any MTH PS1 engines it is installed into becoming silent -unless someone has or is working to figure out if  there is a surgical work around on those old MTH boards that allows one to keep audio functionality while bypassing the DCRU circuitry.   

A simple approach to the latter would seemingly be to disconnect the motor from the DCRU and connect it to the BlueRail unit.   But that assumes the lack of a motor load on the DCRU wouldn't cause problems with the rest of the PS1 circuitry, which I suspect it would.  

At least at first glance, this is sad news. I currently have 4 engines "scheduled" to receive ERR upgrades. Now they're sidelined, apparently, unless and until something else comes along. And who knows when, or if, that will ever happen. It's a very upsetting development.

As others have noted, I wonder as well where this leaves Atlas O and 3rd Rail. It would seem that this news is pretty devastating to them.

breezinup posted:

As others have noted, I wonder as well where this leaves Atlas O and 3rd Rail. It would seem that this news is pretty devastating to them.

The boards will still be available to them per Dave.  This, as of now, affects the consumer only not the other manufacturers that use TMCC boards.  Makes you wonder right?  Maybe the solution is to order through them?

I did send a note to Lionel asking them to reconsider their decision. I am afraid that it will be conversion to postwar for me. Its the best

I am not "in the loop" so could someone explain what is going on with TMCC and causing some operators to revert back to conventional control? I have a small layout with some Legacy and TMCC locomotives. Does this even affect me for the future?

Plankowner110 posted:

I am not "in the loop" so could someone explain what is going on with TMCC and causing some operators to revert back to conventional control? I have a small layout with some Legacy and TMCC locomotives. Does this even affect me for the future?

It's called being peeved at a Companies decision to kill off a product. If you have " any conventional lionel engines that you wish to upgrade or any other manufacturers engines you wish to upgrade to TMCC. Then, it will affect you! If you have a older TMCC engine that parts are no longer available. It will affect you.  As, a point many people have converted older MTH PS1 engines to TMCC.  They will be affected.

"Does this even affect me for the future?"

Doubt it very much.

(1) ERR's closing is mainly of interest to folks who want to use TMCC after market boards to control their conventional, PS2/3, or other non-TMCC/Legacy locos.  

(2) Someone, somewhere, somehow will make TMCC/Legacy upgrades available, just as Jon Z. made ERR boards available as Train America and Digital Dynamics closed their TMCC board businesses.

Don't worry, be happy.   There's more heat than light in this thread, in my view. Sound and fury signifying not as much as you might think, to paraphrase Willie S.

Everybody is panicking......there are lots of dealers including myself that will continue to install TMCC and with all of this chatter I am sure Lionel is listening.