The incredible shrinking York

One thing I heard from more than 4 tables is that Spring is not nearly as popular as the Fall meet, so take that into account.  The discussion overheard was that winter is the time more people are thinking trains as well as thinking approaching Christmas.  I always attend in the Spring as my birthday is in April and it's my little celebration.

I attended as a guest for the second year in a row.  There were a few vendors having "going out of business" sales but many looked strong.  It does seem that modern is more popular now than old PW equipment.

Prices at some vendors were lower than I've seen in previous years and even though I have no room left I almost "had" to pick up more trains though my visit was for layout building materials.

As far as demise of the show that is more up to the vendors I think.  There were more trains and model supplies there than I ever see in one place.  For me, seeing items in person and skipping shipping costs is worth the trip but I live within driving distance of York.

Thank Heavens for the modular layout groups as that is where I saw the most kids and parents.  Great job pulling new folks in. 

TylerCH posted:

I'm younger and have never been to York, even if it's smaller than it was at its' peak I understand it still fills several large halls.

I have been going to York since 1984. Rather than "smaller", I like the fact that it's "less crowded". Back when it was only 2 days, you could barely walk through some halls (Red comes to mind). Yes, in these past years there are fewer dealers (R.I.P.), but this has resulted in wider aisles (Red and Blue). The dealers in most of the halls are not behind their tables...they are in the aisles, along with their chairs. Overall, I find the shopping more pleasant now than it was in "the good old days". They are still filling 6 halls. The Greenberg train show fills ONE hall in January, The National Postcard Show fills ONE hall in November.

I'm going to weigh in again.... this Spring trip to York

1.  Road Trip! (always a fun time)
2.  Breakfast at the Round the Clock Diner
3.  Socializing in the lobby of the Orange Hall for a couple of hours
4.  Telling jokes and repeating old yarns
5.  Walking. Lots of walking; good exercise
6.  Saw operating modular train layouts and got some fresh ideas for ours.
7.  Drove the Vette  Like kissing a pretty girl, what's not to like about that?
8.  Seeing old friends
9.  Meeting new friends
10.  FACE time to just say "thank you" the owners of MTH, Ross Switches, 3rd Rail, et al
11.  Dinner at Quaker Steak and Lube

And oh yeah, finding some great deals on trains. If all you want to do is to buy a toy boxcar, a trip to York has zero ROI.

Every hobby I have, and I have a bunch of them as you can see from my signature below, has a "show" and I recently made a decision to never, ever go to one ever again. They're all the same... people milling around aimlessly, buying stuff they don't really need (from vendors who are not discounting all that much and are less inclined to haggle) because of the ingrained feeling that due to the inflated price they've already paid to get into the thing, they ought to by something. At the last golf show I went to a few years ago I bought a pair of rain pants and I never play golf in the rain. That's when I realized that this was nuts and resolved to stop going. (BTW, Golf, believe it or not, has the same problem as model railroading; fewer people participating because the younger generation doesn't have the time or desire to spend the 5-6 hours on a weekend it takes to play a round.)

So all-in-all, with e-commerce sales increasing annually at a 16%, brick & mortar retail sales increasing at 2% annually and statistics showing that the preference for shopping on-line vs in-store decreases with age, the need for a "show" will eventually evaporate entirely and I, for one, will not shed any tears.

Yesterday, I attended York.  Got there about 11:00 and left around 3:30.  After browsing Memorial Hall I walked through Orange hall.  I stopped by the OGR presentation meeting under the grandstands at the invitation of Dave ?, who was monitoring the module in the Orange Hall lobby.  My last stop was the Purple Hall.  

I came away with a Bachmann On30 trolley and some nice figures from Keith Elson, K-Line operating freight station and a 97 Coal Elevator I found in the Purple hall for $40.00.  I found that the Purple Hall had some pretty good bargains.  

This has been my third or fourth York.  What I have found is that York is too big for me.  For the same reason I prefer not to shop in malls, because there is just too much there to be able to shop in a relaxed mode.  I live about a short hour from Allentown.  It's a much more pleasant drive there as is the Greenberg meet in Oaks.  Both of them, being in a single building, doesn't overwhelm what little brain is still up there.....LOL   

One thing missing from all this discussion is the impact of opening up the show to the public on Friday. Does anyone have a wild guess of what percentage of people on Friday are non-members? (I only go on Thursdays.) 

Bruce Brown posted:

One thing missing from all this discussion is the impact of opening up the show to the public on Friday. Does anyone have a wild guess of what percentage of people on Friday are non-members? (I only go on Thursdays.) 

Well, it has certainly reduced that aspect of the York complainers.   So it has been a huge success.

Bruce Brown posted:

One thing missing from all this discussion is the impact of opening up the show to the public on Friday. Does anyone have a wild guess of what percentage of people on Friday are non-members? (I only go on Thursdays.) 

For all practical purposes York is still a members only event. Public entrance is only granted for two halls on Friday & Saturday.  This restriction leads me to believe that the impact of allowing the public permission to spend their money for admission, to see part of the show, part of the time, has a minimal impact.  It would take a smart organization to realize that members only shows are not only the norm, but also a thing of the past.  Just imagine where OGR would be if it was a member only magazine and non-members received only the first five pages at the same price!

As always, I had a great time. My wife could take it or leave it, but we include a trip to the Lancaster area to sate her likes. I first went in about 2000, when the crowds were there, and the Yellow Hall was the main dealer hall, and have only missed one or two since. I have made a lot of great friendships, which mostly started because of on line forums, and then meeting the folks at York. I also made a lot of friends when I was a vendor. I continue to meet new people, many of whom I communicate via forums. 

As has been mentioned, several manufacturers and dealers were not there, but the manufacturers don't sell, they are there to maintain a presence, and interact with attendees. I don't even stop at the Manufacturers' displays, as meeting friends and shopping the halls are my reason for going. I kind of enjoy the less crowded aisles, and as long as York and I exist, I will continue to attend. 

I am curious as to the amount of attendees from the public; is it the same, more or less. I ran into some friends from home who made the trip just to go to the dealer halls, and they were positive about the experience.  I might add that I haven't gotten anything at York for quite some time, but I still enjoy going.

Steve, (LI train), it was nice seeing you again.

I was there Thursday and Friday till the end of both days and enjoyed it immensely. The was my 68th straight York.Lots of great deals to be had. I picked up a Lionel legacy Sd70ace in the UP/WP HERITAGE scheme. Also a Chessie caboose by MTH. The crowd was a little thinner but then it was April. 

A few of the vendors were not there, did I miss them, not really. 

Saw allot of friends and talked till I was horse. It was great to see the likes of Don, Brian, Craig, Peter, Erol, and many others I have forgotten, please excuse me. 

Don Kane, sorry I missed you to talk, it was great seeing you.

Dave

DAVID1, It's good to see the (above) posting by you. I was hoping you might include a reply among this thread.

For me, you have always been interesting to read, on this forum, as well as interesting to converse with during our in-person interactions. I'm very glad to have met you, and to see that you are well, strong, and happy.

And to everybody else who has commented upon the positive social aspects of attending the TCA Meet at York, this gentleman, David1, and having come to know him, is an example of why I have always valued the York experience. The adventure of it. The creative stimulation.The products. The people. A wonderful hobby, populated by a whole lot of very pleasant people with like-interests.

It's a treasure, and a personal one at that.

IMHO.

Respectfully,

FrankM

Even though I am primarily a scale operator and found little for sale in the member halls, I had so much fun walking these halls that I have joined the TCA and plan on attending more York meets! 

I want to applaud the Eastern Division for all the hard work that goes in making a meet like this possible!   

I think the TCA and Eastern Division did everything possible to make the event welcoming to the public. The dealer halls were open to the public. The ENTIRE event (all 3 days) was made available to anyone who wanted to pay only $23 for a one-time guest registration, with no TCA membership required. The guest registration was the option I took and now I'm hooked!

Jim

I have never been to York, but would love to go. My son and I would like to go in the fall. Can someone provide me with the dates? Do I have to be a TCA member? Is there lodging in the area? Thanks.

Right now I’m sitting outside the Silver Hall after pre-registering for October’s Meet. I’m watching people still carrying packages of trains out. 

I had such a great time. Connecting with and dining with friends and getting some trains I never expected or planned to. I couldn’t have planned it any better. I don’t want to leave. I want all you guys to come back so we can talk trains, catch up with our families and hang out some more. But I look forward to seeing you all in October, if not sooner. Time to get my new layout started!!

To me the York Meet is like a holiday, vacation with friends and a multi day party all wrapped up in one. And with all the trains added. I thank and appreciate all who volunteer to make this fabulous event run so nicely. 

  Now, ya see, right there, in TRAINDIESEL / Brian's posting (above),  is exactly the kind of attitude that will help keep the TCA Meet a success and this hobby alive-and-well.

IMO

FrankM

Thank you Frank M for your kind words. I hope things are going well for you, I know it is a tough time right now but trust me that things will get better and the remembrances you have of the good times will never fade. 

Your post about Brian's attitude is one of the best I have ever read. Your right on about Brian. A great guy and I am glad I can call him a friend. I'm always excided to see him at York since he moved to the west coast and catch up what is going with each other's life's. That is what York is all about, friends and trains. 

Dave

david1 posted:

Thank you Frank M for your kind words. I hope things are going well for you, I know it is a tough time right now but trust me that things will get better and the remembrances you have of the good times will never fade. 

Your post about Brian's attitude is one of the best I have ever read. Your right on about Brian. A great guy and I am glad I can call him a friend. I'm always excided to see him at York since he moved to the west coast and catch up what is going with each other's life's. That is what York is all about, friends and trains. 

Dave

Thank you, Dave.

And I noticed you put "friends" first. It appears you have your priorities straight. Both are important to us, but it is the people - our connections to them - that give life its true, full worth. IMO.

Thank you, again, for this reach-back.

FrankM

(I am finding my way.)

Dennis LaGrua posted:

In contrast the Allentown Meet welcomes everyone, had a record attendance for the Spring Thaw meet, and is thriving. That show was packed from wall to wall. The hobby is still alive just evolving away from York.

 

I couldn’t disagree more. How do you speak for York when you no longer attend. Why not re-join and volunteer at one of the halls as many do, and try to make it better. 

david1 posted:

I was there Thursday and Friday till the end of both days and enjoyed it immensely. The was my 68th straight York.Lots of great deals to be had. I picked up a Lionel legacy Sd70ace in the UP/WP HERITAGE scheme. Also a Chessie caboose by MTH. The crowd was a little thinner but then it was April. 

A few of the vendors were not there, did I miss them, not really. 

Saw allot of friends and talked till I was horse. It was great to see the likes of Don, Brian, Craig, Peter, Erol, and many others I have forgotten, please excuse me. 

Don Kane, sorry I missed you to talk, it was great seeing you.

Dave

Dave, I was running in several directions trying to connect with a few guys to deliver some packages. For the past several meets, my time has been divided between York and Lancaster in a one day trip. I was hoping to chat with you, and I had initially intended to stay until at least noon for the MTF photo. We've had some great conversations in the past, my number one reason for attending, the friendships that have developed and grown. I will be retired as of June, so maybe I can get back to the days of yore for a three day stay, or at least an over nighter!

Saturday was light traffic.  I still managed to spend lots more. The deals were great.  I purchased a brand new MTH Ps3.0 Decapod for 700. Still loving York! !

Isn't it strange that those who complain the most are the ones who don't attend and haven't done so for years?  Are they complaining to justify their not going or not going to justify their complaining.  After several years of going as a member and working as a vendor's assistant, I probably have all the trains I will ever need or want.  I went this time just to meet up with old friends, catch up on their news, and to see what the vendors had to offer.  I wasn't looking for anything in particular but I still came home with a few goodies and some good memories.  So, to the naysayers I say:  If you're going to rain on my parade, have the decency to at least provide me with an umbrella.  It gets a little damp under that cloud of yours.

xrayvizhen posted:

Every hobby I have, and I have a bunch of them as you can see from my signature below, has a "show" and I recently made a decision to never, ever go to one ever again. They're all the same... people milling around aimlessly, buying stuff they don't really need (from vendors who are not discounting all that much and are less inclined to haggle) because of the ingrained feeling that due to the inflated price they've already paid to get into the thing, they ought to by something. At the last golf show I went to a few years ago I bought a pair of rain pants and I never play golf in the rain. That's when I realized that this was nuts and resolved to stop going. (BTW, Golf, believe it or not, has the same problem as model railroading; fewer people participating because the younger generation doesn't have the time or desire to spend the 5-6 hours on a weekend it takes to play a round.)

So all-in-all, with e-commerce sales increasing annually at a 16%, brick & mortar retail sales increasing at 2% annually and statistics showing that the preference for shopping on-line vs in-store decreases with age, the need for a "show" will eventually evaporate entirely and I, for one, will not shed any tears.

 

 

Are you in TCA and have you actually been to the York meet, or are you criticizing something that you know absolutely nothing about?  And if you haven't been to York, how dare you?!

Although I'll agree with you about "shows" for other hobbies, trains in general and especially York in particular are nothing at all like that.  You'll find unusual stuff that you won't see anywhere else, and there are many bargains to be had.  And that's before one considers all of the social benefits of going.

OKHIKER posted:

My feeling is this- the heck with the constant naysayers, I'm going to keep the pedal to the metal for as long as I can and will savor every moment I spend at York that I can because there will come a day that I won't be able to.   In my own way I will continue to highlight the positive benefits of the York meets and the relationships that I have forged there in the hopes that others will feel the same way and keep their pedal to the metal as well.   Bottom line-people who say that they love the hobby, enjoy trains and train meets should spend more time touting the highlights of these meets rather than the lowlights.

Well said! I'm just back from York myself, and share your feelings 100%.  I had a great time! Sold a few trains I had advertised on this forum,  and came back with some good buys. Thanks to all who took the time to say "Hi" to me and to share a few moments discussing trains and other things. And thanks--always--to all who support the magazine, and that includes subscribers, advertisers, and those who just pick up OGR at their local bookstore or other outlet.

Strummer posted:

I'm guessing photography is not allowed, as we're not seeing any pictures(?)

From the event itself, I mean...not the restaurants... 

Mark in Oregon

Photography IS allowed in the dealer halls. I wish I had taken some photos, but spent most of my time looking for trains and talking to people (not necessarily in that order).

gmorlitz posted: My new plan is to give people who are interested in my layout a one year paper subscription to OGR. That way they will be getting something about the hobby throughout they year and they can become aware of meets, etc. That will start with someone visiting me in a couple of weeks.

Gerry

It goes without saying, I suppose, that from my perspective it sure would be great if a whole lot of folks did that! Heck, it would be truly great if the majority of those many thousands who participate on this forum would just subscribe to the print, digital, or both forms of the magazine. That would really help OGR and the hobby as a whole in many ways. Supporting and advancing the hobby is what we are all about, and I would like to believe we are going about it in the right way.

Allan Miller posted:

Strummer posted:

I'm guessing photography is not allowed, as we're not seeing any pictures(?)

From the event itself, I mean...not the restaurants... 

Mark in Oregon

Photography IS allowed in the dealer halls. I wish I had taken some photos, but spent most of my time looking for trains and talking to people (not necessarily in that order).

 

Allan,

  I've never been to York and maybe never will. Based on what you said, can I imply that there are some halls where photography is not permitted? What would be the reason for that, it's not like this is top secret stuff! I mentioned this on other York topics, that if people can't see what York is like ahead of time, why on earth would they want to possibly drive for several hours (in some cases)? I've worked at other train shows in the past and never heard of photography restrictions. 

Tom 

As with most things, this hobby (which of course is NOT cheap, and never has been), is subject to the forces of economics, and attendance at York will be similarly affected.  As is well known, although unemployment levels are quite low, middle class wages have remained stagnant, while those in the upper-middle and upper classes have advanced significantly. Income disparity has never been more pronounced, and is increasing, and things like the well-publicized shock effect of the latest tax bill have had a more recent impact as well.

As a result, discretionary income is presently under a lot of strain for many Americans. This is cyclical to some degree, but what is happening now has become a long-term trend. I would think these economic factors are having some effect on whether some people can justify the time and expense of a trip to York. Just some thoughts.

Bruce Brown posted:

One thing missing from all this discussion is the impact of opening up the show to the public on Friday. Does anyone have a wild guess of what percentage of people on Friday are non-members? (I only go on Thursdays.) 

I have no idea, however, from 8:15 to 9 I was sitting at a table in the Orange Hall lobby on Friday that gave me a clear shot of people buying "public" tickets and wrist bands. I'd guess I saw a total of maybe 15 during that 45 minute period. Possibly many more may have come after the opening. 

breezinup posted:

 As is well known, although unemployment levels are quite low, middle class wages have remained stagnant, while those in the upper-middle and upper classes have advanced significantly. Income disparity has never been more pronounced, and is increasing, and things like the well-publicized shock effect of the latest tax bill have had a more recent impact as well.

 

Are you running for President in 2020? 

Joe Hohmann posted:

breezinup posted:

 As is well known, although unemployment levels are quite low, middle class wages have remained stagnant, while those in the upper-middle and upper classes have advanced significantly. Income disparity has never been more pronounced, and is increasing, and things like the well-publicized shock effect of the latest tax bill have had a more recent impact as well.

 

Are you running for President in 2020? 

My wife said she didn't care, but I needed finish her to-do list first. That'll take me well past 2020.  

gandydancer1950 posted:

I have never been to York, but would love to go. My son and I would like to go in the fall. Can someone provide me with the dates? Do I have to be a TCA member? Is there lodging in the area? Thanks.

Just got back at 9:45 this morning. Weather going south looked bad and gettting worse so we left early (5:05).

Take a look on-line at the York Train Meet and you will find plenty of info.

Fall meet is October 17-19. There are plenty of hotels in the area.

You can be registered as a guest; I would be glad to do this for you. You can attend as a guest once without being a TCA member OR the general public is welcome Friday/Saturday in the dealer halls. You have to register.

Send me an e-mail and I will be glad to help. It is a fun time and a great way to meet people, buy all the stuff you “must have”, and enjoy the hobby. My e-mail address is in my info.

Bill Webb posted:

gandydancer1950 posted:

I have never been to York, but would love to go. My son and I would like to go in the fall. Can someone provide me with the dates? Do I have to be a TCA member? Is there lodging in the area? Thanks.

 

Just got back at 9:45 this morning. Weather going south looked bad and gettting worse so we left early (5:05).

Take a look on-line at the York Train Meet and you will find plenty of info.

Fall meet is October 17-19. There are plenty of hotels in the area.

You can be registered as a guest; I would be glad to do this for you. You can attend as a guest once without being a TCA member OR the general public is welcome Friday/Saturday in the dealer halls. You have to register.

Send me an e-mail and I will be glad to help. It is a fun time and a great way to meet people, buy all the stuff you “must have”, and enjoy the hobby. My e-mail address is in my info.

 

 

You can also register as a guest of the TCA itself.  You can register as a guest either on-line or at the meet.  I went on Thursday and registered as a guest at the meet, enjoyed all of the halls (member and dealer), came home and decided that I had so much, fun that I joined the TCA on-line! 

Jim

I was only able to attend York on Thursday because of work commitments..  For me going to York, is like "A Kid in a Candy Store!!!!"  Trains galore!!!  I love that feeling and totally appreciate the TCA for running two great shows/year. I try go to 10 shows a year, which includes  Greenberg shows, TCA, Allentown and Eastern States Big Train Show. The TCA York shows are by far the best ones.. This TCA show I walked through all the halls to see everything  I can possible see for a one day visit.  I bought some stuff for my taste.  Yes, attendance was down compared to previous years Spring Meets , but was still so enjoyable.  I will go back for Fall and Spring year after year...Only wished I had more money and time this Spring!!! This was my 8th TCA year for going to at least one show.  

I was at York on Thursday when it opened at noon. Great idea. Wider isles are great. I have been  there many times since 1981. What I really noticed is the prices of standard gauge have come down significantly. I was hoping to see Neil Young and Daryl Hannah  at the meet but no such luck. Last time I saw him the autograph hounds swarmed the poor guy.

York is still an awesome  experience.

Johnny Yuma posted:

I was at York on Thursday when it opened at noon. Great idea. Wider isles are great. I have been  there many times since 1981. What I really noticed is the prices of standard gauge have come down significantly. I was hoping to see Neil Young and Daryl Hannah  at the meet but no such luck. Last time I saw him the autograph hounds swarmed the poor guy.

York is still an awesome  experience.

So Neil Young was there in October?  I thought I passed him - caught a glimpse of his badge, but wasn't sure.  The guy I saw was not as tall as I expected.

What's the weather forecast for October? 

York is York, the mecca of train shows. I have been going off and on since 1989. Crowds have diminished over the years, we are an older bunch, but the fun finding that one item you have wanted and getting it gives you a sense of I finally got it. The aisles were wider but some of the vendors were missing too. That was sort of sad. Seeing up and coming product makes me decide to buy more so then the catalog. This York was a good one for me. I got a few things I wanted but also I spent a lot of time catching up with old friends. Like Allan Miller said I will go to York as long as I am able to......................Paul

My son and I just got back from York. We love going. Been going since 1987 and have missed just a couple in that time frame. York is the best train meet there is to see and/or buy o-gauge trains. There is no other place in the world that you will see so many o-gauge trains at one time. Yes the crowd is down from the  heyday but it still is the best place to see and find the trains you want. While some other shows may draw larger crowds a large number of those people are there to be entertained, not to  try to buy something. The York people are there to buy trains that they have been looking for. I don't even bother to go to some of the other shows that draw larger numbers of the general public because the product is not there and I would never try to sell at one. For my time and money York will always be the best train meet there is.

I have only been to York once. Spring of 2018. Had a fantastic time and bought lots. I’m hoping to go in October this year as I am about two weeks away from retirement. Now money may be more of an issue than time off of work. It’s always something, but I am so looking forward to it.

I have been coming to York Meets since 2002. I have only missed a couple due to conflicts with business trips and I have thoroughly enjoyed every one of them. While attendance has declined somewhat over the years, that has not detracted in any way from my experience. I enjoy everything about the York Meets - the building anticipation and excitement before each Meet, preparing my list of items to purchase, helping my colleagues Rich Roman and Stan Wisniewski from East Coast Enterprises set up their booth in the Orange Hall on Wednesday, walking the dealer and member halls on Thursday and Friday, negotiating with dealers and members to get a better price, meeting with old colleagues and building some new friendships, looking at the operating layouts, and picking up items I have purchased in advance from dealers who are kind enough to bring them to York, thereby saving me delivery costs and the anxiety about potential damage in transit. I am always totally relaxed and on a high throughout each York Meet and somewhat melancholy when the Meet ends.

I found this particular Meet to be excellent. The weather was better than usual for an April Meet. While a couple of the manufacturers were not there, virtually all of the top dealers were. The dealer halls were busy and in speaking to a few of the dealers, the consistent response was that sales were brisk. The member halls were also very busy when I visited them. There were plenty of great deals at this Meet. There always are at York Meets. You just had to search them out. I was able to find and purchase everything on my list. I also purchased some items I had no intention of purchasing, like a PRR Lantern from the lantern guy in the Blue Hall.

There was also some great news for me and possibly for some of you. I have a Proto-3 PRR J1 that has had an issue for several years with a tether that keeps disconnecting. I have had some really bad experiences with it like the time it disconnected in the middle of the longest tunnel on my layout. It had been back to MTH several times but the issue kept recurring. Jason from MTH communicated to me on Friday that MTH recently developed a part to hold the tethers on their steam engines together for both their 6 and 10 pin connectors. That totally made my day!

Already looking forward to October!

Pat