The death of the TMCC upgrade

shawn posted:

CurtisH posted:

My take after reading 10 pages.

Lionel made a business decision which they know reason for not us.

Almost everyone is upset. Some more some less.

Everyone seems to have the answer but how can you know an answer with out knowing the full equation of the problem. That is speculation.

I am always amazed at some people who are die hard in on camp. ( MTH, Lionel, DCC )

Crying seems to be the easy solution. It helps our own feelings but really? As has been stated many many times, IT IS NOT THE END OF THE WORLD. There could be a lot of different scenarios that play out or maybe nothing. Can we change to a smaller scale? Sure but some of us can NOT! Our hands are too shaky and our eyes are starting to fail. At the last York show my wife and I had an interesting conversation based on ONE question. Average age of people attending. We figure low to mid 60's. With this in mind and keeping on track with ERR, It makes me realize that some like myself have just returned to the hobby. Others are and have been in for the long haul. Some an afford new engines others can not. For me I would have to buy older new or used engines and possibly get them converted with ERR or some other system. Now with ERR going out I have to wonder as everyone else is -"What are my options?" OUR options are few or many based on each persons PERSONAL feelings. I believe like others that more options are out there or going to come. You can NOT have major train manufacturers installing a system that is going to be extinct in new engines and make sales. SOMEONE is going to step up and either change those systems to an existing one or a new one. Atlas and 3rd Rail can't live on history parts that may no longer be. They, as has been said, are in the same situation we are. Me? I look forward with hope and even some joy. Sure I am upset and sad about the past but it is the past. Just as WE get old so does technology hence the need for change. EVERYONE COMPLAINED WHEN PASSENGER SERVICE DIED with each individual railroad but how many support what is today? IF we support what comes it can be better and greater for everyone including most of all THE HOBBY. AS WE GET OLDER WE NEED TO SUPPORT THE HOBBY! We are like the museums and Preservationist for the FUTURE generations. Our job is to ride the rails and enjoy the ride as 

????? Yes, and a Company to listen to the wants of it's buyers within reason! To sell a quality product at a reasonable price that meets the customers expectations... To  "support" the product for  a reasonable amount of time that the consumer is comfortable purchasing the product ......Well, we are starting to feel uncomfortable given the pricing. In some cases the quality...and "Now" the support.

I plan on popping my dislike on their FB page tonight when I get home. Just have to get my brain working on exactly what to say. 

Have they responded back on emails with the usual "thank you for your concern" BS? I'm sure that will probably be the extent of their answer, but we can hope they take time to give a solid explanation and alternatives if they have one.

Just to keep the pages growing to express concern over this decision.  Since not all manufactures make the same engines I guess a permanent non functioning model is now a standard option since there was no choice before.  I have many older locomotives that were built either before the technology or licenses were worked out that were going to be converted as needed. 

Even if money were no object I doubt many (if any) of the more unusual items (mainly steam) will ever be built again by either system supplier.  Thus the need for a way to reasonably upgrade to a command system.

This is not good.

Lionel as a company is doing things that disturb me first Mike Reagan leaving because of path lionel took with customer service. Lionel no longer fixes out of warranty products like tmcc and legacy they no longer training technicians to work on out warranty trains and the few that do fix them are swamped with work. Lionel also decides to end err why? It's the only market to fix and upgrade your investment last time I looked we still buy new lionel trains.the new products coming out are not built the same and usually in the past 3 years I have to send them back to lionel to fix new in the box engines that somehow past quality control without inspection couplers lose in the box on sd40s sd90 with capacitors lose in engine smoke units quitting for no reason then after warranty ends they wont even take the engine to fix even if I'm willing to pay a fee smh

has anyone received a reply from lionel?

hhitchcock@lionel.com

I have not.

Maybe slightly off-topic, but if you are looking for an upgrade path... consider getting away from the proprietary protocols entirely and go DCC.

I made this move a while back when I was looking at going digital with a roster that included Lionel, MTH, Atlas, and Williams of various vintages. No way to run all of those on proprietary protocols. Went DCC and have been loving it ever since.

I use ESU Loksound L decoders in my locos, and they have sounds and motor control that really do put Lionel and MTH to shame (not to mention a bunch of other features). Their programmer is great, comes with a really slick PC app, and there are a ton of sound files available for download.

It's a shame the O scale market is so fragmented in this way.

wb47 posted:

Just a dumb question here, but why not just raise the price of the ERR kits significantly, thereby excluding all but the most desirable saves of old equipment?

Yes, that is dumb!
It is hard enough trying to afford this stuff as it is! Now, you want to up the ante?

bigdodgetrain posted:

has anyone received a reply from lionel?

 hhitchcock@lionel.com

I have not.

I haven't (I wrote to TalkToUs, not HH, and only got the auto-acknowledgment) but I don't regard that as necessarily a bad thing. It may indicate that they are reviewing the position; they certainly cannot just proceed as if nothing has happened. I expect that they have also been on the receiving end of notices from dealers about cancelled pre-orders and as some of those relate to the Vision Niagara that is no small hit. 

I don't want to sound defeatest that we should give up efforts concerning the ERR decision, but if you're a Facebook user who gets regular updates from Lionel, you've surely noticed that in the comment section there are many first time Lionel set buyers who've spent $300+ for starter sets and discover they have to attempt to contact Lionel to return them due to quality control issues. It is brutal.

To ignore those customers' comments and also our concerns, I fear that the Lionel L.L.C. executive management team is shortsighted, dense, arrogant or all three - especially since a Feb. 10,2016 Wall Street Journal article quoted "Lionel still makes authentic trains and associated gear for serious hobbyists, who account for about 60% of sales.".
The fact that we, those serious hobbyists, who are in an uproar over this ERR fiasco, are so far being ignored by Lionel is unfathomable.

Btw everyone, if you're registered on the social media employee site LinkedIn, you might want to view the professional credentials of the two Lionel, L.L.C. executives, Chris Elrod and Howard Hitchcock who are in charge of this decision at Lionel as well as Michelle Fannin, Lionel's Sr. Director of Marketing.
Also, send a message voicing your concern and dissatisfaction with the ERR decision to Michelle Fannin who can be reached by phone at 704.454.4162 or email:
mfannin@lionel.com

NHVRYGray posted:

Just to keep the pages growing to express concern over this decision.  Since not all manufactures make the same engines I guess a permanent non functioning model is now a standard option since there was no choice before.  I have many older locomotives that were built either before the technology or licenses were worked out that were going to be converted as needed.

This is one of the big reasons I went with DCC. Any loco from any manufacturer and any vintage can be readily converted. I have locos from the early 90s forward that are now DCC equipped, and they run and sound better than new MTH and Lionel stuff.

It also really opens up the used market for me. For instance, I just bought a really nice MTH Shay from 1997 and installed a decoder in it for a grand total of about $500. Now it looks like I may be stocking up on some 'obsolete' Lionel locos as well... 

ogaugeguy posted:

I don't want to sound defeatest that we should give up efforts concerning the ERR decision, but if you're a Facebook user who gets regular updates from Lionel, you've surely noticed that in the comment section there are many first time Lionel set buyers who've spent $300+ for starter sets and discover they have to attempt to contact Lionel to return them due to quality control issues. It is brutal.

To ignore those customers' comments and also our concerns, I fear that the Lionel L.L.C. executive management team is shortsighted, dense, arrogant or all three - especially since a Feb. 10,2016 Wall Street Journal article quoted "Lionel still makes authentic trains and associated gear for serious hobbyists, who account for about 60% of sales.".
The fact that we, those serious hobbyists, who are in an uproar over this ERR fiasco, are so far being ignored by Lionel is unfathomable.

Btw everyone, if you're registered on the social media employee site LinkedIn, you might want to view the professional credentials of the two Lionel, L.L.C. executives, Chris Elrod and Howard Hitchcock who are in charge of this decision at Lionel as well as Michelle Fannin, Lionel's Sr. Director of Marketing.
Also, send a message voicing your concern and dissatisfaction with the ERR decision to Michelle Fannin who can be reached by phone at 704.454.4162 or email:
mfannin@lionel.com

Interesting that there is not one iota of experience between the three of them in such a minor and specialized area of interest as the world of toy and model trains. Just a passing interest would have been nice.

hhitchcock@lionel.com

Anyone start posting on Lionel's Facebook page? 

No real reason IMO that makes sense has surfaced yet for the ERR shutdown.  If you’re not making money, raise prices.  Based on this thread demand doesn’t seem to be a problem.  I’m guessing folks would pay more to keep ERR open.  Seems obvious then that keeping ERR open doesn’t fit with future business plans.  If there was a positive consumer message in the future business plan, why not announce or hint at it now to avoid all this fuss.  Based on this logic, TMCC folks are not going to like the future plan either ?

When Lionchief was introduced my first thought was that Legacy control would be in trouble some day. As folks have mastered the use of Legacy control, which I acquired with the JLC Big Boy, and the subsequent updates, modules and for me the learning curve, I found Lionchief to be easy and fun. Not as many features yes but stupid proof. And now Bluetooth which is user friendly and easily updated seems to be the future. I myself have spent at least $50 to $60,000 on Lionel since the late 90's. I don't have a layout but do enjoy collecting and admiring them in the cabinets and displays in my cave. I run Lionchief and postwar Lionel for the 4 weeks of Christmas but that's about it. Now with Lionel's Bluetooth app up and running and included with/in Lionel's upcoming Legacy/Vision releases it makes me wonder if those confusing Legacy 990 handhelds are here to stay? Lets face it, our TMCC holdings won't be the only "shelf queens" in our collections. Legacy loco's without Bluetooth will be the next has-been IMHO.      I respect Lionel for their business decisions but don't have to like them...        

Look in your mirrors, we're not Lionel's future... Throw away trains are... We're buying them now...

P.S. I love conventionally/transformer controlled pre and postwar trains.

I'll start listing my modern trains on eBay this weekend. It's hard to sell things out of my collection but I've found that after I've shipped sold items off I don't miss them a bit, funny thing...        

I stopped buying new Legacy about a year ago... Too much $$$ for future shelf models...

superwarp1 posted:

Anyone start posting on Lionel's Facebook page? 

There are at least three Facebook pages for Lionel Trains. One is the company's own page: Lionel Trains (featuring the Lionel logo), another is Lionel Train forum (featuring a slightly modified Lionel logo) and a third much smaller site called Lionel Trains which features no Lionel logo.

While Lionel management might seem indifferent to our outcries on train forums such as OGR, they might be more sensitive to postings on social media sites like Facebook.

Could be TMCC is just the first shoe to drop.  Maybe someday there Bluetooth with an interface box to LCS ?

I agree Kenn, posting on their FB page will raise eyebrows of all who frequent it. I myself have not popped on their page I think since some time in January, but that is just because there was no real reason to.

I will say about their Customer Service, at least from my simple questions I have asked, that the last three I sent over didn't even get the auto reply. I thought maybe it was some crazy issue the first time, second time it started to annoy me, third time just was the last straw. Granted my question were not serious stuff, I think I had popped them as other. I wish I could remember what they were, but without a reply, that puts it in the garbage. Its too hard to try and remember what I had asked back in August/September area.

I do hope that by posting on their FB, it will not systematically get deleted because they don't want to address it. Also, in posting on their page, would there be a character limit? I do know that when I had replied off a friend's post some ages ago, I had to make my message into two separate posts.

Whatever goes on they definitely have to give answers to what is being asked and consider a new option to replace what was probably one of the best alternatives in the industries. If nothing new comes this will leave more engines sitting on the shelf unless people wish to run conventional. My Uncle who is 73 will only run conventional because 100% of what he owns is from the mid-1980's or older. He has no reason to seek any upgrades and he is fine with that. Me, most of what I owe is from the 1990's and on, so there are a few things that it would be nice to have an option that Lionel offers. Hopefully they get on the right track, find the map, or get on the right page. Might as well make cars like the Flintstone's cars to compare to this.

Hancock52 posted:

I haven't (I wrote to TalkToUs, not HH, and only got the auto-acknowledgment) but I don't regard that as necessarily a bad thing. It may indicate that they are reviewing the position; they certainly cannot just proceed as if nothing has happened. I expect that they have also been on the receiving end of notices from dealers about cancelled pre-orders and as some of those relate to the Vision Niagara that is no small hit. 

Pretty sure all those cancelled pre-orders generally get stuck with the dealer they are cancelled with, not Lionel.

That's why some dealers charged non-refundable deposits, to lessen the risk of people bailing "just because" in between order time and delivery time. ("I didn't have the money saved", "I changed my mind", "manufacturer X made one I liked better", etc.)

While the reasoning for cancelling now has got serious substance based on the ERR announcement, I suspect it has zero impact on the amount of product that Lionel will extract payment from dealers based on the pre-orders (assuming all items are delivered and not entirely cancelled from production - in that case, obviously a dealer isn't charged for a product that doesn't get made).  I suspect everyone who has cancelled the last few days is sticking their dealer with an unsold product, not Lionel.

-Dave

Dave45681 posted:

Hancock52 posted:

I haven't (I wrote to TalkToUs, not HH, and only got the auto-acknowledgment) but I don't regard that as necessarily a bad thing. It may indicate that they are reviewing the position; they certainly cannot just proceed as if nothing has happened. I expect that they have also been on the receiving end of notices from dealers about cancelled pre-orders and as some of those relate to the Vision Niagara that is no small hit. 

Pretty sure all those cancelled pre-orders generally get stuck with the dealer they are cancelled with, not Lionel.

That's why some dealers charged non-refundable deposits, to lessen the risk of people bailing "just because" in between order time and delivery time. ("I didn't have the money saved", "I changed my mind", "manufacturer X made one I liked better", etc.)

While the reasoning for cancelling now has got serious substance based on the ERR announcement, I suspect it has zero impact on the amount of product that Lionel will extract payment from dealers based on the pre-orders (assuming all items are delivered and not entirely cancelled from production - in that case, obviously a dealer isn't charged for a product that doesn't get made).  I suspect everyone who has cancelled the last few days is sticking their dealer with an unsold product, not Lionel.

-Dave

Taking into consideration what you've mentioned in your last paragraph, Dave45681, it is unfortunate those dealers will be be the collateral damage of this just cause during this uproar, but I've no doubt those same dealers, as well as others, will let Lionel know what they presently think of the ERR decision not only by their words but also by their limited future orders from Lionel and those distributors Lionel uses.

THE BEAN COUNTERS NOW HAVE CONTROL !

They have, and for longer than everyone thinks.

My dealer won’t take the hit. He will send it back to Lionel and tell them why. We are in a transition time for trains and lots of manufacturers are trying to make the move to direct to consumer including Athearn for HO. I think Lionel is making this move but in order to be successful they need to shock and awe their customers in a good way. 

shorling posted:

No real reason IMO that makes sense has surfaced yet for the ERR shutdown.  If you’re not making money, raise prices.  Based on this thread demand doesn’t seem to be a problem.  I’m guessing folks would pay more to keep ERR open.  Seems obvious then that keeping ERR open doesn’t fit with future business plans.  If there was a positive consumer message in the future business plan, why not announce or hint at it now to avoid all this fuss.  Based on this logic, TMCC folks are not going to like the future plan either ?

Very good post. All points are right on the money. 

bigdodgetrain posted:

has anyone received a reply from lionel?

 

hhitchcock@lionel.com

I have not.

Haven't heard a peep since sending my email to them.

Nick

I'm going to spread the blame around a bit; maybe someone above has already, but: back in the early 3RO Command days, we had a company offering open, licensed access (not worrying with all the legal nuances, here) to a rather friendly system - TMCC. The other Big Player in the room as determined to continue on his own DCC-like path: DCS. Had this player decided to license TMCC (as a few others did), perhaps - just perhaps - TMCC and its descendants  woulda/coulda become the true, non-proprietary Standard of 3RO command control, and filled the DCC role (but more simply, rationally and dependably). Not actually blaming you Mr. W., and the above does have some holes, but, geez, thanks a lot. I still don't use DCS - but those ERR-converted PS1/PS2(one) locos are sure nice. Great models. 

I was just scanning the for sale board and there are two Weaver conrail locos for a terrific price I probably would have gone after.  Great ERR upgrade items.  Alas, that is no longer an option.  I wonder if this corporate change will have an unintended consequence of pushing prices for older locos lower still?

I have over 60 Engines of which 15 are Legacy. The rest are TMCC & a few Conventional. Some of those were originally purchased with TMCC, the rest are Williams & MTH that were converted to TMCC thru TAS and ERR Boards. I still have a few I was going to convert to TMCC. I guess that's out the WINDOW now. I have a great number of the ERR Boards that I have personally installed for other applications in Boxcars. I guess I won't be doing any of those either any more!!! One of my "MAJOR" Concerns is if any of the ERR boards goes "BAD", what do I do? Especially the Boards in any of the Engines as it will create a "SHELF QUEEN" !!!!! I DO NOT Use DCS.

FREDSTRAINS (Very Troubled)

shawn posted:

josef posted:

MartyE posted:

.

  I'd like to thank OGR for letting this thread to continue as it really does impact a great deal of the folks on this forum.  I'd like to thanks Lionel for hopefully at minimal listening to our concerns. Mainly I'd like to thank the forum itself for what is for the most part a civil discussion on a hot topic.

10 pages...who would of ever thunk it?

That part says a lot, on concerns on this subject, and the quality of posters who maybe angry, upset on this subject, yet stayed civil in their statements on this. Also OGR for letting us continue on this matter. Hopefully Lionel will listen and see the impact this decision has made on our Hobby.

yes, civility has it's merits. But, the best protest is to hit them in the pocket book. They only made 5000.00. Well, 10G lost on my purchases this coming year. 

Amen brother. 

Well, looks like it's time to sell it all, and go into N scale and DCC!! ;-)

Rick

Fredstrains posted:

I have over 60 Engines of which 15 are Legacy. The rest are TMCC & a few Conventional. Some of those were originally purchased with TMCC, the rest are Williams & MTH that were converted to TMCC thru TAS and ERR Boards. I still have a few I was going to convert to TMCC. I guess that's out the WINDOW now. I have a great number of the ERR Boards that I have personally installed for other applications in Boxcars. I guess I won't be doing any of those either any more!!! One of my "MAJOR" Concerns is if any of the ERR boards goes "BAD", what do I do? Especially the Boards in any of the Engines as it will create a "SHELF QUEEN" !!!!! I DO NOT Use DCS.

FREDSTRAINS (Very Troubled)

Western Depot still has a few EER conversions. You might see if any fit your needs.

ogaugeguy posted:

I don't want to sound defeatest that we should give up efforts concerning the ERR decision, but if you're a Facebook user who gets regular updates from Lionel, you've surely noticed that in the comment section there are many first time Lionel set buyers who've spent $300+ for starter sets and discover they have to attempt to contact Lionel to return them due to quality control issues. It is brutal.

To ignore those customers' comments and also our concerns, I fear that the Lionel L.L.C. executive management team is shortsighted, dense, arrogant or all three - especially since a Feb. 10,2016 Wall Street Journal article quoted "Lionel still makes authentic trains and associated gear for serious hobbyists, who account for about 60% of sales.".
The fact that we, those serious hobbyists, who are in an uproar over this ERR fiasco, are so far being ignored by Lionel is unfathomable.

Btw everyone, if you're registered on the social media employee site LinkedIn, you might want to view the professional credentials of the two Lionel, L.L.C. executives, Chris Elrod and Howard Hitchcock who are in charge of this decision at Lionel as well as Michelle Fannin, Lionel's Sr. Director of Marketing.
Also, send a message voicing your concern and dissatisfaction with the ERR decision to Michelle Fannin who can be reached by phone at 704.454.4162 or email:
mfannin@lionel.com

The line about the 60% of sales coming from "Serious Hobbyists" is a tell of sorts IMO, I suspect that translates to the people who are willing to put out a lot of $$$$ on high end scale equipment ie legacy engines and the like, and given that the margins on these is likely pretty high, they see that as their bread and butter. A marginal business like ERR, that returns relatively little, isn't going to be on their radar in that kind of model, they are focusing on the cash cows.  That is not uncommon in business, customers who buy low end cars, the lower end of the product line, are generally not treated as well or focused upon like the people who buy cash cows like SUV's, Luxury level cars and the like.  The car industry builds those lower level cars for more than a few reasons, they don't make a lot of money on them, but for example the small,. fuel efficient cars with the low margins helps them meet the federal CAFE standards, but more importantly they see users who move up from the low end when they can.....speculating, it could be Lionel feels like the people who upgrade old engines via ERR are not going to be customers for their cash cow business. With the LC line they may not make as much money as they do with legacy, but they probably see this, not the traditional runner and the person upgrading old engines, as the path to legacy ownership, buy LC, get excited and you just want that Legacy vision line engine....I could argue that, but that is what it looks like to me.  Problem is it may end up backfiring on them, they may not understand that people buying legacy equipment also might love upgrading older equipment, and also might dissuade people from buying anything Lionel if they see this as a slap in the face or something...

Nothing wrong about speculating, but at this point I also think it is unwise to condemn Lionel to purgatory without knowing the end game (the fact that they haven't said makes me think it is what it looks like, but I could be wrong, very wrong). The interesting part to me is if Lionel a)ends err b)doesn't allow a third market firm to take that over c)ends soon the contracts with Atlas and Third rail for TMCC and d)doesn't offer legacy as a replacement in terms of upgrades or to Atlas and Third rail, that could lead to something quite different. You could see Bachman, Atlas and Third rail throw support behind DCC, offering products as they do with HO that either have DCC built in or have the NMRA standard plug (and can run conventional as well, which is not exactly rocket science), which in turn might open up a cottage market to upgrade to DCC. Given that MTH already offers DCC on a lot of their engines (I don't know if all PS3 also supports DCC, haven't paid attention), that could end up backfiring on Lionel if people head that way. It would be nice to have the choice, and Legacy only engines could end up being the one left out in that scenario. 

Given my experience with marketing types, I wouldn't be surprised if the powers that be at Lionel saw Legacy-only as "marketing gold" then find out it angered the very peple they are targeting, has happened before plenty of times, marketing people live in their own universe. 

machinist posted:

bigdodgetrain posted:

has anyone received a reply from lionel?

 

hhitchcock@lionel.com

I have not.

Haven't heard a peep since sending my email to them.

Nick

And you probably won't. They really don't care what a few have to say ( my guess less than 300 ) compare to the thousands that don't seem to know a thing about this ( as I have not even seen a peep about this on the other forum I visit. ) 

Everyone....Dave Olson from Lionel has just informed me that he is posting an official announcement from Howard Hitchcock concerning the future of the ERR products.  I have made that announcement a featured topic across all categories on the forum. Here is the link: https://ogrforum.com/...on-electric-railroad 

In addition, Derek Thomas, the OP of this thread has asked me to close this thread.  If you want to comment on the announcement from the announcement referred to above from Lionel, please start a new thread.

Thanks,

Alan