The Legacy Users Group will be putting out a statement later today on this subject. I will post it to this thread and will re-emphasize it in the Legacy meeting Summary.
Marty Fitzhenry posted:If someone wanted to do an ERR update, that is one new engine that Lionel will not sell. I am sure Lionel can make more selling a new engine than ERR parts. Today, Lionel has a great board system in the RCMC board. I was very happy when the RCMC board system started showing up. It beats the crap out of modular board TMCC and early Legacy with modular boards.
ERR was very popular and I would not be surprised if someone does not pick up the line. It was a quality product and I do not think it will go away.
Someone could only pick up the ERR line if Lionel was willing to sell it to them,Marty, and if what you've said, "If someone wanted to do an ERR update, that is one new engine that Lionel will not sell...." is likely true then Lionel selling ERR to anyone else would be harmful rather than beneficial to Lionel's financial health.
ITS TIME FOR DCC THREE RAIL WAS GOING TO ORDER MY 10TH LIONCHIEF OR FLYERCHIEF TODAY BUT NOT BUYING ANYMORE LIONEL PERIOD
I think this is not a very wise decision for lionel to discontinue the tmcc upgrades. However this does leave opportunities for others to make these upgrades but who knows at this point.
George, I agree with you one hundred percent. MTH listens and makes items and upgrade replacement boards. Perhaps that guy who stated MTH has been noticeably unfriendly towards upgrades can tell us what he is talking about as I am always eager to learn. I have 191 DCS upgrades under my belt and I would bet you have more. Never had an unfriendly moment.
Our hobby has a very loyal number of Lionel only operators. I respect that. I love DCS, Legacy, and TMCC. They are all great. As we know, ERR was a great way to make things happen. I admire and respect all the work John has done with the TMCC. If anyone thinks that ERR is going to fade away, I would tell them not to bet money on it. The product is a good one.
I don't believe that it is the bottom line at ERR but maybe not as much as they like. It is making a profit which is better than not and I think it is more than what we think we know. With TMCC no longer available the only way to have an engine with remote capabilities is to buy a engine with Legacy, DCC or DCS.
I am not about to switch my engines over as it will be to cost prohibitive. And what about the guy that can't afford a $900.00 engine but still wants the option of installing remote control in a less expensive engine....he is screwed.
I looked at BlueRail but it is only rated for 2 amps and that is not enough for a lot of our bigger engines pulling a load. They need to come out with a 4 and 8 amp product but then it will be expensive.
The ERR components are quality made and each component is tested before leaving the factory. It is usually the inexperience of the person doing the installation that can cause an issue. I have had very little warranty work for the ERR components and will continue installing TMCC. This is a big mistake by Lionel.
I have mostly starter set locomotives from my previous layout, I had hoped to start rebuilding another layout this year with the thought of upgrading my locomotives and layout to TMCC, well this throws the brakes on this idea. Guess it's going to be conventional again. TMCC system and boards were a fairly cheap price upgrade, DCS system and Proto 3 upgrades are out of my range. What's next, they'll shut down ERR completely to shaft Atlas and the others to make them change into buying Legacy and Lionchief Plus system boards then announce a year later due to lack of helping their bottom line Lionel plans to drop Legacy for Lionchief Plus, then drop that the next year for their next "State of the Art" system that's not compatible with the rest either. Sorry Lionel, I know we're just numbers to your executive beancounters but there's a lot of us numbers out there that can hurt your bottom line a lot more if we all go stop buying your products and buy from MTH where the ones who can afford upgrades will do it and buy the Imperial or Premier lines for bigger layouts, and the ones like me will keep buying the Railking line for our small layouts. You should rethink your decision now before the day comes that MTH buys what's left of your corporate blunders and it becomes Lionel Trains By MTH!
Marty Fitzhenry posted:George, I agree with you one hundred percent. MTH listens and makes items and upgrade replacement boards. Perhaps that guy who stated MTH has been noticeably unfriendly towards upgrades can tell us what he is talking about as I am always eager to learn. I have 191 DCS upgrades under my belt and I would bet you have more. Never had an unfriendly moment.
Our hobby has a very loyal number of Lionel only operators. I respect that. I love DCS, Legacy, and TMCC. They are all great. As we know, ERR was a great way to make things happen. I admire and respect all the work John has done with the TMCC. If anyone thinks that ERR is going to fade away, I would tell them not to bet money on it. The product is a good one.
If anyone thinks that ERR is going to fade away, I would tell them not to bet money on it. The product is a good one. Granted it is a good product, Marty, but how many other products in history have been quashed and set aside by businesses to spur the financial success of their other products.
Might this be a publicity ploy of Lionel who has no real intent of discontinuing the ERR line but rather has floated this news with the expectation of creating enough customer clamor for this product that Lionel could eventually proclaim, "After listening to an outpouring of correspondence from our "valued" customers we reviewed our ERR decision and reversed it, deciding instead to continue making ERR products available to our customers."
I'm sure if that were the case a considerable number of us here would rejoice if Lionel continued making ERR products available even if they're increased in price. Folks, anything's possible nowadays!
" Perhaps that guy who stated MTH has been noticeably unfriendly towards upgrades can tell us what he is talking about as I am always eager to learn."
(1) MTH initially did not want to make PS2 upgrades available in 2000-2002 and (2) MTH has never allowed third parties to develop upgrades. In contrast, Lionel allowed Mike Reagan, Lou Kovach, Jon Zahornacky and others to develop various upgrades, boards and accessories for TMCC from the beginning, 20-25 years ago.
Furthermore, Lionel has opened their system so if someone wants to clone TMCC or Legacy, they are free to do so without threat of legal action. MTH has, for almost 20 years taken the exact opposite approach. This is not about critiquing MTH, but pointing out that Lionel's policies have served them well, and this change to a more MTH-like approach is a bad decision for hobbyists, and potentially for Lionel.
Didn't mean to make this a lateral arabesque into MTH policies. But the contrast since 1995 or so has been striking.
If Lionel allows someone else to make TMCC upgrades, or changes their mind due to public opinion, this issue may turn out to be a tempest in a teapot.
That said, this is an unwise decision. Be interesting to know whether the sale between Jon Z. and Lionel allows Electric RR intellectual property to revert to Jon if Lionel abandons production. That's a frequent aspect of such contracts when intellectual property is involved. Jon could then reopen Electric RR or sell the rights to it to someone else, if that's the case. One can hope 
. We'll see, no doubt.
I would hope, that if Lionel's mind is made up, maybe the ERR division(if you can call it that) is going away and the products will be incorporated with all the other accessories they list in the back of the catalog. Isn't the cruise commander already listed? Which I would be fine with, as that 50% Lionel parts weekend every January would be sweet.
I'm trying to stay positive, hopefully Lionel will clarify their announcement.
And can we move the MTH stuff somewhere else. This thread is about ERR. please.
I find this especially troubling to those with postwar and older modern era Lionel equipment that have AC motors.
Like me, unless it’s a special locomotive, most don’t want to spend the extra money to modify and change the motor out when it would be easier to either A) buy a $70 AC motor TMCC Commander module, or B) get rid of that engine and buy a new LC/Proto2/3 version of the same engine. Cutting the former out means a lot of those engines are going to be shunted forever in the abandoned lot.
To those guys who have run conventional forever, more power to you. I have no problems with conventional locomotives at all. But I know that a huge portion of those in the hobby want everything they have to be remote compatible now, and those engines just won’t cut it with them.
And those who find it cheaper and easier to do a simple upgrade to their existing TMCC fleet, particularly those who have engines with can motors, are also going to get screwed over now. There are still some wonderful late 90’s to mid 00’s locomotives going at reasonable prices now, like Lionel’s first Allegheny and Big Boy, that with a simple and inexpensive ERR upgrade could be made even better and wouldn’t put a very large dent in your wallet. Now that would be no more...
It also begs the question what Atlas and 3rd Rail are going to do for operating systems in their locomotives. Will they change to DCS? I don’t think they’re going to come out with a system all their own any time soon...
I sent an email to Lionel hope more will do same. This is what I sent.
Ray
o Lionel,
I am writing to say that the decision made by Lionel to cease operations of The Electric Rail Road is very disappointing to myself and I am sure many others in both the O gauge and S gauge model railroading communities. The investment made by Lionel into the aftermarket side of the model railroad hobby brought many of us back into a hobby that had grown cold to us. The opportunity to take some of our older conventional trains and move them into the modern era reinvigorated the hobby and us, it also led us to the purchase of first the TMCC Train Control and later into the Legacy Control System, along with the motive power that goes along with these systems. I am hoping that Lionel LLC might reconsider the decision to end production of these TMCC products and continue to supply perhaps a small but loyal following in this area of toy trains.
I do thank you for all that Lionel has done in the past to enhance model railroading for us but again request that you reconsider this decision.
Thank you for listening
Raymond Puls
Guys, all good thoughts. Who knows what the future will bring. I have always felt the people who make toy trains will always want to sell the latest and greatest. The bottom line keeps jobs if it is a good one.
Landsteiner posted:"Mike Reagan? I thought ERR was Jon Zahornacky‘s baby?"
That is correct.
I would not be surprised if this decision is reversed or modified. For those not around in 2000 or so, Mike Wolf was absolutely adamant that PS2 retrofit kits would not be made. That decision didn't last long when the howls of dissatisfaction were heard. Let's let Lionel know this isn't a good decision and the result may be similar
IT wouldn't surprise me if this scenario plays out.....
Lionel Discontinues the ERR line and sells remaining inventory to a "Top Ten" dealer washing their hands clean.
MTH continues to sell their PS3 kits until their current inventory runs out and/ or one final run before quietly stopping production altogether by next year when tis Lionel/ERR fiasco "blows over"... making them look like "O gauge hero's" in the short term.
Now Lionel and MTH have alienated their biggest market threat of upgrading the Older trains with the latest electronics while still staying in business for the shrinking O guage crowd- forcing the O gauge crowd to purchase the Latest and Greatest at current market pricing to keep the profits rolling in OR forcing the O gauge crowd to canibalizing existing New Old Stock-shrinking that secondary Market.
Disappointing.
I never understood when companies say that a division is not making enough for the bottom line.
It's one thing if a division is running at a loss. Its another to dispose of a profit making division.
Even if the division makes $1 profit per year, its still profit and you are paying employees which is a good thing.
Done... and done.
I’m FN done. Not only canceling my BTOs, but 2-Rail here I come.
BTO engines do not use ERR. Lionel currently has the best board system they have ever used.
MARTY THE BEEF NOT WITH BTO ITS WITH LIONEL
For folks that think you can start up an ERR and make a living, you might want to ask GRJ if he could with his inventions. Answer is probably no today. John, has already stated that it is only hobby money. Same to a degree in the repair business.
I hate to say it, but I doubt this decision is reversed, especially if the investors have been briefed. Leader of these companies do not like to make a decision and say, oh, I made the wrong decision. But I am still worth my salary.
Again, look at the moves Lionel has made over several years from a corporate perspective. Investor want a return, not a loss. They have consolidated location, cut employees, they have cut programs, they have restructured how they do service and parts, product lines now being reduced. These may all be required to stay or become profitable. You may not like it, but, it may be required to get the products you do get from Lionel. G
It also begs the question what Atlas and 3rd Rail are going to do for operating systems in their locomotives.
Will they change to DCS? I don’t think they’re going to come out with a system all their own any time soon...
Thomas
Somerset County 4-H Trainmasters
Those companies still have contracts with Lionel to give them the TMCC Electronics. Wvwntually, IT wouldn't surprise me if those contracts expire or those companies are sold off to another individual- which may reneg the original contract that they too will be "hung out to dry"
CentralFan1976 posted:Done... and done.
I’m FN done. Not only canceling my BTOs, but 2-Rail here I come.
Hmm I did think about this as I have a major BTO(most I have ever spent on a engine)and and another pre-order.
However I don’t want to hurt the dealer I’m using.
Possibly the “Nuclear Option” .
Lets see if sensible heads prevail over the next week.
Nick
P.S. Got to get back to sharpening pitch forks and making burning torches
Patents on TMCC might be expiring ,and if you only knew how cheap it is to make basically WW2 technology boards in China , someone else can make the boards .
Funny how the DCC community thrives with lots of companies ESU LOK sound makes O scale electronic decoders for around $125 , when you get all proprietary(Lionel) and the you as a customer buys into this one way non compatible system what do you expect .
Other scales thrive with young people because they never grew up with 3 rails , they go rail fanning and see real trains and 2 rails . the center rail is the "DoDo Bird" , what people fail to realize is DCC even has a simple version too called RAILPRO
I never hear the whining in HO about the quality control like here , you keep buying this head ache , this is what you get .
Lionel does not want to staff a tech support for amateurs upgrading electronics and then having to warranty these boards . Some DCC manufacturers will repair any blown board I think for 25 no matter what . Think about it , the HO and N is much smaller and the companies allstay in business , must be a big mark up on the sound boards .
Just my 2 cents
BillP posted:Disappointing.
I never understood when companies say that a division is not making enough for the bottom line.
It's one thing if a division is running at a loss. Its another to dispose of a profit making division.
Even if the division makes $1 profit per year, its still profit and you are paying employees which is a good thing.
I guess that where the "greed" factor enters into the company's decision making process, BillP, deciding whether the profit made is "sizable enough" for them?
gunrunnerjohn posted:I was needless to say, bummed out by hearing this news. I will doubtless have to discontinue my Super-Chuffer and Chuff-Generator as not having TMCC upgrades makes them kinda' moot. I will obviously be emphasizing my PS/3 upgrade business since that's now the only command/control upgrade path it would appear. I discount BlueTooth at the present as I still haven't seen an O-gauge product. Sure makes me wonder why I didn't go with HO and standard control systems!
I'll be taking a close look at the MTH catalogs for my future purchases, hard to justify rewarding Lionel for jerking the rug out!
Yes John, I'm seriously considering HO in my future ! enough is enough already 
Alex
modeltrainsparts posted:The one change I've noticed that the return labels on my last two orders from ERR indicated the package was from B.G. Technologies of the same Walsh Ave. address. Any explanations?
My most recent order of an ERR item (back in early March) was also shipped from B.G. Technologies and the same name appeared on the transaction on my Paypal account.
I just put in an order for one cruise commander and two cruise M kits. Hope they have STILL have stock. Should put in a order with Gunrunner to match.
Alex M posted:gunrunnerjohn posted:I was needless to say, bummed out by hearing this news. I will doubtless have to discontinue my Super-Chuffer and Chuff-Generator as not having TMCC upgrades makes them kinda' moot. I will obviously be emphasizing my PS/3 upgrade business since that's now the only command/control upgrade path it would appear. I discount BlueTooth at the present as I still haven't seen an O-gauge product. Sure makes me wonder why I didn't go with HO and standard control systems!
I'll be taking a close look at the MTH catalogs for my future purchases, hard to justify rewarding Lionel for jerking the rug out!
Yes John, I'm seriously considering HO in my future ! enough is enough already
Alex
On30 would be an easier move. Replace your three rail track and keep all the rest.
Three in our 3 rail club have already made the switch.
Pete
Norton posted:Alex M posted:gunrunnerjohn posted:I was needless to say, bummed out by hearing this news. I will doubtless have to discontinue my Super-Chuffer and Chuff-Generator as not having TMCC upgrades makes them kinda' moot. I will obviously be emphasizing my PS/3 upgrade business since that's now the only command/control upgrade path it would appear. I discount BlueTooth at the present as I still haven't seen an O-gauge product. Sure makes me wonder why I didn't go with HO and standard control systems!
I'll be taking a close look at the MTH catalogs for my future purchases, hard to justify rewarding Lionel for jerking the rug out!
Yes John, I'm seriously considering HO in my future ! enough is enough already
Alex
On30 would be an easier move. Replace your three rail track and keep all the rest.
Three in our 3 rail club have already made the switch.
Pete
Good idea Pete , you don’t really hear these problems with S or HO gauge , anyone who’s been to the Big E can vouch for that. Standing room only at the Big E , thriving as each year goes by.
Alex
Folks,
I wanted to weigh in a bit on this thread as after all I founded Electric RR, and I am still involved with the operations of the Lionel CA office which is closing this year. I don't believe in my heart that Lionel wants to hurt the hobby in any way, they just have few options going forward with Electric RR. Lionel owns the entirety of Electric RR, and I do not have a "revert to me" clause. I sold this entity to Lionel a log time ago to keep it viable after I joined Lionel. It was a good move for me, and for Lionel, as the solid profits helped keep the CA office expenses down.
Electric RR has been a good run for technology that is 12+ years old. I hired Ken to run Electric RR 10 or so years ago. Ken is the lifeblood of the current business, as many of you can attest by interactions with him. Ken is ready to retire, and is well into his 80's, God bless. Without Ken, Electric RR is no more.
Electric RR Inventory is almost all zero, and it will take 4-6 months to rebuild. Restarting is complicated. Adding to this, my investment in the technology has been nil for years, and the parts obsolescence is a BIG factor. Much of the electronics need attention to continue to be made, although the core PCBs are still manufacturer-able for the OEMs. I do have to adjust code for the OEMs at times, which I am sure I will do if asked to keep them on track 
I share your disappointment, as founder of Electric RR. Tough to see it fade away, although it may be that it is revived at some point. There are tough choices, and I am sure the Lionel management is looking at them. Eventually, it will sort out and things will be fine. As they say, when one door closes, 2 more open - you just have to find them! Your feedback is good, and please continue to enjoy this fine hobby.
In closing, the nice comments about the products are really heart warming for me, as I really feel connected to the hobby with my small contribution.
Thank you.
Dan Fender posted:modeltrainsparts posted:The one change I've noticed that the return labels on my last two orders from ERR indicated the package was from B.G. Technologies of the same Walsh Ave. address. Any explanations?
My most recent order of an ERR item (back in early March) was also shipped from B.G. Technologies and the same name appeared on the transaction on my Paypal account.
Electric RR is BG Technologies corporate name. Same entity.
Santafefan I thank you for weighing in on this. You had a great product there and it will be missed.
With that being said for the time being it leave me in a different direction in part of my interest as I was thinking of getting proto sound 2-6-6-6 or similar and converting it to TMCC. So that will be put on hold for a while ( I have tmcc/legacy and have no desire or interest going into Proto sound ) . I may keep it in my mind thou and try a conventional E-unit that can handle that type of an engine. ( I know pror sound is basically conventional but It has it's problems with having to charge or make sure the battery is charge.)
Thanks for all the years you did have a great product for us to use.
In closing ( yes I know I wishing for a lot here ) I hope Lionel will come out with some form of Legacy that we can install in our older engines to make them TMCC/Legacy friendly.
SantaFeFan posted:Folks,
I wanted to weigh in a bit on this thread as after all I founded Electric RR, and I am still involved with the operations of the Lionel CA office which is closing this year. I don't believe in my heart that Lionel wants to hurt the hobby in any way, they just have few options going forward with Electric RR. Lionel owns the entirety of Electric RR, and I do not have a "revert to me" clause. I sold this entity to Lionel a log time ago to keep it viable after I joined Lionel. It was a good move for me, and for Lionel, as the solid profits helped keep the CA office expenses down.
Electric RR has been a good run for technology that is 12+ years old. I hired Ken to run Electric RR 10 or so years ago. Ken is the lifeblood of the current business, as many of you can attest by interactions with him. Ken is ready to retire, and is well into his 80's, God bless. Without Ken, Electric RR is no more.
Electric RR Inventory is almost all zero, and it will take 4-6 months to rebuild. Restarting is complicated. Adding to this, my investment in the technology has been nil for years, and the parts obsolescence is a BIG factor. Much of the electronics need attention to continue to be made, although the core PCBs are still manufacturer-able for the OEMs. I do have to adjust code for the OEMs at times, which I am sure I will do if asked to keep them on track
I share your disappointment, as founder of Electric RR. Tough to see it fade away, although it may be that it is revived at some point. There are tough choices, and I am sure the Lionel management is looking at them. Eventually, it will sort out and things will be fine. As they say, when one door closes, 2 more open - you just have to find them! Your feedback is good, and please continue to enjoy this fine hobby.
In closing, the nice comments about the products are really heart warming for me, as I really feel connected to the hobby with my small contribution.
Thank you.
Jon,
"I don't believe in my heart that Lionel wants to hurt the hobby in any way, they just have few options going forward" Please, there needs to be some sort of upward and downward compatibility in product line....3 control systems and the top of the line ??? legacy remote can't run them all?
I've really had enough! The parts situation... The last lionel product was bought at York!
Jon,
Thanks for weighing in and everything you and your team have done for the TMCC conversion side of this hobby as well as product innovation and development at Lionel. You mentioned ERR inventory nearly at zero. I ordered some ERR products today off the web site. My order went through, but will it get filled? Will you and your team continue to work at Lionel? Thanks again.
Dave
Notch 6 posted:It was announced Friday morning that as of May of 2018, Lionel plans to cease operations of The Electric Railroad Company, effectively ending the market for TMCC upgrade kits. Some details were shared as to why the decision was made, the overwhelming reason being the very small contribution that ERR provides to the bottom line of Lionel.
While I am all for the financial health and well being of Lionel, I feel like this move ends nearly twenty eight years of open source sharing by Lionel to allow the TMCC platform into ALL brands of O gauge trains regardless of age or manufacturer. Lionel has stated that they will continue to supply TMCC boards directly to Atlas and 3rd Rail, but it appears that all direct to consumer sale of boards for upgrades is ending.
This afternoon I wrote the following as part of an email to Howard Hitchcock;
"I agree that the ERR line could and should shrink significantly. I would hope though that there would be an option that the boards that will be supplied to Atlas and 3rd Rail could still be retailed to consumers. I have long been a supporter of the TMCC / Legacy system and every engine that runs on my layout is TMCC equipped. The loss of ERR leaves many of us with a tough decision to face as we decide to either adopt MTH DCS in order to upgrade or start gutting other locomotives to salvage electronics.
Again, I understand what ever decision is made will need to be financially sound, but I hope you will strongly consider leaving us an option to upgrade to basic TMCC control."
I would like to publicly advocate for Lionel to consider either retaining a small part of the ERR line that would allow for core TMCC upgrades to be accomplished or as an alternative to make the boards that are being supplied to Atlas and 3rd Rail available for purchase through Lionel service. While the second option is less user friendly as the boards are production boards and will require soldering, it still leaves us at least an option to upgrade.
If you care about this matter, I strongly encourage you to write a thoughtful email and send it to talktous@lionel.com
Thank you for reading and for writing to Lionel if you so choose.
All the best,
Derek
It seems that the source of buying the boards has merely shifted from ERR (Lionel) to Atlas and 3rd rail. Interesting to see if these companies will now sell these ERR products to the individual users????? Also Will Lionel offer any option to buy their Legacy Boards?
L.I.TRAIN posted:It seems that the source of buying the boards has merely shifted from ERR (Lionel) to Atlas and 3rd rail. Interesting to see if these companies will now sell these ERR products to the individual users?????
You make that assertion as if those companies are licensed to sell the boards? Are they?
Lionel agreed to sell them boards to include in their engines as sold, not to be vendors for the boards themselves (at least "way back when").
Now, if Lionel was to say it is OK for them to sell these boards, that may be a great solutuon (and they are willing to - but why would they necessarily want that hassle)? For them it may also be better if you may buy an engine instead of just a board.
Dave45681 posted:robmcc posted:Wow. That's terrible. It's frustrating enough there's hardly any other aftermarket TMCC/RS boards out there. If Lionel wants to blame poor profits on their decision, my question is what did they do to help support ERR? The product line, although very good, has pretty much stayed the same since ERR came to be. For example, the 'SD' sound board is fairly generic, based on SD50 sounds, I believe. I've been wanting to upgrade my KCC SD75 sound for years, but kept putting it off because I was hoping for something with a more accurate horn. I might have to pull the trigger now and make due. Maybe adding some new product would have helped. Who knows......
Rob, I'm not trying to pick on you here, but your points show how often we fall into the "don't know what you've got until it's gone" scenario.
In the past, you were worried about the offerings not being as specific as you would like.
Well, Lionel says no problem, we will just stop offering them all together. And now the first option looks a lot better, even if the horn wasn't quite right.
As much as die hard hobbyists may have had a use for specific sound sets for different engines, I have a feeling the market is small enough for upgrades, making more specific ones available might have made it even less financially feasible for them to offer.
-Dave
Dave, I guess my point was I shouldn't have to settle on the "first option" because Lionel is now forcing my hand and it's my pretty much my ONLY option. Maybe there isn't a huge market for upgrades, but if there was a wider range of options available, who's to say what the potential could be? I've always wished there was a programmable Railsounds board available, like ProtoSound. That way you could use a generic board with specific sound files. If MTH is able to do it, why can't Lionel?
Landsteiner posted:" Perhaps that guy who stated MTH has been noticeably unfriendly towards upgrades can tell us what he is talking about as I am always eager to learn."
(1) MTH initially did not want to make PS2 upgrades available in 2000-2002 and (2) MTH has never allowed third parties to develop upgrades. In contrast, Lionel allowed Mike Reagan, Lou Kovach, Jon Zahornacky and others to develop various upgrades, boards and accessories for TMCC from the beginning, 20-25 years ago.
Furthermore, Lionel has opened their system so if someone wants to clone TMCC or Legacy, they are free to do so without threat of legal action. MTH has, for almost 20 years taken the exact opposite approach. This is not about critiquing MTH, but pointing out that Lionel's policies have served them well, and this change to a more MTH-like approach is a bad decision for hobbyists, and potentially for Lionel.
Didn't mean to make this a lateral arabesque into MTH policies. But the contrast since 1995 or so has been striking.
If Lionel allows someone else to make TMCC upgrades, or changes their mind due to public opinion, this issue may turn out to be a tempest in a teapot.
That said, this is an unwise decision. Be interesting to know whether the sale between Jon Z. and Lionel allows Electric RR intellectual property to revert to Jon if Lionel abandons production. That's a frequent aspect of such contracts when intellectual property is involved. Jon could then reopen Electric RR or sell the rights to it to someone else, if that's the case. One can hope
This is not really complete. It is one thing to make a decision at the beginning of a new product (PS-2) to decide not to make upgrade kits for old products. PS-2 just was released. MTH reversed that decision, but they still made their product backwards compatible for PS-2. The open versus closed is really a different decision not a upgrade friendly or not friendly decision. Train America was still using Lionel R2LC and Rail Sound boards. All they made different was the mother board and motor drive with cruise. Things not patent by Lionel. Lionel benefited from selling parts to support, just like they do with Atlas or 3rd Rail. The auxiliary stuff like smoke and such were new products that had nothing to do with Lionel allowing. They did not own the tech. Jon's stuff was new but still used Lionel R2LC, and of course it evolved into Lionel product once they bought ERR.
You might say Lionel's policy may not have served them well. Their approach to product and operating systems have much greater cost to support with parts, service and technical documentation then MTH's approach. You get more diversity of product and feature, but it is costly to support. Time will tell how this all works out.
But your statement about MTH not upgrade friendly is really not true. MTH could have given it up after several years allowing PS-1 to be converted for original owners. Instead they found it to be a good profit line though small margin that allows folks to convert Brass, Other OEM engines and the still around PS-1 to the very latest MTH System...PS-3. Include getting the latest PS-3 sound files.
Lionel never really allowed any new tech to become upgrade tech. They just let the old tech be used. We never got better then RS 5 and the R2LC, directional lighting and one feature tech of the 90s. Jon's back EMF cruise control was his tech. Sure, they could have denied use. But that was the upgrade desire. G
This thread has certainly fueled a frenetic feeding frenzy of disappointment and disillusionment with Lionel LLC., but might I add, "thank you Jon for how you've contributed to our enjoyment of our 3-rail hobby. Thanks too for adding to this thread your thoughtful and sage philosophy, " As they say, when one door closes, 2 more open - you just have to find them! .. and please continue to enjoy this fine hobby."
For some of us it'll free up otherwise spent $$ resources to spend on oter aspects of this hobby. And to those folks here who are more deeply involved with working on ERR conversions and been so dedicated to helping other 3-railers "improve" their engines this unexpected turn of events likely has positives for you too. Ken, from ERR will now have the retirement he so justly has earned and deserves; GJG, instead of devoting so much time to fixing the engines of others, you might now have more time to work on your own soon to be started dream layout; and Alex M, besides you also having additional time to work on yourown layout, you'll have added time to devote to creating additional magnificent structures for this board's members if you wish to do so. With the Almighty's blessings this surprising occurence will hopefully work out positively for all involved.
SantaFeFan posted:Folks,
I wanted to weigh in a bit on this thread as after all I founded Electric RR, and I am still involved with the operations of the Lionel CA office which is closing this year. I don't believe in my heart that Lionel wants to hurt the hobby in any way, they just have few options going forward with Electric RR. Lionel owns the entirety of Electric RR, and I do not have a "revert to me" clause. I sold this entity to Lionel a log time ago to keep it viable after I joined Lionel. It was a good move for me, and for Lionel, as the solid profits helped keep the CA office expenses down.
Electric RR has been a good run for technology that is 12+ years old. I hired Ken to run Electric RR 10 or so years ago. Ken is the lifeblood of the current business, as many of you can attest by interactions with him. Ken is ready to retire, and is well into his 80's, God bless. Without Ken, Electric RR is no more.
Electric RR Inventory is almost all zero, and it will take 4-6 months to rebuild. Restarting is complicated. Adding to this, my investment in the technology has been nil for years, and the parts obsolescence is a BIG factor. Much of the electronics need attention to continue to be made, although the core PCBs are still manufacturer-able for the OEMs. I do have to adjust code for the OEMs at times, which I am sure I will do if asked to keep them on track
I share your disappointment, as founder of Electric RR. Tough to see it fade away, although it may be that it is revived at some point. There are tough choices, and I am sure the Lionel management is looking at them. Eventually, it will sort out and things will be fine. As they say, when one door closes, 2 more open - you just have to find them! Your feedback is good, and please continue to enjoy this fine hobby.
In closing, the nice comments about the products are really heart warming for me, as I really feel connected to the hobby with my small contribution.
Thank you.
I can appreciate that Ken wants to retire, I wish him all the best. But this is the same story we all heard when Weaver folded with minimal warning, namely that the key person was "too old and the time seemed right".
The bigger problem is that all of the manufacturers seem to be employing people who have already retired from "real life" , and have limited time to work. That isn't their fault, it's the fault of some of the younger people in our hobby.
I majored in Electrical Engineering in college 20 + years ago, and I would have leaped at the opportunity to work even part time at something like this. It would have helped me learn my craft, and made some money to boot, while allowing me to study and "do trains" at the same time.
Apparently, they're doing it in other scales, because the people that make DCC seem to be thriving. I also hear that TMCC, DCC, and DCS aren't compatible, and that may be true with the technology we have now, but somebody could invent a way to make them work together. MTH is already making trains that can run on either DCS or DCC, and you can run TMCC with a DCS handheld, so let's get on the band wagon.
For a gadgeteer, this could be a dream job. You could get to see how things work in multiple scales, and even come up with ways to use them outside the model railroad world, and vice-versa. One of us already uploaded a video this morning of a new system. That's the way to go.
L.I. Train,
The thought of Atlas and 3rd Rail selling (or even buying/taking over) the ERR boards is a very good one. Very interesting thoughts, I hope you are on to something here!! I too certainly hope the ERR products can be continued in some way. This announcement is a huge disappointment to many in the hobby and I think Lionel may be hurting themselves in the long run.
