The incredible shrinking York

Bill Webb posted:

We are at York again.

Saw lots of friends and enjoyed being together. Met several new people.

York can be about negatives if you want it to be. We come to have a good time and accept that things change. I am 71. If the young people want to do something else, okay by me, especially since I can’t change it. But we are glad to see those who are here.

The good ole days are being made today too.

 

 

Other than all the help I've received on this forum, that might be the best thing I've ever read here... 

Mark in Oregon

I was there today and enjoyed it.   Batman needs the Joker.

The only thing I can't find at York is a nice church for the layout.

Some may feel different but York to me never felt the same after the yellow hall closed. The yellow hall was an event all by itself.    The packed aisles with dealers jammed in, the smell of roasting hotdogs & pretzels and of course the big Lionel tent outside.   It was like Christmas twice a year.  Truly an amazing time to be at York..  Nothing today can duplicate it..     

For better or worse,  today for those who attend York, it is a different event in a different era with a different agenda..   Back in the day folks traveled long distances to York because they collected trains old or new,  mint or used along with anything related to trains.    It was addicting.. most folks could not get enough of it.

Folks! It’s over.....

OKHIKER posted:

Just got back from my 18th consecutive York.  My first York was in 2002 and it was a rat race, literally a rat race.  People were crashing into the halls and scurrying about trying to find that one piece they desired before someone else found it first.   It almost took the fun out of it.   Nevertheless, I enjoyed that first trip and all of the others since because I never saw so many trains in my entire life and I met some nice folks along the way. 

Fast forward to 2019 and a lot of things have changed.  TCA has probably lost about 30% of its all time high membership roster of about 30,000 and the biggest reason for that is simple as has already been posted-DEATH.  The Model/toy community consists of a rapidly aging and dying population and when you lose 10,000 members it will put a crimp in the numbers that attend York.    However, that being said, I'm seeing just about as many trains now at York as I did back in 2002 and that's what the main drawing card is supposed to be-TRAINS.  When I returned home today I still spent several hundred dollars because if you look hard enough there are always things you need or desire and that's exactly what I did.  What's more I hated to leave.  I enjoy it now as much as I ever did.

When I read topics like this I just shake my head in amazement.  Sometimes it almost appears as if some people get off on predicting the demise of the train hobby and in particular the York meets.  York ain't dead and neither is the train hobby.   All right, the aging process, death, internet sales have all had a negative impact on the numbers in attendance but so what.  Like I said there are still thousands of trains there and there are still thousands of people attending from all over the country.  I saw campers from as far away as Alaska, Montana, Iowa, Michigan, Minnesota, Kansas, Kentucky, Florida and Ontario.  These people still come for a reason and that reason is because they love trains and enjoy being around people who enjoy trains.  The problem is the more people who continually carp on the demise of the the York train meets it will definitely dampen the enthusiasm of those who do attend and in my opinion it probably already has. 

My feeling is this- the heck with the constant naysayers, I'm going to keep the pedal to the metal for as long as I can and will savor every moment I spend at York that I can because there will come a day that I won't be able to.   In my own way I will continue to highlight the positive benefits of the York meets and the relationships that I have forged there in the hopes that others will feel the same way and keep their pedal to the metal as well.   Bottom line-people who say that they love the hobby, enjoy trains and train meets should spend more time touting the highlights of these meets rather than the lowlights.

^^^^ THIS

The bottom line is the old saying, "different strokes for different folks". Growing up in Brooklyn and Queens, New York City, I did not mind crowded subway and el platforms, or  being crammed like sardines into the cars. After leaving New York for the Southern states of Alabama, Tennessee and North Carolina, to a much less hectic lifestyle than my growing up, I have, over the last decades of my life, avoided large crowds and semi-claustrophobic spaces. Toy train "Mecca" aside, there are a few of us that have been quite content in our hobby without the biannual  York pilgrimage. I have had all the trains I ever wanted or needed over my 76 years on this planet. Also, the money spent on the travel, meals and lodging could be more wisely spent on the trains.  To those that enjoy the treks to York, I sincerely wish them bon voyage, and successful hunting! Its all good!  ☺

I wrote this in another post and is worth repeating here....I honestly do not know what some folks are disappointed about. We certainly did not miss any vendors where we buy stuff and the ones that were not there, well somebody else got my money.

This is what I wrote:

Great day for me and my wife too. We always have a good time.

Bought a lot of stuff, picked up more shelves at GSDS and my custom Engine house at TW Trainworx. We had a nice chat with Mike Reagan (who built my building) and also with OGR's Allan Miller. I tried twice to talk to Scott Mann but he was always busy!

I wanted to ask Scott if he had any future plans to re-run the El Cap cars with that very cool transition car.

We had dinner at the diner on RT 30 and then headed home. We stopped at the outlets in Lancaster and Debbie was able to pick up a few necessities!

Overall, a great day and cannot wait until October. 

Donald

My wife and I drive from western Kentucky 725 miles from home to York. This was our 14th consecutive show. It was great for us as we saw friends as well spent a bunch of money. A few vendors were not there but big deal who cares. Lionel is probably the biggest one.

We stopped going to York five years ago when the TCA dues increased (no longer a member) , the admission  cost went up and along with the cost of food, lodging and transportation it became an unnecessary expense.  In those five years since, we saved nearly $3,000.  I'm still a hobbyist/model train enthusiast, subscribe to OGR but attend Allentown, an occasional Greenberg's show and the WGHOT show (when it comes to town). Those are all inexpensive day trips.  The public meets plus online buying on eBay more than fills the need.  The bottom line is that the attendance at York is declining due to the admission restrictions, cost to attend and less/no interest from the younger people. In contrast the Allentown Meet welcomes everyone, had a record attendance for the Spring Thaw meet, and is thriving. That show was packed from wall to wall. The hobby is still alive just evolving away from York.

I really enjoy going to York.  I'm usually there on behalf of 3rd Rail in the Orange Hall, but it is a time where I can catch up with people on this forum, TCA friends from other Divisions, and talk trains both to potential customers and the gang of two railers that always hang out with us when Bob Heil is there.  Wonderful time to simply enjoy the hobby.  I've only bought one item at my first York in 2012. 

Couldn't make this one as my new job has me on the road 40% of the time, but hope to be back soon.  The craft beer scene at all the new downtown restaurants is always fun too. 

I won't comment much other than to say that the demise of this hobby has been predicted for a long time and it still hasn't happened.  I ran into a 8 year ( yes a 3rd grader) recently who not only knew all the major classes of steam locomotives running or preserved in museums today, but also knew the road numbers.  THAT is why I love this hobby. 

Jonathan: It is less of a "demise" than a decline in participation as the 65+ members age and deal with increasing health and residence relocation issues (less space for collections and layouts).

I had a great time myself.  I did a first pass of all of the halls on Thursday.  Found too many bargains, I wish I could have got them all. 

Not only did I get some goodies, I also met a lot of folks and caught up with old buddies. 

I also enjoyed simply strolling about.  It's YORK! after all!

This reminds me of an old Lerner and Lowe song:

There is a marvelous version of this with Maurice Chevalier and Hermione Gingold performing it on you tube

I heartily agree that the socialization aspect of the York meets is a big draw for many, and that is a valid reason to attend besides the massive array of merchandise. Meeting folks like Mike Wolf and the proprietors of Ross Custom Switches and 3rd Rail are also attractive social interactions. 

That song rendition is from the movie, Gigi, also starring the lovely and gamine Leslie Caron.

Tinplate Art posted:

That song rendition is from the movie, Gigi, also starring the wonderful and gamine Leslie Caron.

Give the man a sheroot

I had the best York for finds in years!  I'm not worried about the hobby at all.  Seems to me York is still a rather large meet.

I think it's obvious that York is not what it was twenty years ago, or even ten for that matter. But nothing is the same in any of the retail outlets. Look at the picture of a Mall that Frank M posted above. The internet has changed everything.

Most of the people that attended York back then are no longer with us. Unless the younger generation develops a love of the hobby that we shared as kids I doubt if we will be seeing any  replacements any time soon.

MichRR714 posted:

I had the best York for finds in years!  I'm not worried about the hobby at all.  Seems to me York is still a rather large meet.

I agree just returned great time Great show Great finds,

As many have stated above, York is still a wonderful experience even with "father time" and "societal change" knocking at our door. What I really enjoy doing while at York is driving over to Gettysburg and walking the Union "fish hook" or retracing "Pickett's charge." It is a win, win for me.

das boot posted:

As many have stated above, York is still a wonderful experience even with "father time" and "societal change" knocking at our door. What I really enjoy doing while at York is driving over to Gettysburg and walking the Union "fish hook" or retracing "Pickett's charge." It is a win, win for me.

 

Unfortunately, it’s about the dealers experience. Without dealers there is no show. 

Since I live on the West coast I probably never will attend this event. I have seen the decline in vendor participation at swap meets relating to radio control airplanes. You used to go and see the latest and greatest items the manufacturers had to offer. Then they stopped showing up and the shows participation declined. If York is the same then it is only a matter of time before it dies. It's important if the manufacturers want to keep interest and excitement in the hobby they need to participate in these events. I know it costs them but it must be done.  

This was a GREAT YORK for me!!!  I was able to find everything on my wish list plus a few Spontaneous items. Yes the crowds were a bit thinner but that afforded those in attendance a bit more time with the sellers. For anyone with a buying agenda there were many deals to be had especially on the engines. As always I connected with friends.

Maybe there will be an “Internet York Meet” someday where everything will be handled from your home. Times and technology are changing very fast. We do not know what technology advances will make possible in a few years.

I've been going to York for 5 or 6 years now. I'm probably half the age of the average York attendee. I get it, I'm lucky enough to be able to take the days off and go. These days, if its not scale, I dont care. Plenty of scale trains to be had thanks to the manufacturers catching on to what the market wants. Not much else. I'm the odd ball who likes building things, so while there were plenty of pre-built plastic drop and wire buildings and what not to be had, York offers very little in the way of kits, or bits and pieces detail parts (yes, a few places, but nothing major). Those who were offering these things (for example, Doug at Todd Architecture or Jim at Scenic Express) were busy every time I walked by. That must say something about whats going on.

My observation was.... if the price was right, it was gone on Thursday.  Thanks to the internet, everyone knows what the real price is. There were a large number of items that were available for way less than the internet. These guys have it figured out. People were looking, the merchandise was moving. There were other places... I'm not sure what the thought process is. Priced at or above MSRP, signs purporting a "discount" that was anything but. I saw one MTH RK diesel with a sign quoting the Premier line MSRP then a "sale" price of the RK MSRP... come on! It takes 30 seconds on google to call BS. Then you'll hear the complaints that York wasn't worth the trip. Lets all just get it out of the way... York has a reputation for a good deal. If the deal isnt good, then its not coming home. Give it away? Probably not in the dealer halls, but for most items, I doubt too many people go to York hoping to pay MSRP either.

I was there for the opening bell Thursday, did my usual... run around on Thursday looking for bargains, then spend the rest of the day and Friday combing through things in more detail, as well as looking for small things on my list. 

My friend and I filled the trunk of my wagon up to the roll up cover, then spilled over into the back seat. None of it was on a list... it was just too good to pass on and fit with what we were into. My "list" of stuff to buy was roughly $75 and would have fit in the glove box. There were a few things I made note of and went back to check on and they were gone. Obviously other people got deals too. The things I did manage to score, some were down to the last one by 2pm Thursday.

As far as the crowds, it shifted around. At door open Thursday, the orange hall wasnt that busy, by the time we made it to Silver (3:00???) it was pretty busy in there. Not wall to wall, but not a free aisle either. Saw the same basic thing today. Saw a number of kids, even a few in strollers.... possibly a good sign, but still far out numbered by the F150 sized scooters plying the halls. 

I spent a little bit of money in the member halls. I dont have any interest in PW or MPC stuff, and judging from stuff headed to parking lots, not many other people seemed to either.  Without really knowing whats what, I have no comment on the pricing of that stuff, other than it always seems to be there, so that must say something. However, if everyone is looking for stuff that isnt there, then its easy to see how this is gonna go. Everyone's mad cuz there's "nothing to buy" and "no one bought my stuff".

The show doesnt need to fizzle into oblivion, but something needs to change. Its still probably the largest show in the country for O gauge stuff. But you're not going to pull in new people with tables upon tables of 65 year old trains. And if the dealers quit coming, then the people quit coming and the whole thing is gonna spiral out of control fast.

How's it going to be fixed? Well, its probably not going to exponentially increase in size, but whether its creating more of a draw (more layouts, collaborating the show with other organizations/scales/etc to increase the attendee base), adjusting the schedule (Friday/Saturday only or Friday-Sunday), or making it more appealing to give it a shot (maybe off the wall but, Free/discounted base rate booth for first time dealers, perhaps?). We can sit here and spitball ideas all day. The ED needs to figure it out, probably fast. The show (meet) needs to make some adjustments to the market and everyone's expectations need to change. 

I commend the manufacturers who came. Scott Mann had a bunch of new projects on the table and probably talked to everyone who came up. The MTH booth was busy. Is it cost effective? Who knows, but sometimes it takes money to make money, I would assume putting your wares in front of your customers helps. 

Also a shout to the clubs who put in the time and work. Its a huge lift for any club to do that show and their efforts should be commended.

No surprises here................

In the model car world the 'York' was Toledo NNL. At one time the vendors filled a huge building, spilled over into three other large rooms. Then there were folks set up in the parking lot. It was so packed it was hard to move........and I never had enough cash with me. 

I attended every year from 1983 until 2015. Last year the show did not fill a small basketball gym.When I went in 2015 I spent $50 on an item from a friend. In 20019 the show will be held for the final time. The show that drew people from around the world.......now can't pay the rent for a small gym. 

The only constant is change.  Welcome to our modern world.  

I'm guessing photography is not allowed, as we're not seeing any pictures(?)

From the event itself, I mean...not the restaurants... 

Mark in Oregon

Nattering nabobs of negativity. For years we've known that "the old guys" are dying off and new blood is needed. People like to come to my house to see my layout, and I do that from time to time. If you then get into the "why don't you join the TCA or come to a meet", you get a quizzical stare. My new plan is to give people who are interested in my layout a one year paper subscription to OGR. That way they will be getting something about the hobby throughout they year and they can become aware of meets, etc. That will start with someone visiting me in a couple of weeks.

Does anyone ever want to come over and see your layout who isn't into trains? Just an idea. And if you can't afford the few dollars for the subscription, you don't belong in the hobby.

Gerry

Wow!  So, if attendance is down 10%, York is not worth the trip? Really?  Yes, the aisles were a little less crowded. But the tables were still full of trains.  I had a great 2 days of train buying including:

A hard-to-find K-line 21" Hiawatha War Bonds Coach and 2 scale Lionel Milwaukee club cars

A superchuffer and chuff generator from GRJ at Hennings

Resin details from Altoona Model Works

A Downtown Deco building that needed some TLC

A boatload of scenery materials and stone walls from Scenic Express

This is in addition to a TMCC Gantry Crane and Legacy Steam engine that I bought from forum members for York delivery.

I was too busy having fun to notice Atlas and Lionel's absence.

So, the sky is not falling, the world is not ending in 12 years, and York is still a blast!

Bob

I've attended York, on and off, for about 13 years. I've been lucky that the past 5 years or so have been "on years" and haven't missed one lately. 

Personally, I have no need for anything new. I've added the Postwar stuff I wanted to add to my Postwar collection and I've got plenty of other things. I'm moving into a slightly smaller home which compounds the need for less. Not that I'm not buying anything else......

A few random thoughts:

Guys selling Postwar and related stuff. Some of them must be smoking crack based on the pricing alone. I saw plenty of beaters with insane prices. I only buy the best of the best when it comes to Postwar and I just have to shake my head. I didn't even really see any super awesome deals on modern stuff (except NIB PS3 MTH Railking Imperial Challengers being blown out for $250 by one Orange Hall Dealer - that was REALLY tempting and if I didn't already have a Lionmaster Legacy challenger with smoking whistle, I would have bought one!) and even the good deals I saw I just walked by. I'm at a saturation point and just am not buying much these days. 

Dealers: Some of these guys don't really seem to want or appreciate your business. For example: Bought a set of MTH Passenger cars from a large dealer in the Orange Hall. I said "Thank you" and he said "You're Welcome" and went back to his cell phone. Not a big deal in the grand scheme of things but shouldn't you, the dealer, be the one saying "thank you"? I also saw a nice Postwar boxed set in the   Red (?) hall. Stood there looking at it, looked around to see if anyone was around and no obvious table owner was there. I get it if you need a bathroom break or something but even the neighbors said he had been gone a while. Guess you didn't really want the sale. Perhaps this is "show and tell" instead of "make money" for some. 

Crowds: I would be stunned if it was over 10K this April. To me, it was DEAD. A ghost town. As I've said time and time again, if they want the public in there and/or for this thing to survive, the half day Thursday and Saturday and all day Friday isn't going to work. You HAVE to have it Saturday and Sunday from 10-5 or similar. 

Sales: I bought a trio of Postwar freight cars and a set of MTH Passenger cars, plus some JT's smoke fluid. This was actually the first York in a few years I've actually bought something. I spoke to many that didn't buy anything and I heard one dealer say it was a "terrible" show in terms of sales. On the other hand, Gryzboskis (spelling?) told me they were making money and doing well. I guess it depends on what they had and their prices. 

Me: A bad day at York (no such thing) is way better than sitting in my office on a Friday. I always have loved going to York and always will. I personally have always had a preference for the October show over April anyway. I'll be going to York as much as I can until either I'm dead or York is dead. Hopefully neither anytime soon. 

Just my $0.02......

I agree with the title of this thread. It is still fun to go but not as fun as when there are more venders and importers there. It was easily the smallest attendace since I have been going. Their are some deals to be had but alot of prices are ridiculous. I did get the mth challlenger used in the lawsuit against lionel from the mth parts booth for 400 otherwise I would have come home with nothing. John

So, if York dries up and blows away, how many here are going to quit the hobby?

Rusty

gmorlitz posted: ...snip... And if you can't afford the few dollars for the subscription, you don't belong in the hobby.

Gerry

Now, there is a GREAT!!! attitude.

The Great Yogi Berra said it best when he said "Nobody goes there any more. It's too crowded". Some old-timers were not there. We met several that was there for the first time.  Were there fewer people there? Probably. What matters to me; my friends and I were there and we had a great time.

My foot was not run over by a grumpy old man on a red scooter in the Red Hall (like happened last October). IMHO, that's a good thing.

The hobby is dying. York is dying. Quality is dead.

I wonder why some folks even bother?  The only joy that some folks seems to get out of model trains is complaining about things and sharing their dread with the rest of us.

If I felt this way, I would get rid of all my trains and find a new hobby! 

Jim

OK so the attendance was a little low, all the dealers that I know personally told me that had a good day at their tables Thurs and Friday.  As for myself I had a blast, found some great deals and some items I've been looking for. The best part of it all is that I was able to visit and fellowship with some great long distance friends.  I will continue to go to York as long as there is a York.  Keep up the good work Eastern Division TCA!

Dennis LaGrua post  The bottom line is that the attendance at York is declining due to the admission restrictions, cost to attend and less/no interest from the younger people. In contrast the Allentown Meet welcomes everyone, had a record attendance for the Spring Thaw meet, and is thriving. That show was packed from wall to wall. The hobby is still alive just evolving away from York.

 

Yes, it shouldn't be too expensive just getting in the door. Lionel should at least show up to advertise new or improved products. Also you have to keep PROMOTING the HOBBY! Mike Wolf was there. PROMOTING the PRODUCT and HOBBY.

Ralph M posted:

I'm more and more inclined to stay at home on my computer and click on stuff I want to buy off of eBay or some other on-line outlet. 

 

Fine, have fun.

Sounds like everybody on this thread got what they wanted.  Those who wanted to have a good experience, those who wanted a poor experience, and the complainers got what they wanted by staying home.

York is a win-win for everybody.

Now wasn't that easy?