Perhaps this announcement will inspire Model Rectifier Corp to complete the planed expansion of the Loco Genie system to O scale. Its wireless command technology with sound, perhaps similar to LionChief.
Perhaps Lionel might be considering making LionChief Plus with Bluetooth available as command upgrades with sound? A more modern technology with modern electronic components, and compatible with smartphones and etc.
Just sent a email to Lionel.
For me I just got back in to O gauge about a year and 1/2 ago. Part of the reason I got back in was due to being able to add board to new and used cars to add electro couplers and car activation now this isn't an option with TMCC/Legacy.
Jim Stefl posted:I think the present Lionel employees are in favor of ERR. We need contact information on the financial owner and the comic Book dude. They make the real decisions.
MartyE posted:Jim Stefl posted:I think the present Lionel employees are in favor of ERR. We need contact information on the financial owner and the comic Book dude. They make the real decisions.
The "Comic Book Dude" hasn't been with Lionel for over 5 years or more.
Hey, if it wasn't for him would I have my cute MTH "Jerry's Comics" building? 
Landsteiner posted:TMCC support is now Legacy support. The system, as you no doubt know, is backward compatible.
More money, more complexity, more to go wrong. Besides, as soon as people go this route, they'll drop Legacy for the Next Great Thing. Nope: once bitten, twice shy. I will not make the mistake of relying on Lionel again.
Josef, you can download the steam & diesel upgrade instructions from the MTH web site. You can also download any sound files from that site. It's as easy as downloading any other programs, except it's also free of charge. You can also download any software to keep any DCS hardware, regardless of vintage, running the latest version of software; also free.
Sound files and software are loadable to the DCS hardware and to locos through the DCS Loader program, also free.
The Loader program has full on-screen step-by-step instructions on how to proceed. There is also a programming manual somewhere on the DCS website.
rvhirailer posted:"...Am I correct in assuming Lionel production numbers have decreased ...."
Attempting to address your comment, the only info I can offer is an excerpt below from Steve of MRMUFFIN'STRAINS in his post today of an announcement made by Lionel's Ryan Kunkel during last Friday's OGR Grandstand meeting.
"Lionel LLC—Ryan Kunkel:
Ryan announced that 2017 was the best year for Lionel in over a decade and thanked everyone for their purchases and their support. He said the factories have stopped asking Lionel for more work as they keep up with the shipping of new products..."
Ken-Oscale posted:Perhaps this announcement will inspire Model Rectifier Corp to complete the planed expansion of the Loco Genie system to O scale. Its wireless command technology with sound, perhaps similar to LionChief.
Perhaps Lionel might be considering making LionChief Plus with Bluetooth available as command upgrades with sound? A more modern technology with modern electronic components, and compatible with smartphones and etc.
Ken, that has no compatibility with the legacy remote?
Ken i like the mrc approach you can run it on any system you have, will be great for those broken down engines
Thoughts I pondered after calling and cancelling pre-orders on Lionel H10 and SW7. If Lionel will still be supplying TMCC systems to Atlas and 3rd Rail, but not to consumers. How will that effect consumers when boards go bad after warranty? They won't be able to replace, and it means more outlay in labor cost and shipping cost to get repaired. Why stop if still producing TMCC systems not make them available and add profits by also including consumers, us as buyers?
I don't understand Lionels decisions, except possible that engines will be of the once they die, hoping new engines will be purchased to replace rather the fixing same. Also it takes many technicians who have upgraded and repaired TMCC systems out of the repair business and we know Lionel is backed-up in accepting out of warranty work.
For me, its any easy decision, don't purchase any new Lionel products, nor Atlas and 3rd rail. Any new engines will only be MTH as well as used engines I have an interest in.
RJR posted:"So who can buy PS3 upgrade kits? Are they available for public purchase"
YES! PS2 kits have been available since 2004 and PS3 since shortly after it was released.
As I assume everyone here knows, PS2 Kits upgrade kits are no longer available. Only upgrade option now is PS3.
Does anyone happen to have names and email contact information for the investor(s) who own Lionel? I wish to send emails to advocate my position on current Lionel leadership.
I have a few locomotives I'd like to upgrade to TMCC because of their small size/lack of interior space. Now I'm thinking that DCC might be the route to take over the long term.
GregR posted:Does anyone happen to have names and email contact information for the investor(s) who own Lionel? I wish to send emails to advocate my position on current Lionel leadership.
agree
The point made about killing the upgrade market to force buyers into purchasing new locomotives makes business sense. It is a PR disaster but I suppose the bean counters have said enough. That being said, the price per new loco just isn't in my wheelhouse. I have several locos I wanted to upgrade to TMCC because the cost was reasonable, it was compatible with my current setup and I could purchase a few boards a year until I finished the fleet. Now it looks like I had better try to secure the boards now or be stuck with some bricks that will forever remain on the shelf. I am not the optimist like Marty, I don't see this product line being picked up given it was a one man show. I am not about to switch to an entire new CC system like DCS either. The single comment I find interesting in all of this is ERR was in the black, marginally, but in the black. Now if it were marginally in the red this makes more sense. I highly doubt killing the upgrade path is going to generate more sales, I expect the opposite will be true.
GregR posted:Does anyone happen to have names and email contact information for the investor(s) who own Lionel? I wish to send emails to advocate my position on current Lionel leadership.
This is an especially bitter pill for me to swallow, as my small club and I run all TMCC, and we especially have been fond of the ERR upgrades. We have several dozen conversions, with another six in the pipeline. I have even been buying NOS locos with the intent of converting them. We run long lashups and the cruise commanders have been super for that. I sincerely hope that someone else is able to provide something similar. It actually may make me personally go to HO and abandon O, it is that serious of a situation for me.
necrails posted:The single comment I find interesting in all of this is ERR was in the black, marginally, but in the black. Now if it were marginally in the red this makes more sense. I highly doubt killing the upgrade path is going to generate more sales, I expect the opposite will be true.
"Marginally" is all relative. Depends on how much salary and your expenses you remove prior to the bottom line. There is the often repeated saying how airlines haven't turned a profit since the Wrights first flight yet the CEO's and other execs seem to do exceedingly well. Even if in the red, how many TMCC/Legacy controllers did these installs sell? And once you have that hook set, maybe your other locos follow with the same operating system?
If there is a new "ERR" hopefully they finally make a TMCC board that just plug into the Proto1 board such as Digital Dynamics did. Most operators I've seen don't need exact miles per hour, they are just running trains in a loop!
I happened to notice in Lionel's 2018 volume 1 catalog that, in the description of the forthcoming LCS CSM2, which is designed to monitor the throw position of DZ-2500 switch machines, it says that a DZ-2500 connection board is available from ERR. I don't use DZ-2500 switch machines, so this doesn't affect me personally and I have no direct knowledge of how it works; but if a connection board is needed to use the CSM2 with DZ-2500 switch machines and that board is supposed to be available from ERR, will folks who have DZ-2500 switch machines actually be able to use the CSM2 with them?
OK so how many have written Lionel to voice their displeasure? I did. Just saying. If you are unhappy about this let your voices be heard.
I am with Marty, I'm more concerned that any future purchase of product if dies (electronics failure) that I now have a self queen. I operate my equipment and will not put money out for something that cannot be operated.
Another disappointed tinkerer here. Yes, Lionel got a response from me also. Bring back ERR!
Bruce
bigdodgetrain posted:GregR posted:Does anyone happen to have names and email contact information for the investor(s) who own Lionel? I wish to send emails to advocate my position on current Lionel leadership.
Guggenheim no longer owns Lionel.
You are barking at the moon.
MartyE posted:OK so how many have written Lionel to voice their displeasure? I did. Just saying. If you are unhappy about this let your voices be heard.
Sent a email yesterday Marty.
Nick
Most of my new locomotive purchases are Lionel Legacy, I have a couple MTH premier engines, but I'm mostly into Lionel. I really don't plan on upgrading any of the postwar Lionel engines that I own.
I do own one Williams SD45 engine in Wisconsin Central. (I only have one Williams Locomotive) I have the Lionel Legacy Wisconsin Central SD45 from Lionel 2018 C1 on order with my dealer. However, I plan on keeping the Williams engine as it was a birthday gift from my family almost a decade ago. I called ERR company this morning and talked with Ken to upgrade my Williams SD45. I have my order placed and secured for the correct electronic boards. I'm glad I made the call, ...I got lucky.
Moving forward, I don't really have any other engines to upgrade. I do think Lionel should consider offering these to consumers again in the future.
Dear Marty Eibeck
Thank you, for the information and keeping this thread nice. I have sent my e-mail to Lionel yesterday in regards to ERR.
I really think that someone from Lionel with some kind of integrity stand up and say something about ERR and if there is a replacement ERR coming. I think that Lionel really stuck it's head in a hornets nest with this one.
Keith L posted:I happened to notice in Lionel's 2018 volume 1 catalog that, in the description of the forthcoming LCS CSM2, which is designed to monitor the throw position of DZ-2500 switch machines, it says that a DZ-2500 connection board is available from ERR. I don't use DZ-2500 switch machines, so this doesn't affect me personally and I have no direct knowledge of how it works; but if a connection board is needed to use the CSM2 with DZ-2500 switch machines and that board is supposed to be available from ERR, will folks who have DZ-2500 switch machines actually be able to use the CSM2 with them?
Dave Olson of Lionel said that Lionel will continue to make the Breakout PCB board for the DZ2500 switch machines so that these switch machines can be used with the new CSM2. They can be ordered from the Lionel parts department.
Neal Jeter
nvocc5 posted:Dear Marty Eibeck
Thank you, for the information and keeping this thread nice. I have sent my e-mail to Lionel yesterday in regards to ERR.
I really think that someone from Lionel with some kind of integrity stand up and say something about ERR and if there is a replacement ERR coming. I think that Lionel really stuck it's head in a hornets nest with this one.
The announcement was made during the Legacy meeting. The decision was made above those folks representing Lionel at the meeting. The same folks that post here regularly are NOT the folks that made the decision and provided us with the information they had and were able to share. Unless they hear differently from above, I suspect there isn't much to say unless something changes. I hope that we can continue to keep the open dialog somewhat civil and remember that Dave, Ryan, Rudy, and others that post here from Lionel were not responsible for the decision and most likely are limited to what they can share.
Hello Everyone, I had posted this on the tinplate trains but this may be a better bet.
I've been thinking about adding the Lionel 6-13004 TMCC Hiawatha Standard Gauge set to my Christmas around the tree/room carpet layout mix. For Xmas 2017 I had 3 Lionchief sets on 060, 072, 084 fastrack circles around our tree and a postwar 726 running from one end of the basement to the other with an 096 arch around the other loops of the tree. I'd like to replace the 084 fastrack with tinplate standard gauge track. There are a couple of Hiawatha sets new in the shipping cartons on eBay and I so want to pull the trigger and buy a set. I've been watching YouTube videos and reading threads here on this wonderful forum about it. I talked to Mike our standard gauge guy at the last Lakes and Pines TCA meet who runs standard gauge trains at the meets and some shows as well. He owns one had nothing bad to say about the Hiawatha set. I really haven't found any bad words about it. Mike did say the TMCC board could be an issue at some point, or it could show up dead but that there are local guys here in the Twin Cities who could repair them.
So that said... Will the decision by Lionel to pull the plug on EER affect repairing this set if a board fails??? I plan on running it in conventional mode. It's a big investment and don't want to loose out if it can't be repaired. Sorry for my rambling on...
Thanks for your help, I really want to get a set!
Best Regards, Russ...
If Lionel wants to continue offering the ERR product line, would it not be feasible for them to incorporate it into their regular product line, including parts, that they're managing and selling out of their headquarters in North Carolina? It would seem that all the infrastructure that would be needed is already in place there. Perhaps the product line might require the addition of a dedicated staff member to oversee it and to provide customer support. I would think that running it out of North Carolina would be more profitable that running it out of a separate operation in California. Wasn't that at least part of the thinking that prompted Lionel to consolidate all their other operations (Ohio, Michigan, New York) in North Carolina?
Matt Makens posted:You guys never know, maybe with the loss of ERR will come the introduction of the Legacy upgrade. Now that would be sweet. ERR is nice, Legacy is better. r
I would assume Legacy upgrade parts would be more expense, and more difficult to install, but that's just a guess.
I wonder if LionChief Plus parts could be offered for upgrades.
The latest thing I caught today on this subject is that ERR was "promoting older technology" - true enough, but that older technology was also a better technology. The organic de-bugging process of age and experience do make for improvements, and TMCC, as a tool for enjoying your hobby, is superior to Legacy, DCS and - certainly - DCC. (I've never talked to a DCC user, regardless of scale, who actually liked the stuff. One I exposed to TMCC - and he said that he had no idea that command control could be fun.) The CV's are good - to a point. But there are now 200 of them, I think...?
TMCC works. It just does, It's friendly, stable, durable, and elegantly simple to use and understand. It is easy to install. It is, in reality, cheap.
I saw one of the full DCS manuals when it first came out. It looked like something from Microsoft (so thick). I looked at my TMCC manual. 1/4", maybe - and the "getting started" version (only one I typically needed) was a pamphlet. A pamphlet! I only used the "big" one for the lash-up directions.
ERR is causing guys like me to freshen up old stuff rather than buy new stuff, certainly. Mostly because that's where so many desirable pieces are: suffering with PS1 boards, or E-units. Hate to tell 'em, but this decision to kill the best technological deal in town (monetarily and functionally) will not cause me to buy any new Lionel (or other) product. Of course, it will do just the opposite. This will not move me to Legacy or anything else.
TMCC does what I want. The CAB-1 has only a few buttons (I won't even mess with a CAB-2; so busy, so ugly...). Good. CAB-1 has no display screen. Good; I know what I'm doing. Forget the engine # you entered? Put a Post-it Note on it, for Pete's sake.
My command base has never failed; my CAB-1 is 20+ years old with an antenna that won't even retract all the way. It's dirty. It seldom needs batteries. They - the control equipment and the locos with the boards - all live in a building that is only heated/cooled when I'm out there. TMCC tolerates dirty track, which the "D's" (DCS/DCC) do not. It's the old radio control aircraft idea. Proven.
But, this is 2018. Common sense - from both sellers and buyers - is a rare thing. Probably going to be a collectable itself, one day.
I don't know why Lionel is doing this but I do know that I will not buy any more Lionel trains if they do not reverse their decision. I thought about canceling a preorder for a Polar Express but I do not want the dealer I ordered it from to be stuck with it. It's not his fault that this happened. What happened to no train left behind Lionel?
bigdodgetrain posted:GregR posted:Does anyone happen to have names and email contact information for the investor(s) who own Lionel? I wish to send emails to advocate my position on current Lionel leadership.
I'm pretty sure a company with $295 billion in assets will be all ears!
While this announcement took me by surprise too, I wonder if perhaps Lionel just has done a poor job explaining their technology path. If Lionel was to offer Legacy upgrade kits or bluetooth upgrade kits than likely the closing of the ERR product line may just be a natural progression. Lets hope we get some further details in the coming days that may put the ERR announcement in some kind of perspective that makes more sense.
I really hope if Lionel is cutting the ERR line off that something else will fill its shoes. Lionel has had more than 10 years to fine tune Legacy, so Legacy upgrade equipment SHOULD be ready by now, with both the ERR line being discontinued really soon and Legacy having replaced TMCC in the actual product line for almost 10 years.
I'm tempted right now to buy all the ERR equipment I will be needing in the near future right now to guarantee I will have them when I finish this semester in school, even after the York show. I have two 90's Hudsons that I plan on motor converting and using with the existing, older sound systems - something the ERR equipment could do very easily.
I just sent the following to Lionel:
Re: Decision to discontinue selling ERR products:
Can you please provide clarification as this was announced at the York, PA train show last week. Many loyal to Lionel hobbyists have come to rely on the great ERR products to make non-TMCC trains and accessories more fun.
While the ERR products may not be a big money maker for Lionel, from what I am hearing on the O Gauge RR online forum is that many are unhappy with the prospect of not having these great products available for upgrades and or repairs. I personally link Lionel with ERR and have many of the ERR products currently in use o my layout.
I'm sure a solution is available that could keep the products available perhaps as direct purchase items from Lionel service.
Thanks so much for your consideration. I have been a Lionel supporter since the early 1950s and run my Lionel trains often on my large home layout.
FWIW, Lionel priced me out of the market for new engines a while ago. I can afford them--but am not willing to pay for them and this action certainly isn't going to change my mind.
I have done ERR upgrades and DCS upgrades.
One ERR upgrade is now in limbo.
No more Lionel, Atlas-O, 3rd Rail or Weaver purchases (new or pre-owned) until there is an upgrade path that I can afford.
I will concentrate on my MTH fleet and run my numerous Atlas-O and Weaver TMCC engines.
TOO BAD for all of us.
MartyE posted:nvocc5 posted:Dear Marty Eibeck
Thank you, for the information and keeping this thread nice. I have sent my e-mail to Lionel yesterday in regards to ERR.
I really think that someone from Lionel with some kind of integrity stand up and say something about ERR and if there is a replacement ERR coming. I think that Lionel really stuck it's head in a hornets nest with this one.
The announcement was made during the Legacy meeting. The decision was made above those folks representing Lionel at the meeting. The same folks that post here regularly are NOT the folks that made the decision and provided us with the information they had and were able to share. Unless they hear differently from above, I suspect there isn't much to say unless something changes. I hope that we can continue to keep the open dialog somewhat civil and remember that Dave, Ryan, Rudy, and others that post here from Lionel were not responsible for the decision and most likely are limited to what they can share.
I just emailed Lionel Marty. I hope Lionel listens to us.
I have emailed Lionel as well. I had not gotten to the skill level of using one of the TMCC upgrade kits but took comfort in knowing that it was available and people like Alex M. were available to do the upgrade.
here is what I wrote:
Dear Lionel,
I rejoined the O-gauge hobby in 2000 and have been enjoying the fun that is Lionel Trains. Over that time, I have been a regular customer of Eastside Trains in Kirkland, Washington. The vast majority of my Lionel Trains purchases have been at Eastside Trains where I take advantage of their “early buy” program. These have been substantial purchases over the years (presently my preorders total nearly $xyz).
I was disheartened to learn that Lionel is closing down The Electric Railroad Company, and thereby ending the market for TMCC upgrade kits. These kits were helpful to upgrade or repair relatively recent Lionel equipment. So, in effect, a large portion of my modern era collection will be worthless because there will be no way to repair them in an economically efficient way.
I believe that the secondary market for Lionel trains will be negatively impaired by your actions and that this will have a negative financial impact for Lionel LLC for the following reasons:
Given the current situation of repair issues, I will not be making major purchases of Lionel Trains, specifically Legacy Engines due to their costs and complexity.
I used to tell friends that my vintage Lionel trains, which are older than me will run for another 60 years. That is the reputation that Lionel Trains have. Please do not discard that heritage! Please keep supporting these key components that keep the TMCC market alive.
Respectively,
D500 posted:The latest thing I caught today on this subject is that ERR was "promoting older technology" - true enough, but that older technology was also a better technology. The organic de-bugging process of age and experience do make for improvements, and TMCC, as a tool for enjoying your hobby, is superior to Legacy, DCS and - certainly - DCC. (I've never talked to a DCC user, regardless of scale, who actually liked the stuff. One I exposed to TMCC - and he said that he had no idea that command control could be fun.) The CV's are good - to a point. But there are now 200 of them, I think...?
TMCC works. It just does, It's friendly, stable, durable, and elegantly simple to use and understand. It is easy to install. It is, in reality, cheap.
I saw one of the full DCS manuals when it first came out. It looked like something from Microsoft (so thick). I looked at my TMCC manual. 1/4", maybe - and the "getting started" version (only one I typically needed) was a pamphlet. A pamphlet! I only used the "big" one for the lash-up directions.
ERR is causing guys like me to freshen up old stuff rather than buy new stuff, certainly. Mostly because that's where so many desirable pieces are: suffering with PS1 boards, or E-units. Hate to tell 'em, but this decision to kill the best technological deal in town (monetarily and functionally) will not cause me to buy any new Lionel (or other) product. Of course, it will do just the opposite. This will not move me to Legacy or anything else.
TMCC does what I want. The CAB-1 has only a few buttons (I won't even mess with a CAB-2; so busy, so ugly...). Good. CAB-1 has no display screen. Good; I know what I'm doing. Forget the engine # you entered? Put a Post-it Note on it, for Pete's sake.
My command base has never failed; my CAB-1 is 20+ years old with an antenna that won't even retract all the way. It's dirty. It seldom needs batteries. They - the control equipment and the locos with the boards - all live in a building that is only heated/cooled when I'm out there. TMCC tolerates dirty track, which the "D's" (DCS/DCC) do not. It's the old radio control aircraft idea. Proven.
But, this is 2018. Common sense - from both sellers and buyers - is a rare thing. Probably going to be a collectable itself, one day.
I could not agree more with everything said by D500! TMCC is the only control system I use, even though I own a number of Legacy locomotives. I've always felt that Legacy was just a gimmick to add unnecessary features, and raise prices.
For me, DCS is a non-starter, because I want use a computer to run some of my trains. DCS can't do that, because the command codes remain unpublished to this day.
DCC, while very powerful, seems like a royal pain. While it is open source, JMRI has developed Decoder Pro software in the hopes of simplifying the programming process. I always sit back with a somewhat smug grin, thinking about how simple it is to program my trains, while those guys are standing on their heads, trying to program theirs. I had an opportunity to go and operate on an HO layout last fall. What a hassle it was to use that remote.
Every once in a while, I need to buy an MTH or WBB engine. My layout has no provision for conventional running, I'm 100% TMCC. Lionel's decision to pull the plug on ERR is a disaster in my world. I said back on page one of this topic, that I ordered seven boards, Saturday night when I read this. I have three MTH engines I want to convert right away, and the potential for another four, but it shouldn't have to be this way!
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