The death of the TMCC upgrade

lol, 3 control systems - none that talk to each other - they should have stayed with just tmcc/ legacy..

MrMoe50 posted:

ogaugeguy posted:

So, if lack of profit is truly the real reason for this decision, I'm curious what, if any attempts have been made by Lionel to sell off this losing ERR entity as many other companies have done with financially draining segments of their companies? It would be great if Mike Reagan, (should he want to,) be able to take back contol of this tmcc upgrading baby he once gave birth to.

Mike Reagan?  I thought ERR was Jon Zahornacky‘s baby?

Mike Reagan started a company called Train America Studios that sold many TMCC upgrade products before Mike went to work for Lionel and closed that business as a result.  While they didn't offer boards, the same came to be for Lou Kovach's previous company (IC Controls) that was the original source of the TPC units and other components. 

-Dave

cjack posted:

Oh...didn't know Jon left. Where did he go...still trains?

Retired from Lionel in January as full time employee.  Dave Olson said at the meeting that Jon remains as a Lionel sub-contractor to support some projects.

-Dave

Dave45681 posted:

The bottom line is this company needs another interested owner like Richard Kughn in charge right now, not a financial company that couldn't care less if they are making model trains vs. pencils or paper plates.

-Dave

This is exactly what needs to happen. I don't see that white knight this time though.

Pete

Wow. That's terrible. It's frustrating enough there's hardly any other aftermarket TMCC/RS boards out there. If Lionel wants to blame poor profits on their decision, my question is what did they do to help support ERR? The product line, although very good, has pretty much stayed the same since ERR came to be. For example, the 'SD' sound board is fairly generic, based on SD50 sounds, I believe. I've been wanting to upgrade my KCC SD75 sound for years, but kept putting it off because I was hoping for something with a more accurate horn. I might have to pull the trigger now and make due. Maybe adding some new product would have helped. Who knows......

It was announced Friday morning that as of May of 2018, Lionel plans to cease operations of
The Electric Railroad Company, effectively ending the market for TMCC upgrade kits.
Some details were shared as to why the decision was made, the overwhelming reason being the
very small contribution that ERR provides to the bottom line of Lionel.

I knew IT! Once Jon Retired from Lionel in Jan I new it was just a matter of time!  Just like Train America! De Ja Voo Doo!

And MTH PS upgrades may be in Jepardy too!  Afterall, Why create more competition with the old product upgrades!

OR  Mike and Andy could Crank up More PS3 Kit production and create more sales of their DCS system!

The whole thing stinks --- so now you're telling me we've all invested in a control system that if something breaks we can't fix it ???

Am I understanding this correctly ???

Nice Lionel

Probably the first time in my life I've been truly disappointed in a train company

I generally don't speak out often BUT !!,  this is so disheartening, simple solution ! place the ERR inventory in Lionel existing inventory problem solved. The product is still going to be produced on a regular basis for Atlas and 3rd rail locos, so why not continue to produce it for the consumer. I use it on a daily basis for my customers, how much more of a HIT is this hobby going to take. Cannot believe that such a quick decision has been made just to end ERR, this is a sad day !!!!!!!!!!!!

Alex

Alex M posted:

I generally don't speak out often BUT !!,  this is so disheartening, simple solution ! place the ERR inventory in Lionel existing inventory problem solved. The product is still going to be produced on a regular basis for Atlas and 3rd rail locos, so why not continue to produce it for the consumer. I use it on a daily basis for my customers, how much more of a HIT is this hobby going to take. Cannot believe that such a quick decision has been made just to end ERR, this is a sad day !!!!!!!!!!!!

Alex

You know what they say Alex. When one door closes. Two more open. A solution will be found and in the long run it will only hurt Lionel. 

J Daddy posted:

Alex M posted:

I generally don't speak out often BUT !!,  this is so disheartening, simple solution ! place the ERR inventory in Lionel existing inventory problem solved. The product is still going to be produced on a regular basis for Atlas and 3rd rail locos, so why not continue to produce it for the consumer. I use it on a daily basis for my customers, how much more of a HIT is this hobby going to take. Cannot believe that such a quick decision has been made just to end ERR, this is a sad day !!!!!!!!!!!!

Alex

You know what they say Alex. When one door closes. Two more open. A solution will be found and in the long run it will only hurt Lionel. 

Yes John i totally agree , this quick trigger decision by the top brass of Lionel, will 1000 percent only hurt them. Unfortunately it's going to hurt me pretty bad.

What REALLY Sucks is this "decision" only gives a Week to Buyout ANY inventory for any FUTURE projects! Who has the cash lying around to do that? [ Taxes, York, April Deals from vendors, etc.]

Originally posted by Alex M:


Yes John I totally agree , this quick trigger decision by the top brass of Lionel,

will 1000 percent only hurt them. Unfortunately it's going to hurt me pretty bad.

HOME OF THE JADA RAILROAD

Know How to Install Ps3?

Protest! Stop buying ...It's that simple!

I 100% agree this is a poor decision. I will be writing as well to Lionel management. I encourage everyone here with the pitch forks to do the same otherwise you are just background noise. This is a decision above those who correspond with us on this board. I also encourage those writing to be respectful but firm. Otherwise again your point will have less impact. 

While I can certainly see some of the smaller items being retired, engine upgrades should be at minimal available. 

Well that's it! I just smashed my NASCAR Mega Traxx popcorn tin I'm so mad!

Lionel is now setting a presedence of not supporting existing and FUTURE products.

I am now canceling my 2018 orders.

This is heartbreaking news, I have done a number of TMCC conversions of my own and for other club members, now Lionel hangs us out to dry. Sad Sad Day. TMCC put new life in this hobby for many of us, now Lionel removes the heart.

Ray

robmcc posted:

Wow. That's terrible. It's frustrating enough there's hardly any other aftermarket TMCC/RS boards out there. If Lionel wants to blame poor profits on their decision, my question is what did they do to help support ERR? The product line, although very good, has pretty much stayed the same since ERR came to be. For example, the 'SD' sound board is fairly generic, based on SD50 sounds, I believe. I've been wanting to upgrade my KCC SD75 sound for years, but kept putting it off because I was hoping for something with a more accurate horn. I might have to pull the trigger now and make due. Maybe adding some new product would have helped. Who knows......

Rob, I'm not trying to pick on you here, but your points show how often we fall into the "don't know what you've got until it's gone" scenario.

In the past, you were worried about the offerings not being as specific as you would like.

Well, Lionel says no problem, we will just stop offering them all together.  And now the first option looks a lot better, even if the horn wasn't quite right.

As much as die hard hobbyists may have had a use for specific sound sets for different engines, I have a feeling the market is small enough for upgrades, making more specific ones available might have made it even less financially feasible for them to offer.

-Dave

"Mike Reagan?  I thought ERR was Jon Zahornacky‘s baby?"

That is correct.

I would not be surprised if this decision is reversed or modified.  For those not around in 2000 or so, Mike Wolf was absolutely adamant that PS2 retrofit kits would not be made.  That decision didn't last long when the howls of dissatisfaction were heard.  Let's let Lionel know this isn't a good decision and the result may be similar .

I was needless to say, bummed out by hearing this news.  I will doubtless have to discontinue my Super-Chuffer and Chuff-Generator as not having TMCC upgrades makes them kinda' moot.  I will obviously be emphasizing my PS/3 upgrade business since that's now the only command/control upgrade path it would appear.  I discount BlueTooth at the present as I still haven't seen an O-gauge product.  Sure makes me wonder why I didn't go with HO and standard control systems!

I'll be taking a close look at the MTH catalogs for my future purchases, hard to justify rewarding Lionel for jerking the rug out!

This might sound improbable, but it's obvious from reading the posts of folks on 3 rail train forums and seeing the layouts some have had built for themselves along with the sizes of many collections they and others have that more than  a handful of 3 railers are financially prosperous. So what would be the possibility of a group of them along with some of the major retailers of Lionel products possibly forming a consortium and make Lionel an offer to purchase the ERR business?

@Notch 6 

Derek do we have a more direct email to Howard?  While Talk to Us has worked in the past, an important matter like this seems to need a more direct route. 

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

What REALLY Sucks is this "decision" only gives a Week to Buyout ANY inventory for any FUTURE projects! Who has the cash lying around to do that? [ Taxes, York, April Deals from vendors, etc.]

Originally posted by Alex M:

Yes John I totally agree , this quick trigger decision by the top brass of Lionel,

will 1000 percent only hurt them. Unfortunately it's going to hurt me pretty bad.

HOME OF THE JADA RAILROAD

Know How to Install Ps3?

Won't hurt me..more money in my pocket! They just forced me into proto upgrades. 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I was needless to say, bummed out by hearing this news.  I will doubtless have to discontinue my Super-Chuffer and Chuff-Generator as not having TMCC upgrades makes them kinda' moot.  I will obviously be emphasizing my PS/3 upgrade business since that's now the only command/control upgrade path it would appear.  I discount BlueTooth at the present as I still haven't seen an O-gauge product.  Sure makes me wonder why I didn't go with HO and standard control systems!

I'll be taking a close look at the MTH catalogs for my future purchases, hard to justify rewarding Lionel for jerking the rug out!

You should be! Not good for your bottom line.

Dave45681 posted:

robmcc posted:

Wow. That's terrible. It's frustrating enough there's hardly any other aftermarket TMCC/RS boards out there. If Lionel wants to blame poor profits on their decision, my question is what did they do to help support ERR? The product line, although very good, has pretty much stayed the same since ERR came to be. For example, the 'SD' sound board is fairly generic, based on SD50 sounds, I believe. I've been wanting to upgrade my KCC SD75 sound for years, but kept putting it off because I was hoping for something with a more accurate horn. I might have to pull the trigger now and make due. Maybe adding some new product would have helped. Who knows......

Rob, I'm not trying to pick on you here, but your points show how often we fall into the "don't know what you've got until it's gone" scenario.

In the past, you were worried about the offerings not being as specific as you would like.

Well, Lionel says no problem, we will just stop offering them all together.  And now the first option looks a lot better, even if the horn wasn't quite right.

As much as die hard hobbyists may have had a use for specific sound sets for different engines, I have a feeling the market is small enough for upgrades, making more specific ones available might have made it even less financially feasible for them to offer.

-Dave

Dave, Ho has upgrades, mth, has upgrades! Does, Lionel think they are pushing me into lionchief..lol

I doubt that losing the business will be a huge financial blow to me, I do this mostly because I enjoy the people and the hobby!  I could take a one day a week job at a big box store and make more money than my little electronics projects make, so I doubt I'll starve.

Patrick1544 posted:

Is ERR going out of business?  Or just their contracts with Lionel?  Will they still be operative for consumers to purchase their product line?  

ERR is owned by Lionel and they are shutting it down for the public.

I don't argue that I don't like the decision, and I'm sure I'm far from the only person that will be disappointed.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I was needless to say, bummed out by hearing this news.  I will doubtless have to discontinue my Super-Chuffer and Chuff-Generator as not having TMCC upgrades makes them kinda' moot.  I will obviously be emphasizing my PS/3 upgrade business since that's now the only command/control upgrade path it would appear.  I discount BlueTooth at the present as I still haven't seen an O-gauge product.  Sure makes me wonder why I didn't go with HO and standard control systems!

I'll be taking a close look at the MTH catalogs for my future purchases, hard to justify rewarding Lionel for jerking the rug out!

Now I'm really mad  I have gunrunner's super-chuffer and chuff-generator along with ERR cruise commander in three 3rdrail engines, One Kline engine.  I still have two engines that have TAS EOB installed which I know are going to fail someday which ERR cruise was my best bet to retro fit.  John makes a great product, and I would hate to see that go away.

Funny as writing this I got a auto response from Lionel thanking me for my interest in Lionel.

Hey John,

Any chance you can design your own cruise without stepping on anyone's patents?

Landsteiner posted:

I do hope that the decision to close Electric RR is not the final word.  Some opportunity to upgrade conventional/older locomotives to TMCC (or perhaps LionChief+) is essential to a small proportion of consumers and to Lionel’s image as the leader in the field.

 

Lionel’s main competition,  MTH, has been noticeably unfriendly to upgrades over the years,  and this has helped cement Lionel’s role as the primary innovator in the industry.  Completely eliminating TMCC upgrades without a possibility of upgrading to LionChiefPlus for command capability would be a marketing gift to their main competition.

This is a false statement. MTH "unfriendly to upgrades???.  Some how this makes Lionel and innovator???  ERR was Jon's brain child and Lionel bought him out.

As far as MTH, they make and sell upgrade kits.  They made PS-2 steam and diesel kits, even made a slave kit to upgrade their ABA.  They made conversion kits to repair their first generation PS-2 5V board, ensuring the second generation PS-2 3V was backward compatible, they then put in the effort to redo all the sound files for PS-2 5V boards to support it.

When parts became obsolete they transitioned to PS-3 and created the PS-3 upgrade kits, they also made the PS-32 to replace the PS-2 3V and 5V boards.

They have always been backwards compatible.  Why do you always stir the pot and cast MTH in a negative view.

The was about Lionel not MTH.  Frankly read the tea leaves.  Who is the only manufacture that does not repair their own trains because of employee cuts?  Now selling a product is cut?  G

well for lionel it might be a smart move monetary wise in todays market.

now for the person that has the initiative it just might be the door opening again to fulfill a market that seems to have marketability by just a few here and on the other forum unhappy with this decision to close err down to the consumer.

we have some very smart folks in the repair end of this that could create a new market for themselves if they so decided to do so.
yes it would be a lot of work to create a new product and maybe just maybe they would do it even better and create such a market that it ate into all current companies wanting you to buy the latest greatest.

I see this as an opportunity for someone with the initiative to feel the water out and see if a market is there and if it is a financial gain for the wallet.

on a secondary thought and this is really out there but with the advent of newer and newer technology what if instead of a hands on layout and buying all items you created a virtual reality utilizing a pc and other items and setup a rail empire of any size you wanted all within the confines of a desktop/laptop pc the possibilities are endless and is not out of the realm of actually becoming reality.

think about it 100 years ago we didn't have pc's internet self driving cars and yet today we do so someone had the foresight to create it and made a big pile of money too.

maybe someone here will be the next JLC of a really modern era!

I did not know Jon Z retired. That is really a shame, but this certainly looks like a company in financial crisis.  I find it hard to believe that ERR was operating at a loss?  Even if the profit margin was low why cut it, unless you think it cuts into sales of new trains where a higher margin may exist. G

Landsteiner posted:

"Mike Reagan?  I thought ERR was Jon Zahornacky‘s baby?"

That is correct.

I would not be surprised if this decision is reversed or modified.  For those not around in 2000 or so, Mike Wolf was absolutely adamant that PS2 retrofit kits would not be made.  That decision didn't last long when the howls of dissatisfaction were heard.  Let's let Lionel know this isn't a good decision and the result may be similar .

 

That would be nice, unfortunately the difference is Lionel is not currently owned by a single founder who has a real interest in trains. 

It's owned by a financial group that at some level has control over the people we know as the face of the company, and the financial backers don't care about trains and or the hobby in general, just financial performance. 

Sometimes doing things hobbyists like coincides with enhanced financial performance, sometimes the two are mutually exclusive.

-Dave

If someone wanted to do an ERR update, that is one new engine that Lionel will not sell.  I am sure Lionel can make more selling a new engine than ERR parts.  Today, Lionel has a great board system in the RCMC board.   I was very happy when the RCMC board system started showing up.  It beats the crap out of modular board TMCC and early Legacy with modular boards. 

ERR was very popular and I would not be surprised if someone does not pick up the line.   It was a quality product and I do not think it will go away.  

I think this is a big mistake for Lionel to stop the ERR boards  for the public. There are so many of the older trains that get converted. I know I have about 10 of the old mth ps-1 that I have to do. And was looking at doing some more of my Williams engines as well. This will be a terrible loss to the Hobby.

These products contribute much more than just profits, as they promote the TMCC/Legacy system overall.  With the widespread diversity of control systems (TMCC, Legacy, Bluetooth, Lionchief,  DCC, DCS, etc.) the consumer is left wondering what is safe to invest in.  The evolution of electronics, the emergence of Lionchief and now the closing of ERR causes me to be afraid to continue to invest further in Legacy engines, as I fear they will not be supported in the future.

Bill

StPaul posted:

.............
now for the person that has the initiative it just might be the door opening again to fulfill a market that seems to have marketability by just a few here and on the other forum unhappy with this decision to close err down to the consumer.

we have some very smart folks in the repair end of this that could create a new market for themselves if they so decided to do so................

That assumes it still would be possible to license a right to make such a product? 

I have to assume Lionel still owns the rights to the protocol.  They had opened it up to try to make TMCC the standard in the market (most would agree that move was a decent success over the years - though obviously now MTH upgrades also are done - and maybe now A LOT more MTH upgrades!)

One can't just "decide" to make TMCC products, I don't think, but I may be mistaken.  TAS, ERR, etc was all with the blessing of Lionel when the products came to be (I think?).

-Dave

Gentlemen,

Bummer I have a ERR 249 that Guns needs to look at right now, I hope what ever is wrong with her Guns will be able to fix, if new parts are needed.

PCRR/Dave

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

ERR was very popular and I would not be surprised if someone does not pick up the line.   It was a quality product and I do not think it will go away.  

Since Lionel owns it, why would they sell it or give it away?   Not like ERR is an independent company that someone can take over. 

Like others have speculated, I wouldn't be surprised if Lionel pulls the license agreement from AtlasO and 3rdrail down the road and this is only the first step.

With that said with the flood of emails to Lionel, and maybe someone should post post a number we can all call too.   Lionel will see the error of their ways.

ogaugenut posted:

These products contribute much more than just profits, as they promote the TMCC/Legacy system overall.  With the widespread diversity of control systems (TMCC, Legacy, Bluetooth, Lionchief,  DCC, DCS, etc.) the consumer is left wondering what is safe to invest in.  The evolution of electronics, the emergence of Lionchief and now the closing of ERR causes me to be afraid to continue to invest further in Legacy engines, as I fear they will not be supported in the future.

Bill

Exactly!  The current state of electronics will allow forward and backward compatibility...

I've been trying to get a response from Ken on what cruise control products would be needed to upgrade the following but have received no response.

Can someone help?

Thanks.