The death of the TMCC upgrade

palallin posted:

 

Therefore, when the next loco fails, I will begin the process of stripping all control systems out of the engines.  They will be replaced with direct wiring and/or a bridge rectifier, and the layout will revert to conventional control. 

 

I'm beginning to be glad about the fact I never bit the TMCC or DCS bullet and still solely run conventional. That stated,  I'll miss ERR.  I bought and installed their sound cards in two of my engines (which as my daughter put it "brought them to life") and modified both of them to have remote couplers which are controlled by this inexpensive gadget:

https://www.electricalstore.or...-receiver-momentary/

I'm pretty confident all those now "old school" electrical add ons will hold up, given my two MTH 1990s era PS1 engines (with their original  PSA routines) are still going strong. 

I did look at the BlueRail Trains website and their system looks interesting.  At this time, it isn't capable of controlling AC motored engines (unless they or someone else is working on some sort of inverter circuit).  It also would also render any MTH PS1 engines it is installed into becoming silent -unless someone has or is working to figure out if  there is a surgical work around on those old MTH boards that allows one to keep audio functionality while bypassing the DCRU circuitry.   

A simple approach to the latter would seemingly be to disconnect the motor from the DCRU and connect it to the BlueRail unit.   But that assumes the lack of a motor load on the DCRU wouldn't cause problems with the rest of the PS1 circuitry, which I suspect it would.  

At least at first glance, this is sad news. I currently have 4 engines "scheduled" to receive ERR upgrades. Now they're sidelined, apparently, unless and until something else comes along. And who knows when, or if, that will ever happen. It's a very upsetting development.

As others have noted, I wonder as well where this leaves Atlas O and 3rd Rail. It would seem that this news is pretty devastating to them.

breezinup posted:

As others have noted, I wonder as well where this leaves Atlas O and 3rd Rail. It would seem that this news is pretty devastating to them.

The boards will still be available to them per Dave.  This, as of now, affects the consumer only not the other manufacturers that use TMCC boards.  Makes you wonder right?  Maybe the solution is to order through them?

I did send a note to Lionel asking them to reconsider their decision. I am afraid that it will be conversion to postwar for me. Its the best

I am not "in the loop" so could someone explain what is going on with TMCC and causing some operators to revert back to conventional control? I have a small layout with some Legacy and TMCC locomotives. Does this even affect me for the future?

Plankowner110 posted:

I am not "in the loop" so could someone explain what is going on with TMCC and causing some operators to revert back to conventional control? I have a small layout with some Legacy and TMCC locomotives. Does this even affect me for the future?

It's called being peeved at a Companies decision to kill off a product. If you have " any conventional lionel engines that you wish to upgrade or any other manufacturers engines you wish to upgrade to TMCC. Then, it will affect you! If you have a older TMCC engine that parts are no longer available. It will affect you.  As, a point many people have converted older MTH PS1 engines to TMCC.  They will be affected.

"Does this even affect me for the future?"

Doubt it very much.

(1) ERR's closing is mainly of interest to folks who want to use TMCC after market boards to control their conventional, PS2/3, or other non-TMCC/Legacy locos.  

(2) Someone, somewhere, somehow will make TMCC/Legacy upgrades available, just as Jon Z. made ERR boards available as Train America and Digital Dynamics closed their TMCC board businesses.

Don't worry, be happy.   There's more heat than light in this thread, in my view. Sound and fury signifying not as much as you might think, to paraphrase Willie S.

Everybody is panicking......there are lots of dealers including myself that will continue to install TMCC and with all of this chatter I am sure Lionel is listening. 

Ed posted:

Everybody is panicking......there are lots of dealers including myself that will continue to install TMCC and with all of this chatter I am sure Lionel is listening. 

Ed,

Just like some prefer to work on their own cars. I like to repair my own trains. Maybe, I don't want to pack them and risk them being lost or damaged. Maybe, I believe my work is "better". That's not meaning you don't do great work..

But, I believe this will drop the number of upgrades overall. I believe you will also see a fall off. Simply put - I will sell the engines, or keep them the way they are....

I'm overloaded with trains. I was at the point  - like I have to sell some. Lionel, just stopped my addiction. Sit back and watch. I think you are about to be surprised how deep this scar will run.

You guys never know, maybe with the loss of ERR will come the introduction of the Legacy upgrade. Now that would be sweet. ERR is nice, Legacy is better. I’m going to order parts for my 2 customers that want them then I’ll wait n see. 

Im really excited to run my Santa Fe PAs soon and do some long range shooting wile out at the farm. Been done time since I took a 700 yard shot. 

Its spring, get out and enjoy the nice weather figure out the end of days next winter

Matt Makens posted:

You guys never know, maybe with the loss of ERR will come the introduction of the Legacy upgrade. Now that would be sweet. ERR is nice, Legacy is better. I’m going to order parts for my 2 customers that want them then I’ll wait n see. 

Im really excited to run my Santa Fe PAs soon and do some long range shooting wile out at the farm. Been done time since I took a 700 yard shot. 

Its spring, get out and enjoy the nice weather figure out the end of days next winter

Certainly, I hope you are right. But, with some of the decisions that are being made mixed with "OTHER" cosmetic issues. I wouldn't hold your breath to long.

Here is a video I found on YouTube. My question is will O scale DCC run on DCS?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnVFaUVVMT0

I’m not holding my breath, I’m accepting the fact that there’s nothing I can do about it. I’ll get what I need now and worry about later issues, well, later

I have done many TMCC custom conversions with separately purchased components.  It gets expensive beside the complicated nature.  Mother board, motor driver, Sound board and power supply, all the wiring harness.  Plus ERR represented Back EMF, almost all of Lionel use Cruise with a tach.  So now you need a flywheel, tach reader and such?  Not really sustainable method for upgrades.  ERR Cruise CDR was a simple integrated cruise board.

Even with Ken retiring, and closing CA, Lionel could sell them direct.  Will see if some one steps up.  Fred wants to sell QSI, I received an offer via a third party.  Some one want to pay the large initial fee to purchase the name and tech.  Then go to China to find away to produce the boards and run it? Plus pay a royalty to Lionel.  It all sounds simple, but do a business plan and see if it makes sense.  Lionel could have closed ERR and still sold the product via there own parts website?  Since they are choosing not too, why do you think a third party will get the right to do it?

Frankly, I think the Blue tooth and DCC folk will step in, but it will be their system.  Not a TMCC based system.  G

nvocc5 posted:

Here is a video I found on YouTube. My question is will O scale DCC run on DCS?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnVFaUVVMT0

No, as DCC and DCS are 2 different command control protocols.

I just got into this hobby and to now see this is a bummer... I think.  I haven't lost much really, since the most advanced engine I have is a Lionel Century Club GG1 (TMCC) and an MTH Premier GP-30 with PS (1.0).  I only have conventional transformers and was delaying my decision on selecting DCS or Legacy.  I'm thinking that decision has now been made pretty clear.  Have looked at BlueRail's board but until there is good polyphonic sound and the ability to supply over 1.5 A it's simply a curiosity for now.  Don't know why they haven't made that move yet, maybe they are talking with Lionel about supplying drop in Bluetooth boards with Legacy features?  Seems like a natural progression.

All,

I have been following this thread all evening since I saw it come through as an email from a modeler I follow. 

I understand how the users of the ERR upgrades are angry, and rightfully so. These were great products for upgrading older Lionel engines. I was looking to someday add one to my 80s era Blue Comet, but alas, now I will not.

All the curgent model engines I have are MTH.  I have seen a few posts here bash MTH, and I don’t believe that is fair.  But I also have seen a few posts lamenting the continued demise of the hobby and how the open DCC is better. If I am wrong, someone can correct me, but all the MTH engines I have that run DCS Proto 3.0 can ALSO run on DCC (with a little loss of a few functions). So it seems to me MTH has built in more flexibility then Lionel did. 

I hope a DCC company or other group steps in and picks up where Lionel has just dropped the ball. At the same time, I am happy with my choice of going with MTH.  

Carl

GGG posted:

I have done many TMCC custom conversions with separately purchased components.  It gets expensive beside the complicated nature.  Mother board, motor driver, Sound board and power supply, all the wiring harness.  Plus ERR represented Back EMF, almost all of Lionel use Cruise with a tach.  So now you need a flywheel, tach reader and such?  Not really sustainable method for upgrades.  ERR Cruise CDR was a simple integrated cruise board.

Even with Ken retiring, and closing CA, Lionel could sell them direct.  Will see if some one steps up.  Fred wants to sell QSI, I received an offer via a third party.  Some one want to pay the large initial fee to purchase the name and tech.  Then go to China to find away to produce the boards and run it? Plus pay a royalty to Lionel.  It all sounds simple, but do a business plan and see if it makes sense.  Lionel could have closed ERR and still sold the product via there own parts website?  Since they are choosing not too, why do you think a third party will get the right to do it?

Frankly, I think the Blue tooth and DCC folk will step in, but it will be their system.  Not a TMCC based system.  G

Not to mention it was reported earlier that ERR profits were less than 5K annually.

Dave45681 posted:

Unless I heard incorrectly, I believe the number Dave Olson quoted for ERR profit  was less than $5k for a year of operation.

If this is true, who would want to pick up the reigns for that type of income?

MTH upgrades are complicated endeavors. ERR upgrades while a bit less complicated they are still pretty complex to do correctly and adding smoke units with chuff switches and sound is more complicated. Not to mention lighting, that’s a while other can of worms to get the light8ng functions you want out of the system. All the add-ones get expensive. I’ve got 2 - 3rd Rail steam engines gett8ng upgraded on my bench now and they are almost total rewires and he wants me to do 3 more so I’m getting boards now. But anybody that does them right knows they aren’t easy but I will miss the product and the top notch support from Ken as he would always get to the bottom of my issues when do8ng cruise M installs. Really top notch, both ?Johnny and Jenn will be missed.

Don’t forget, ERR also paid Ken and Johns salary befor profits were figured. Another solution will present itself or not, we will have to wait and see. Like Scott Mann said, maybe 3rd Rail will become a licensed upgrade dealer, who knows. It’s not the end of the world. Life goes on and so do our trains. 

Matt Makens posted:

MTH upgrades are complicated endeavors. ERR upgrades while a bit less complicated they are still pretty complex to do correctly and adding smoke units with chuff switches and sound is more complicated. Not to mention lighting, that’s a while other can of worms to get the light8ng functions you want out of the system. All the add-ones get expensive. I’ve got 2 - 3rd Rail steam engines gett8ng upgraded on my bench now and they are almost total rewires and he wants me to do 3 more so I’m getting boards now. But anybody that does them right knows they aren’t easy but I will miss the product and the top notch support from Ken as he would always get to the bottom of my issues when do8ng cruise M installs. Really top notch, both ?Johnny and Jenn will be missed.

Don’t forget, ERR also paid Ken and Johns salary befor profits were figured. Another solution will present itself or not, we will have to wait and see. Like Scott Mann said, maybe 3rd Rail will become a licensed upgrade dealer, who knows. It’s not the end of the world. Life goes on and so do our trains. 

Complex? Not at all.......it's tougher to repair a eunit!  

MartyE posted:

@Notch 6 

Derek do we have a more direct email to Howard?  While Talk to Us has worked in the past, an important matter like this seems to need a more direct route. 

hhitchcock@lionel.com

This sucks. So if you have an older  engine especially without a flywheel your screwed. 

The Legacy Users Group supports the efforts outlined by The Notch 6 folks.

While we certainly understand "the bottom line" we also feel that the TMCC products produced by ERR are a necessity to keep older engines and those needing upgrade viable in a hobby that cannot sustain "disposable products" when they fail.  ERR provided a path to TMCC and Legacy that has moved many folks back into trains by upgrading older equipment,equipment that has failed electronically, and folks who embrace technology.

ERR has also inspired other folks with the know how to create some unique products that compliment ERR installs such as the "Super Chuffer" from GRJ.

The Legacy Users Group has supported the Lionel Legacy system twice a year at every York show. We also support Legacy and TMCC via postings on the OGR forum.  We feel we have a pretty good working relationship with Dave, Jon and the entire Lionel team when it comes to supporting Legacy to the masses. We feel that support extends beyond to TMCC, ERR, and other TMCC related devices because it allows Legacy users to run almost any vintage train with the Legacy System.

The Legacy Users group hopes that Lionel takes another look at this decision and changes direction.  We think that it would be a mistake to discontinue this product without a viable path to a TMCC upgrade for future hobbyist.  We encourage the OGR forum, clubs, and dealers to let Lionel know how they feel about this decision.  We ask that these correspondences be respectfully but firmly written.  While this upsets folks, we need to make sure we hold ourselves to a standard.  Let them know how you feel but keep it profession.  

The Legacy Users Group hopes Lionel will take a hard look at the loss of the ERR line, at minimal engine upgrades, so we can continue to operate our trains with the Legacy system. 

Sad news.  I just added ERR TMCC and sound to a William's FM.  Fits great, works great and relatively easy to install.  The model train industry needs more ERR type companies, not less.  Can't believe Lionel gave up on this ?  I thought ERR was a great way for Lionel to step up and provide long term product support as well as expanding their TMCC technology base.

Also, I'm with MartyE above.

Ed posted:

Everybody is panicking......there are lots of dealers including myself that will continue to install TMCC and with all of this chatter I am sure Lionel is listening. 

How are you going to provide TMCC upgrades if there are no parts left to order??

Maybe TW Trainworx and Mike Reagan can take it over.

Ed posted:

Ken is a single man operation. He answers phone calls, takes orders, programs and tests every unit that is sent out and puts together all the kits that we enjoy. Every one of the sound cards he programs, all the TMCC boards he programs including the Min II and the he tests everyone. He is a great individual and a huge asset to the hobby and will be surely missed. I don't think Lionel has any idea how much he does nor has anyone that can do what he does so Ken enjoy your retirement!

Ed,

This is why I love Ken and you.

Ray

MartyE posted:

The Legacy Users Group supports the efforts outlined by The Notch 6 folks.

While we certainly understand "the bottom line" we also feel that the TMCC products produced by ERR are a necessity to keep older engines and those needing upgrade viable in a hobby that cannot sustain "disposable products" when they fail.  ERR provided a path to TMCC and Legacy that has moved many folks back into trains by upgrading older equipment,equipment that has failed electronically, and folks who embrace technology.

ERR has also inspired other folks with the know how to create some unique products that compliment ERR installs such as the "Super Chuffer" from GRJ.

The Legacy Users Group has supported the Lionel Legacy system twice a year at every York show. We also support Legacy and TMCC via postings on the OGR forum.  We feel we have a pretty good working relationship with Dave, Jon and the entire Lionel team when it comes to supporting Legacy to the masses. We feel that support extends beyond to TMCC, ERR, and other TMCC related devices because it allows Legacy users to run almost any vintage train with the Legacy System.

The Legacy Users group hopes that Lionel takes another look at this decision and changes direction.  We think that it would be a mistake to discontinue this product without a viable path to a TMCC upgrade for future hobbyist.  We encourage the OGR forum, clubs, and dealers to let Lionel know how they feel about this decision.  We ask that these correspondences be respectfully but firmly written.  While this upsets folks, we need to make sure we hold ourselves to a standard.  Let them know how you feel but keep it profession.  

The Legacy Users Group hopes Lionel will take a hard look at the loss of the ERR line, at minimal engine upgrades, so we can continue to operate our trains with the Legacy system. 

Marty 

     Very well said , we can only hope they change their mind and keep producing the product. Fingers crossed. 

Alex 

I just ordered 700 worth of items from ERR. Lets see if they have the Railsound Boards and TMCC drivers in stock...

I think the present Lionel employees are in favor of ERR. We need contact information on the financial owner and the comic Book dude. They make the real decisions.

modeltrainsparts posted:

This is very disturbing news to say the least. The one change I've noticed that the return labels on my last two orders from ERR indicated the package was from B.G. Technologies of the same Walsh Ave. address. Any explanations?

B.G.Technologies is the original name of the ERR company. I questioned ken when I ordered a board from ERR and saw the B.G. technologies on the invoice, and that was his answer.

Jim Stefl posted:

I think the present Lionel employees are in favor of ERR. We need contact information on the financial owner and the comic Book dude. They make the real decisions.

The "Comic Book Dude" hasn't been with Lionel for over 5 years or more.

Thank you, Marty.  Jim, referring to people with insulting nicknames is not necessary, and not productive.

MrMoe50 posted:

ogaugeguy posted:

So, if lack of profit is truly the real reason for this decision, I'm curious what, if any attempts have been made by Lionel to sell off this losing ERR entity as many other companies have done with financially draining segments of their companies? It would be great if Mike Reagan, (should he want to,) be able to take back contol of this tmcc upgrading baby he once gave birth to.

Mike Reagan?  I thought ERR was Jon Zahornacky‘s baby?

Think he was referring to Mike R's TrainAmerica Studios business.

Dan Fender posted:

modeltrainsparts posted:

The one change I've noticed that the return labels on my last two orders from ERR indicated the package was from B.G. Technologies of the same Walsh Ave. address. Any explanations?

My most recent order of an ERR item (back in early March) was also shipped from B.G. Technologies and the same name appeared on the transaction on my Paypal account.

B.G.technologies is the original company name of ERR.

Look people you do understand that Lionel's continuation of ERR products just shoots themselves in the foot as they probably realized their biggest competition is NOT MTH and their regurgitation of the same old products but the huge amount of product in the secondary market. With ERR installs one can purchase a good used O gauge loco regardless of mfg, install the ERR electronics for the better sound and most command functions at a fraction of the cost of a new loco which is Lionel's bread and butter. Lionel probably realized the secondary market is growing by leaps and bounds as O gaugers like myself find it harder and harder to buy new so we turn to the Secondary market to upgrade with "good enough electronics". Lionel bean counters then realize they are ultimately fighting themselves as people ask themselves is this Legacy $1800+ loco or a $600.00 loco with a 30% failure rate worth it when I can buy a used K-line at a fraction and add the upgraded ERR electronics and get a "good enough" loco with the CD sounds and horn. So what if the horn can't quill or the Steamers bell doesn't move for $500.00 more! This mentality has bitten into Lionel's "BTO" program.

The other scenario that isn't stated here is quite possibly the ERR electronic components are becoming too costly to manufacturer as they are becoming outdated. With Jon retired, will Lionel spend good R&D $$ on new electronics for "Good Will" to the hobby when they can be making more by selling a new loco with updated electronics and increasing profits to an otherwise shrinking market?

In the end- short term, I hope those that are complaining and screaming above will win the battle but in the long run eventually this is what will happen.

ZWPOWER13 posted:

Ed posted:

Everybody is panicking......there are lots of dealers including myself that will continue to install TMCC and with all of this chatter I am sure Lionel is listening. 

How are you going to provide TMCC upgrades if there are no parts left to order??

Maybe TW Trainworx and Mike Reagan can take it over.

 

I think what Ed meant is that he will get the factory parts from Lionel and install an upgrade that way. 

I like your idea of Mike Reagan and TW Trainworx taking it over but time will tell if they have an interest in doing so. 

I agree with others above. I think someone will at least want to take over ERR and hopefully Lionel will allow them to do it at a reasonable cost. 

Guys, knowing the demand for the Cruise commander boards I would believe there will be another announcement soon. Hang in there.

If manufacturing and selling the boards is not profitable, why continue selling to 3rd rail and Atlas, unless, as someone indicated, there is some sort of contract in place to supply them.  And if that is the case, why not continue to produce and sell them to the public until contracts expire and inventories disappear?  To reach economies of scale, dont you have to sell as many as possible to drive down the cost per item to make it worthwhile?  As some others previously indicated, they will not be buying any more proto1 locomotives or older tmcc locomotives on the secondary market.  Am I correct in assuming Lionel production numbers have decreased as prices have increased as we see with all the BTO products?  You can only build so many Big Boys, Challengers and Hudsons before people ask themselves do I really need another?  Sure, you toss in some new bells and whistles, literally, but you are Essentially trying to get them to keep purchasing the same item that they already have.  Im sure there is more at play here, but I myself don’t understand why people pay such high prices for some of the newer products when there are  older products that can be upgraded and be almost as good for substantially less money.  Are the majority of hobbyists thinking this too now?  Is this being done to the extent that Lionel thinks they need a fix? Hmmm.  If this is the case, time will tell if its a backfire.  Yes, you might sell a few more of those new trains to the people who decide to buy new vs upgrade old, but you might also turn away a larger number of the dedicated followers who feel abandoned.  Will they damage their own sales if consumers will not be convinced their investment can be fixed down the road?  Too soon to press any panic buttons though, but will sure be interesting to see how it all plays out.

Jsulli21 posted:

modeltrainsparts posted:

This is very disturbing news to say the least. The one change I've noticed that the return labels on my last two orders from ERR indicated the package was from B.G. Technologies of the same Walsh Ave. address. Any explanations?

B.G.Technologies is the original name of the ERR company. I questioned ken when I ordered a board from ERR and saw the B.G. technologies on the invoice, and that was his answer.

 

Well if B.G.Technologies is who actually manufactures them, I wonder if someone could contact them and get the product from them. ( I'm not meaning as a individual but as a company that has the assets to do so)  

modeltrainsparts posted:

Thank you, Marty.  Jim, referring to people with insulting nicknames is not necessary, and not productive.

I agree.  If we are going to get Lionel to listen the last thing we need is to be insulting and vulgar.