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Hey guys....I am another one of the ones forced to move faster than I was intending.  I want to convert a few older conventional engines to TMCC.  Does the ERR AC and DC commander come with the R2LC board or do you need to buy that separately.  I cant afford to do sound and cruise now...but do I need to get anything else to just upgrade a conventional engine so that I can run it with TMCC controls.  Thanks.

3665 gjb posted:

Hey guys....I am another one of the ones forced to move faster than I was intending.  I want to convert a few older conventional engines to TMCC.  Does the ERR AC and DC commander come with the R2LC board or do you need to buy that separately.  I cant afford to do sound and cruise now...but do I need to get anything else to just upgrade a conventional engine so that I can run it with TMCC controls.  Thanks.

The commander comes with the R2LC. 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I was needless to say, bummed out by hearing this news.  I will doubtless have to discontinue my Super-Chuffer and Chuff-Generator as not having TMCC upgrades makes them kinda' moot.  I will obviously be emphasizing my PS/3 upgrade business since that's now the only command/control upgrade path it would appear.  I discount BlueTooth at the present as I still haven't seen an O-gauge product.  Sure makes me wonder why I didn't go with HO and standard control systems!

I'll be taking a close look at the MTH catalogs for my future purchases, hard to justify rewarding Lionel for jerking the rug out!

John, I checked the Hennings website last night to find that your Super Chuffer boards were sold out. I hope you will consider possibly taking orders for at least one more manufacturing run of your boards! Thanks!

You miss the point, there are no hard numbers to go on so it’s all speculation but let’s say the office costs 3k a month, employees John and Ken another 6k each so you’ve got 15k a month that’s 180k a year. Let’s add 10% for other costs that’s 2k and 30% for inventory  that’s 54k  254k a year now they made 5k profit so let’s make it an even 260k in revenue. So let’s say atlas and 3rd Rail account for 30% each of the sales and consumers account for 40%. Lionel Has 60% of that business locked up so your left with 40% of 260k That’s 104k. Now you’re gonna have to buy boards from Lionel, you could expect to pay 50% of retail and so you have $52,000 in cost just for inventory, that leaves you the other $52,000 a year to pay rent, phone, internet, insurance, office supplies, electricity, and of course wages. So you tell me, where’s the money at?

Patrick: "Thanks for the info and for getting a call to Ken.  I know he's quite busy especially since this announcement became a reality.  I have a weekend order in there too.  I'll then expect it to be filled in two weeks time. "

Your welcome Patrick,

I do think Ken will need two weeks to gather all these orders and package them up.  He mentioned he was rather swamped.  Glad I made that call, and was able to talk with Ken.  

He also mentioned that the operations of ERR are moving to North Carolina.  Lionel may need some time to get everything moved and operational once again.  I hope Lionel makes an announcement, perhaps at one the York meets about the future of these ERR products for consumer availability.

rthomps posted:
bigdodgetrain posted:
rthomps posted:
bigdodgetrain posted:
BMT-Express posted:
bigdodgetrain posted:
GregR posted:

Does anyone happen to have names and email contact information for the investor(s) who own Lionel? I wish to send emails to advocate my position on current Lionel leadership.

https://www.guggenheimpartners.com/contact

Guggenheim no longer owns Lionel.  

 

You are barking at the moon.

 

 

then smarty pants who owns them???

 

the latest I have is;

It went from Cowen to Cohn to General Mills to Kughn to Wellspring to Guggenheim.

I asked days ago for "those in the know" to cite a definitive reference about Lionel's ownership (e.g., WSJ, Forbes).

Crickets.

you two don't know much about PRIVATE companies do you!

Lionel, L.L.C.    a North Carolina registered LLC

Registered Agent is Cogency Global

Current Members of LLC are the 2 below

Chris Elrod - Chief Financial Officer and Managing Director

Melanie Turner - Secretary

Non LLC-member executive of Lionel is Howard Hitchcock, President and CEO.

It is a private company, and regardless of who the investors are, the financial decisions would come down to the LLC members, and especially the CFO, in this case Chris Elrod.

breezinup posted:
GHD posted:

John, isn’t this stuff around long enough that any patents would have expired? 

They last 20 years from the date of the application, so I assume expiration will not occur for quite some time. I'm not sure this is a very useful question anyway. 

Most likely selling boards to third party.

shawn posted:
breezinup posted:
GHD posted:

John, isn’t this stuff around long enough that any patents would have expired? 

They last 20 years from the date of the application, so I assume expiration will not occur for quite some time. I'm not sure this is a very useful question anyway. 

Most likely selling boards to third party.

It could have been updated with the advent of legacy?

Jim Harrington posted:
Robbie posted:

Ken....

He also mentioned that the operations of ERR are moving to North Carolina.  Lionel may need some time to get everything moved and operational once again...

This is the only good news on the topic so far.  

Perhaps our friends at Lionel can jump in and clarify?

At the Legacy meeting it was explained that any remaining inventory would be moved to NC in a few months.  Once the remaining inventory was sold there was no plans to continue to sell upgrades to the consumer.  As of now Atlas, 3rd Rail, and other manufacturers that use TMCC in their product would continue to get components.  I wouldn't get your hopes up.

Again I cannot emphasize as Derek did above that we must really do this correctly and make sure we are heard.  Whether Lionel continues or allows another vendor to offer upgrades we need to let Lionel that we want upgrades available.  With PS3 upgrades for DCS being sold, this really needs to continue for those of us that have invested not only money but time in TMCC/Legacy.

Please write Lionel.  Keep it professional but firm.  Hey we saved the Black Module for now so you never know.

Last edited by MartyE

Just thought I would add my two cents to this discussion. 

While I am concerned about the ability to get repairs done to the TMCC and Legacy engines in my small roster it occurred to me that we as Lionel customers, both new and used, are investing in a 20 year old technology. We are counting on Lionel to support that technology in the future no matter the cost or availability of the parts to repair that technology. No manufacture does that in today’s world. New technologies are developed and applied and old ones, no matter how successful, are discarded. That, unfortunately, is the world we live in. 

I suspect that Lionel was faced with the difficult choice here because of manufacturing costs. The cost of parts and the difficulty of getting these boards built in a quantity to justify a run by the manufacturer has become prohibitive. So I’m guessing that the boards on hand or in the pipe line are being used to satisfy the contracts they have with Atlas and Third Rail. And after they are used up the announcement will come that Legacy will be available to them. That leaves out the DIY hobbyist for now. 

We can complain to Lionel but I’m afraid the bottom line and the use of old technology has ended the run of ERR. 

Again just my two cents.

Dave

P. S. DCS is not immune to this either. It’s aging too. 

 

 

It’s true that TMCC is older technology but who wants to upgrade their entire fleet of locomotives every so often? Not me that’s for sure. Upgrades are not cheap and usually not really easy. 

In the other scales that use DCC that protocol hasn’t changed and it is older than TMCC. 

It has been said that ERR was a really good product. Why fix what isn’t broken?

Last edited by Hudson J1e
ncdave posted:

Just thought I would add my two cents to this discussion. 

While I am concerned about the ability to get repairs done to the TMCC and Legacy engines in my small roster it occurred to me that we as Lionel customers, both new and used, are investing in a 20 year old technology. We are counting on Lionel to support that technology in the future no matter the cost or availability of the parts to repair that technology. No manufacture does that in today’s world. New technologies are developed and applied and old ones, no matter how successful, are discarded. That, unfortunately, is the world we live in. 

I suspect that Lionel was faced with the difficult choice here because of manufacturing costs. The cost of parts and the difficulty of getting these boards built in a quantity to justify a run by the manufacturer has become prohibitive. So I’m guessing that the boards on hand or in the pipe line are being used to satisfy the contracts they have with Atlas and Third Rail. And after they are used up the announcement will come that Legacy will be available to them. That leaves out the DIY hobbyist for now. 

We can complain to Lionel but I’m afraid the bottom line and the use of old technology has ended the run of ERR. 

Again just my two cents.

Dave

P. S. DCS is not immune to this either. It’s aging too. 

 

 

Fair point.  This is one of the reasons why I am surprised that so many folks seem resistant to the LCS and MTH applications for iPhone/Android.  The reality is that supporting the hardware behind these Legacy or DCS systems is not a winning or long-term idea from a business perspective given the constantly changing nature of technology, and if it can be done on a smart phone, that is a win-win for the customer and the manufacturer.  (This is what the founder of the ERR said in this thread, many pages ago as well.)  The customer gets a cheaper and more modern interface that is, frankly, nicer to use once you adapt to it.  The manufacturer gets out of the low margin, high-headache business of trying to source components for 20 year old technology. 

As far as the TMCC upgrades go, I understand the disappointment from those who do the upgrades and I already emailed Lionel as these people should not just be left out in the cold.  But that being said, has anyone from Lionel definitively said that repair parts for older locomotives will not be available?  I understand that there is an implication that this could happen, but it would be good to have additional facts about what support will be offered for older TMCC equipment.  Too much of the conversation here falls into "the sky is falling" tone and that is generally neither enlightening nor helpful.  It could be that Lionel has a plan to offer a kit to retrofit, for example, the Bluetooth technology eventually.  I have no idea but there are people here who may be able to learn more. 

Hudson J1e posted:

It’s true that TMCC is older technology but who wants to upgrade their entire fleet of locomotives every so often? Not me that’s for sure. Upgrades are not cheap and usually not really easy. 

In the other scales that use DCC that protocol hasn’t changed and it is older than TMCC. 

It has been said that ERR was a really good product. Why fix what isn’t broken?

But this is exactly the current USian business model:  replace everything every few years to perpetuate the consumer-driven economy.  It doesn't matter whether or not it works, replace it anyway.  If something does continue to work after a few years, the manufacturers re-engineer it to fail sooner.  Then create consumer hype (i.e. BS) to convince everyone that ONLY the LATEST and GREATEST and NEWEST and FASTEST and GIZMO-LADEN is worthy of their love.  Everyone has to keep spending money like that--rather than, say, saving it?--in order to keep the machine moving. 

I am no anti-capitalist, but I am becoming very much anti-consumer.

Ray Lombardo posted 

Fair point.  This is one of the reasons why I am surprised that so many folks seem resistant to the LCS and MTH applications for iPhone/Android.  The reality is that supporting the hardware behind these Legacy or DCS systems is not a winning or long-term idea from a business perspective given the constantly changing nature of technology, and if it can be done on a smart phone, that is a win-win for the customer and the manufacturer.  (This is what the founder of the ERR said in this thread, many pages ago as well.)  The customer gets a cheaper and more modern interface that is, frankly, nicer to use once you adapt to it.  The manufacturer gets out of the low margin, high-headache business of trying to source components for 20 year old technology. 

Not everyone has a smartphone, and I would hardly call the "interface" nicer:  it's too small, cramped, and difficult for many to use (eyesight, coordination, arthritis, . . .).

 

Last edited by palallin

One has to wonder where the hobby is headed.  The thread about York attendance seems to indicate the manufacturers, at least some of them, are unhappy with the turnout.  Now we have this, what amounts to declaration that a prior platform will now be declared obsolete.  This will certainly have impact on the future attendance at York and support for the manufacturer that abruptly cancelled the product.  Ironic isn't it, complain about attendance and at the same event thumb your nose at your customer base.  My prediction is Lionel will not respond to the emails from forum members and will do what it feels it must to meet their business plans.  Now I have to make a decision, invest in some additional boards that will be unsupported or consider abandonment completely moving to something completely different or conventional.  It's time to explore battery power and dead rail alternatives which appear to be growing in popularity across all scales.  If I am going to invest money it might as well be something that doesn't only apply to trains.  I am not sending Lionel an email, what I will do is vote with my dollars.

Ray Lombardo posted:
ncdave posted:

Just thought I would add my two cents to this discussion. 

While I am concerned about the ability to get repairs done to the TMCC and Legacy engines in my small roster it occurred to me that we as Lionel customers, both new and used, are investing in a 20 year old technology. We are counting on Lionel to support that technology in the future no matter the cost or availability of the parts to repair that technology. No manufacture does that in today’s world. New technologies are developed and applied and old ones, no matter how successful, are discarded. That, unfortunately, is the world we live in. 

I suspect that Lionel was faced with the difficult choice here because of manufacturing costs. The cost of parts and the difficulty of getting these boards built in a quantity to justify a run by the manufacturer has become prohibitive. So I’m guessing that the boards on hand or in the pipe line are being used to satisfy the contracts they have with Atlas and Third Rail. And after they are used up the announcement will come that Legacy will be available to them. That leaves out the DIY hobbyist for now. 

We can complain to Lionel but I’m afraid the bottom line and the use of old technology has ended the run of ERR. 

Again just my two cents.

Dave

P. S. DCS is not immune to this either. It’s aging too. 

 

 

Fair point.  This is one of the reasons why I am surprised that so many folks seem resistant to the LCS and MTH applications for iPhone/Android.  The reality is that supporting the hardware behind these Legacy or DCS systems is not a winning or long-term idea from a business perspective given the constantly changing nature of technology, and if it can be done on a smart phone, that is a win-win for the customer and the manufacturer.  (This is what the founder of the ERR said in this thread, many pages ago as well.)  The customer gets a cheaper and more modern interface that is, frankly, nicer to use once you adapt to it.  The manufacturer gets out of the low margin, high-headache business of trying to source components for 20 year old technology. 

As far as the TMCC upgrades go, I understand the disappointment from those who do the upgrades and I already emailed Lionel as these people should not just be left out in the cold.  But that being said, has anyone from Lionel definitively said that repair parts for older locomotives will not be available?  I understand that there is an implication that this could happen, but it would be good to have additional facts about what support will be offered for older TMCC equipment.  Too much of the conversation here falls into "the sky is falling" tone and that is generally neither enlightening nor helpful.  It could be that Lionel has a plan to offer a kit to retrofit, for example, the Bluetooth technology eventually.  I have no idea but there are people here who may be able to learn more. 

This has happened before. QSI was the leader in 3 rail sound and control, then TMCC made QSI obsolete and they got out of the 3 rail game. But when they did, there was already something else ready to take their place. In this case, there doesn't seem to be.

If Legacy is better, why can't ERR make conversion kits for that?

ncdave posted:
P. S. DCS is not immune to this either. It’s aging too. 

 

I would say that DCS is evolving as it ages. Newer tech like the DCS explorer and WIU have expanded upon the capabilities of the DCS system. I like the fact that the WIU made tomorrow will work with the TIU I bought in 2002.

palallin posted:

Not everyone has a smartphone, and I would hardly call the "interface" nicer:  it's too small, cramped, and difficult for many to use to use (eyesight, coordination, arthritis, . . .).

I have seen first hand how the app has brought command control to those with disabilities that were never able to control trains with the large bulky remotes. There is an older member in our train club that has Parkinsons and operating the remotes with there tiny buttons is extremely difficult, let alone holding them like we do. The app with larger buttons ( on a 11 inch tablet) and the use of a weighted stylus has been much easier for him to use. Before the apps, he was limited to conventional operation only and even that was a struggle.

Also keep in mind that the apps are software, and easily changed. I envision someday where we as operators will be able to customize the look and controls we see on the apps. We would be able to put commonly used controls on the home screen of the app in any way we want them to appear. Personally, I wish the the red wheel on the cab remote was in a different location but that's never going to happen.

I'm predicting that future upgrades are likely to be Bluetooth from Lionel.  Another possibility is the 2.4 GHz spread spectrum Lionchief technology.  True, you cannot control either directly with the cab-1 or cab-2, at least at present.  However, the advantages are truly substantial. 

One, it will be dirt cheap compared with a Legacy or PS3 upgrade.  Perhaps literally an order of a magnitude cheaper. Bluetooth technology has the economy of scale missing in our hobby's production of proprietary hardware.  Literally hundreds of millions of products use Bluetooth each year.  Maybe billions.

Secondly, the new Bluetooth or Lionchief upgrade product will be operable by a physical remote (also dirt cheap ) or an app on a smart device. 

Thirdly, it's backwardly compatible in that a Bluetooth or LionChief loco (whether track powered or battery) will be able to seamlessly operate on any layout: conventional, DCS, TMCC/Legacy.  Yes, you will need a second remote, separate from your older TMCC/Legacy/LionChief+ locos, but I don't see two remotes as being a major price to pay for improved simplicity, better reliability, and dramatically less expensive technology. Technology that will be around for a long, long time.

We'll see whether my crystal ball is working in the next few months to year.  Lionel will almost certainly offer an upgrade path for command of some sort, or license the technology to some third party, as they did with TMCC.  If not, they haven't thought things through .

palallin posted:
Ray Lombardo posted 

Fair point.  This is one of the reasons why I am surprised that so many folks seem resistant to the LCS and MTH applications for iPhone/Android.  The reality is that supporting the hardware behind these Legacy or DCS systems is not a winning or long-term idea from a business perspective given the constantly changing nature of technology, and if it can be done on a smart phone, that is a win-win for the customer and the manufacturer.  (This is what the founder of the ERR said in this thread, many pages ago as well.)  The customer gets a cheaper and more modern interface that is, frankly, nicer to use once you adapt to it.  The manufacturer gets out of the low margin, high-headache business of trying to source components for 20 year old technology. 

Not everyone has a smartphone, and I would hardly call the "interface" nicer:  it's too small, cramped, and difficult for many to use to use (eyesight, coordination, arthritis, . . .).

 

I would also add the "human interface" (fingers) can sometimes fail.  As I get older, it seems touch screens and buttons don't always respond on the first or second contact of my fingers.  Even years ago, sometimes I'd occasionally have to press an elevator "touch" button a couple of times before it would respond.

Yeah, I know I could get some touch screen finger covers or a stylus, but why bother when I'm fine with a hand held remote?

Rusty

MartyE posted:
modeltrainsparts posted:

Thank you, Marty.  Jim, referring to people with insulting nicknames is not necessary, and not productive.

I agree.  If we are going to get Lionel to listen the last thing we need is to be insulting and vulgar. 

I am 100% with you guys on this, lets not act like grumpy old men or spoiled children.

Ray

Even though Lionel stated that they will continue to supply TMCC product to Sunset/3rd Rail and Atlas-O will it continue to include the ERR cruise feature?  Also, despite the stated assurances to supply, has this announcement caused concern for Sunset/3rd Rail & Atlas-O for the continued long-term usage of a TMCC/ERR product that is 22yr/10yr old and possibly not going to get the same Lionel support as accustomed?  Are we approaching the time in Legacy's product cycle that Lionel will offer Legacy (full or limited version) to both Sunset/3rd Rail and Atlas-O?

Based on the very limited production of both Sunset and Atlas-O over the past few years, it would be interesting to know if the quantity of TMCC/ERR boards sold via Lionel/ERR to individuals is greater than the number sold to Sunset and Atlas combined? 

IIRC this forum discussed similar topics when Lionel first announced their Legacy system a few years ago.

We can all moan and groan but at the end of the day the decision has been made, the immediate uproar will subside, and the sun will rise.

The electric train collectors and operators have supported Lionel, in one business form or another, for a 117 years.

The current "Lionel" clearly doesn't give a darn about us electric train collectors and operators, any longer.

The complete absence of this "news" at the various Forums at York by Lionel's spokesperson, while thanking us for a great 2017, says it all.   

Hypocrisy and nothing but hypocrisy!

As a group, we either purchase their overpriced trains or we say "ENOUGH". In either event, it probably won't matter.

Now go and purchase your $2000 Niagara, or maybe not!

I might be a little backwards in some of the posts I'm reading, but reading on Bluetooth, WiFi, aren't those just control features? Can't those controls be incorporated into ERR kits in some way in near future? Also if Lionel will continue to supply Atlas and 3rd Rail with ERR products, who will do the replacement or repairs when these boards go bad? Will Atlas and 3rd Rail do the warranty work to repair and replace bad ERR systems?

Also if ERR kits are so far in the past, why are 2 great makers, Atlas and 3rd Rail still relying on these systems in newly produced engines? And why are so many satisfied with ERR products they have installed themselves?

ERR  may not be the best, but it gets the job done in what it does offer and has many, including myself moved up to Legacy and the newest engines and features that were produced and those I converted with ERR hold their own alongside these Legacys and Vision line engines. I can also attest, I've never had a engine that ERRs were installed in fail after years of running, can't say that about many of the other MTHs and Lionel premium engines cost double or 3 times as much.

 

Let see, there is TMCC, Legacy, Lionchief, Lionchief+, Bluetooth and don’t forget the myriad of one offs in early starter sets.  It costs money to keep supporting all these chosen different technologies hardware, firmware and software.  So the chosen path is to scale back on the Consumer TMCC base.  Given the size of Lionel compared the size of ERR, I’m perplexed at the decision to impact the large Consumer TMCC base Lionel has created.

 

Add me to the list of concerned hobbyists. I own several TMCC locomotives and don't plan to discard them, but am now concerned about availability of repairs and upgrades. I've had a few WBB engines converted to TMCC with ERR components but don't really have plans to do so with others. I'm stable and set, but worried what happens if/when something breaks down. 

At the same time, I've always had that concern with my PW engines, about 1/3 of my collection. 

I certainly don't begrudge Ken his retirement and wish him well. I appreciate Jon weighing in as the ERR founder. I can't blame him for selling his company to Lionel. 

I also see Lionel's perspective on this even if I don't like it. Apparently the economics aren't there for them to support older technology.  That said, I highly doubt that I would replace a failed engine with a Legacy item since I'm a semi-scale operator. LionChief + is attractive, and I do have one of them. I might add one or two here or there over time, but, if Legacy components take two days of labor incorporate, that's not worthwhile.  My brother-in-law has both DCS and TMCC engines and like both, so if DCS components are available, I may switch failed TMCC engines over to DCS and run both over time.

My hunch is that if there's sufficient demand, some enterprising entity will come up with a solution. It's a shame Lionel purchased ERR and locked up the technology. That's the sticking point for me. I don't mind them abandoning TMCC, but simultaneously preventing aftermarket support seems pretty heavy-handed.

Bottom line for me is all Lionel has to do to fix this fiasco is make a statement saying they are offering the ERR part of their business for sale for someone who wants to take it over. If what I read in this thread is true and that person worked out of their home thus cutting out a lot of overhead they could make a half way decent buck selling the ERR kits. 

OR Lionel could announce that they will offer new upgrade kits in the future that whether they be Lioncheif or Bluetooth will be compatible with the original TMCC system. It will be interesting to see if they do something with all this backlash. 

Good point. Here we have one person waiting for a specific horn sound. There are others, like me, who don't care whether I know, or my guests know, if this or that is exact. Heck, just say the shop needed a horn and took it off an older engine. Or disinvite them from your train room. Haha I have very limited interests in a command system. I want my locomotive to go, go faster, go slower, ring bell, sound horn, stop. That's it. No quilling. Now steam blow down. O gauge is so splintered with these specifics, or lack of them. Unlike the the scalers who, no matter the track gauge, accept and want a fairly homogeneous product. As Pogo said, "We have met the enemy and they is us!"

I emailed Lionel.  I counted last night that I have 16 locomotives that I planned to upgrade over the next couple years starting this summer, doing one every month or two.  Guess that's not happening.  Luckily most do still run conventionally, but I do have a couple that are dead and are just paper weights unless I can upgrade them.  Some are saying it's because of retirement that this is happening.  If that's the case, is anyone willing to step up and do the logistics?  I'd be willing, but since it'd be a 2nd job, it'll only happen in the evenings, and since I'm out west, that means middle of the night for most of the country.  As for Lionel offering a different path to upgrade, Bluetooth and LC are non-starters in my book.  I have zero interest in using my phone to run my trains.  And I do not like LC controls at all.  My 3 year old even rather use a Cab-1 over the LC remote.  TMCC may be old, but if it ain't broke, don't fix it.  I hope Lionel will allow some other 3rd party to develop and take this market instead of shutting it down with lawyers.  Perhaps they can work with John and offer a complete feature upgrade kit.  But I'm no longer holding my breath.  I'm also probably not buying anything new for a very long time as this has pretty well iced any fun and excitement I had in the future of this hobby as now instead of expanding and working on the path I had laid out for my layout, I now have to go back to the drawing board and start over as one of the stake poles was just removed and my plans are fallen to the floor.

One ever thing I have thought about. If Lionel doesn't change their minds I might sell every o gauge engine I have and switch to HO. I would hate to do this but I do not want to be stuck with a bunch of broken shelf queens.  I have been checking into HO since I found out about this and I am impressed with what I have found so far. Hopefully a solution will be found before I have to do this.

Unless there is something in the wings, this will kill the idea of anyone wanting older engines from any source if they have any remote system(unless they go DCS or whatever other options out there) on there layout. We can speculate all we want, but as my local dealer has stated several times in the past few years, "They don't really tell us anything that they should" or "Yeah, they really screwed up big time and now they are scrambling". 

I can't help but think that this is more severe than when they stopped making Standard gauge.

I'm not happy about this event - not at all. 

Like others, I'm not blaming Ken for retiring.  But there needs to be a way of continuing the ERR upgrade path.  TrainAmerica, Digital Dynamics, and now ERR?  There really needs to be a path for upgrades.  Certain regions will freeze over before I return to DCS.  And purchasing Legacy locomotives with huge price tags is not a palatable option either - especially given that the locomotive I want is not available with Legacy.

I've written to Lionel and expressed my displeasure.  They need to step up and do the right thing.

George

Alex M posted:
J Daddy posted:
Alex M posted:

I generally don't speak out often BUT !!,  this is so disheartening, simple solution ! place the ERR inventory in Lionel existing inventory problem solved. The product is still going to be produced on a regular basis for Atlas and 3rd rail locos, so why not continue to produce it for the consumer. I use it on a daily basis for my customers, how much more of a HIT is this hobby going to take. Cannot believe that such a quick decision has been made just to end ERR, this is a sad day !!!!!!!!!!!!

Alex

You know what they say Alex. When one door closes. Two more open. A solution will be found and in the long run it will only hurt Lionel. 

Yes John i totally agree , this quick trigger decision by the top brass of Lionel, will 1000 percent only hurt them. Unfortunately it's going to hurt me pretty bad.

Not only hurt you, Alex and your JADA Enterprises, but also hurt the other 83 ERR authorized installers who are listed on ERR Company's website and might rely on the installations they've been doing to provide them with a source of possibly needed additional income.

And as an aside, if Lionel doesn't make accommodations to their decision, hopefully folks like GRG will continue innovating the the 3 rail hobby market and continue developing non-tmcc related and dependent  products such as his led lighting kits which 3 rail hobbyists find useful and enhance the enjoyment of our trains. 

Last edited by ogaugeguy

Why does it matter if TMCC is 25 years old or 2 years old? Aren't the relevant criteria whether it serves a useful role in the hobby and whether it's profitable for Lionel (or whoever) to offer it?

I think it's abundantly clear that it's useful--whether for upgrading conventional or PS1 locomotives to command, giving new life to older locos with failed electronics, adding speed control to early TMCC locos, or bringing command control to operating cars, accessories, or switches. As has been pointed out, the technology continues to perform well in new locomotives from Atlas and 3rd Rail. Lionel itself continues to catalog products with TMCC, including motorized units and accessories.

Regarding profitability, Lionel has stated that the ERR line was profitable, if only marginally. It might be more profitable as part of Lionel's regular product line than as a stand-alone business. In addition, the synergy it has with Lionel's other products and the goodwill it creates cannot be quantified, but should be taken into account.

Finally, why does it matter, as some have said, whether you're using a remote or an app to run your trains? TMCC products can be controlled by Lionel's iCab or iPad apps or MTH's DCS app, along as you have a TMCC command base as part of your system.

Why does it matter if TMCC is 25 years old or 2 years old? Aren't the relevant criteria whether it serves a useful role in the hobby and whether it's profitable for Lionel (or whoever) to offer it?

Actually the relevant criteria is whether or not the parts are still being produced.  If there's a component on the board that is no longer made then it's going to be tough getting it reproduced or finding a substitute.  Everyone from our toy train companies to the U.S. military runs into the same issue.  I've seen ships "borrow" parts from the ship berthed next to them so they can get underway because the lead time for getting a circuit board made can be in years and they can't wait that long.

The next criteria is...who are they going to get to make it?  If the person presently making them retires, they have to possibly hire/train another person, takes time/money.

I can't find a battery for my 1965 Pentax, do I stop taking photos or do I buy a newer camera and continue to enjoy my hobby, the choice is ours.

There's always a work-a-round.

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