I have two loops setup, outer on TIU Variable 1 and inner (and yard tracks) on TIU Variable2. When any engine goes from inner to outer loop or vice versa, the engine shuts down and ONLY the inner loop shuts off. I have the inner and outer loops insulated between switches in the red circle.
Also, the Dash 8 only will shut off in the blue circle coming out of the yard.
What is going on?
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try tying the outside rails together? Maybe the engine is losing power?
How are you insulating the sections?
Engineer-Joe,
What do you mean tie the outside rails together? They are all grounded via terminal blocks from the TIU
Only insulating using electrical tape. At least thats my attempt at insulation
I think when you use the MTH lock-ons, they go to one outside rail.
At a quick glance it appears that the loops only have one rail in use then. I'm just wondering if the engines are stalling across switches from losing the outside rail?
Are you just using tape with the center rail correct?
I'm only guessing here!
PS. I run 2 rail mainly!
Thats okay I like guessing. Any help will work. I'm only insulating the center rail. This is at all points. Meaning the outside loop has 4 blocks with the center rail insulated and the inner loop with 2 blocks, center rail insulated
Just for a quick test if you have a test wire with alligator clips at the ends, tie both outside rails together and see if that helps the engine make it thru a switch in question. It's always hard to guess when you're not there. Your pictures help greatly. Someone will get this for you!
You have a lot of lock-ons. Is your circuit breaker popping on the power supply? What power supply are you using? Any chance one wire is flipped red to black? If you have two power supplies, they could be out of phase. Are the switches using track power?
George
Okay, so I've only Insulated the center rail. All outside rails should be tied together. Here is what I have.
1 Lionel Power House 180 - outside loop via tiu variable 1 (4 blocks, insulated center rails)
1 Lionel Power House 180 - inside loop via tiu variable 2 and yard tracks (2 blocks insulated at center rails)
The outside and inside loop are only insulated from one-another by the center rail between the switches.
The switches ARE using track power only because I'm going to use a Lionel KW transformer for switch power and have NO idea where to set it for power for the switches.
Could you explain how you are insulating with tape? If the pins aren't cut at the crossover or between blocks, I don't think they are isolated.
Engineer-Joe posted:I think when you use the MTH lock-ons, they go to one outside rail.
That's correct, except the 3 spur yard has the adapters on the opposite side of the track.
mjrodg3n88 posted:Okay, so I've only Insulated the center rail. All outside rails should be tied together. Here is what I have.
1 Lionel Power House 180 - outside loop via tiu variable 1 (4 blocks, insulated center rails)
1 Lionel Power House 180 - inside loop via tiu variable 2 and yard tracks (2 blocks insulated at center rails)
The outside and inside loop are only insulated from one-another by the center rail between the switches.
The switches ARE using track power only because I'm going to use a Lionel KW transformer for switch power and have NO idea where to set it for power for the switches.
Are you running the tracks as variable power tracks or have you set the variable channels to fixed? How are you powering the TIU, Fixed 1 or Aux? Is anything connected to Fixed 1 or 2? Are the engines running command or conventional?
Can you provide the stock number on the bottom of each PH 180? It will be a year and a two digit number. How did you connect them to the TIU, adapter or cut off the Molex connector?
George
You are running both loops Var 1 and Var 2 - correct? No DCS signal- just voltage?
Take a caboose. lighted of course, and push it around your layout with both throttle powered.
My guess is you are losing power on the center rail.
Next - take a multimeter to isolate it as center rail or outside rail. Something is isolated in those two sections.
bruce
the engine shuts down and ONLY the inner loop shuts off.
I think you may have a track feeder problem.... Proto-2 engines carry on with the last command given in the event of a signal loss.
Did you phase the Bricks ?
George S posted:That's correct, except the 3 spur yard has the adapters on the opposite side of the track.
The lock-ons can only be connected to certain spots on RealTrax which is why they are on different sides in different places
George S posted:Are you running the tracks as variable power tracks or have you set the variable channels to fixed? How are you powering the TIU, Fixed 1 or Aux? Is anything connected to Fixed 1 or 2? Are the engines running command or conventional?
When a conventional engine is on the track, I use variable power, but when one of the PS2 or PS3 engines are on it, I change the variable to fixed so that they run in command. The TIU is powered through the Aux input via a Z500 brick. Nothing is connected to fixed 1 or 2.Can you provide the stock number on the bottom of each PH 180? It will be a year and a two digit number. How did you connect them to the TIU, adapter or cut off the Molex connector?
When I get home, I can get the numbers. I cut the Molex connector off and replaced it with barrel jacks to go to the TIU. The center of the Molex connector is the hot wire according to the underside of the PH180, so that wire went to the red terminal of the TIU
bruce benzie posted:You are running both loops Var 1 and Var 2 - correct? No DCS signal- just voltage?
Correct on the first part, both loops are variable, the outside loop is powered through Variable 1 and the Inside loop is powered through Variable 2. The PS2 and PS3 engines are using the DCS signal, yes. Voltage variation power only when a conventional engine is on the track.
Next - take a multimeter to isolate it as center rail or outside rail. Something is isolated in those two sections.
Could you clarify what you mean here?
Gregg posted:the engine shuts down and ONLY the inner loop shuts off. Correct
Did you phase the Bricks ?
How exactly do you do that?
Gregg posted:the engine shuts down and ONLY the inner loop shuts off.
I think you may have a track feeder problem.... Proto-2 engines carry on with the last command given in the event of a signal loss.
Did you phase the Bricks ?
I suspect it is a phasing problem with the bricks, but I am not sure how the layout is being operated yet. It sounds like the TIU is being used to control track power, which can create some voltage differences between blocks. Since the trains run independently on the loops, it appears to be a problem when the two loops are bridged. If one loop is shutting down, I assume this means the PH 180 breaker is popping. That would indicate a phase problem or short.
The blue circle is a place where the outside rail power changes from one side to the other. Since the longer train is having problems there, it seems to be a problem where the engine is bridging the outside rails from separate lock-on's. It could also be a problem with the switch track connections.
George
Some Lionel PH 180 power supplies had phase problems. Here is a link. https://www.lionelsupport.com/...ents/72-2983-251.pdf
On the bad PH 180's the polarity was reversed internally, black was red and vice versa. However, you may have accidently swapped the wires when you added the barrel jacks, a common mistake, which is why I started using adapters instead. Plus, then I don't need to cut off the Molex connector.
To check the phase, make sure both PH 180's are plugged into the same power strip or wall outlet. Then, take a lighted lock-on or an 18 volt bulb, connect it by itself across the black var 1 and var 2 inputs of the TIU with the PH 180's turned on. If the light turns on, the PH 180's are out of phase. You can also check across the red inputs with the bulb to make double sure.
George
Here's an easy way to tell if your bricks are in phase.. Take a light bulb or volt meter and measure or see how bright the bulb is by measuring the difference between both brick zones using the center rail.
EX When a train goes from bricks 1 s track to brick 2s track there's an insulated pin on the center rail separating the zones Measure the voltage between the center rails between zoneS,
YEP center rail to center rail (no outside rails used) the voltage should be very low and the bulb almost dim if the bricks are in phase.. If you're getting a high voltage( 38 or so volts) the brIcks are out of phase. This is a pretty easy test without having to take anything apart.
Gregg posted:Here's an easy way to tell if your bricks are in phase.. Take a light bulb or volt meter and measure or see how bright the bulb is by measuring the difference between both brick zones using the center rail.
EX When a train goes from bricks 1 s track to brick 2s track there's an insulated pin on the center rail separating the zones Measure the voltage between the center rails between zoneS,
YEP center rail to center rail (no outside rails used) the voltage should be very low and the bulb almost dim if the bricks are in phase.. If you're getting a high voltage( 38 or so volts) the brIcks are out of phase. This is a pretty easy test without having to take anything apart.
One other thing to check, with all of the power off, connect a multimeter set to ohms across your isolated center rail. If it shows connectivity, your rails are not isolated.
George S posted:Engineer-Joe posted:I think when you use the MTH lock-ons, they go to one outside rail.
That's correct, except the 3 spur yard has the adapters on the opposite side of the track.
I saw that. I was thinking that for some reason the engine lost power after the switch.
I never considered a phasing problem. This is interesting.
I'd guess that engine is loosing the common on the inner switch with the non derailing rails and the rubber tires. When it stalls if you wiggle it does it come to life?
As they have said use a meter and see if there is any voltage across the center rails a the outer switch.
May have missed it, curious if you have tried powering it all with one source?
BobbyD posted:I'd guess that engine is loosing the common on the inner switch with the non derailing rails and the rubber tires. When it stalls if you wiggle it does it come to life?
As they have said use a meter and see if there is any voltage across the center rails a the outer switch.
May have missed it, curious if you have tried powering it all with one source?
I just went through this over the weekend on my layout with a long Ross crossover. Losing the common in the switch was exactly what was shutting my MTH engine down. I was told the wheel sets on MTH engines are electrically isolated from side to side which is why all of my Lionel goes through the same spot without any issue.
I guess we need to know what exactly this statement means
"the engine shuts down and ONLY the inner loop shuts off"
Does the breaker trip? Total loss of power then?
I first thought he just described that engine losing power and overlooked the deeper meaning.
Engineer-Joe posted:I guess we need to know what exactly this statement means
"the engine shuts down and ONLY the inner loop shuts off"
Does the breaker trip? Total loss of power then?
I first thought he just described that engine losing power and overlooked the deeper meaning.
It looks like the switches are track powered so if the engine is loosing common there when crossing between loops the lanterns would remain illuminated.
If the engine stops and the lights go out, loss of power caused by short?
mjrodg3n88 posted:George S posted:Are you running the tracks as variable power tracks or have you set the variable channels to fixed? How are you powering the TIU, Fixed 1 or Aux? Is anything connected to Fixed 1 or 2? Are the engines running command or conventional?
When a conventional engine is on the track, I use variable power, but when one of the PS2 or PS3 engines are on it, I change the variable to fixed so that they run in command. The TIU is powered through the Aux input via a Z500 brick. Nothing is connected to fixed 1 or 2.Can you provide the stock number on the bottom of each PH 180? It will be a year and a two digit number. How did you connect them to the TIU, adapter or cut off the Molex connector?
When I get home, I can get the numbers. I cut the Molex connector off and replaced it with barrel jacks to go to the TIU. The center of the Molex connector is the hot wire according to the underside of the PH180, so that wire went to the red terminal of the TIU
"I cut the Molex connector off and replaced it with barrel jacks to go to the TIU."
I would have purchased the adapters rather than cut them off, easier to keep tabs on which is which. In any case, IIRC one of the conductors is ribbed. Make sure those conductors from your bricks both go to the same side of your lock-ons. If the bricks are in phase there should be no voltage potential between the center rails at the switches.
Gregg posted:the engine shuts down and ONLY the inner loop shuts off.
I think you may have a track feeder problem.... Proto-2 engines carry on with the last command given in the event of a signal loss.
Did you phase the Bricks ?
This makes the best sense for what's described. The engine would cross onto the other loop and send power straight to ground. You'd think there'd be arcing but luckily if this is happening, those bricks are tripping fast. I'm not sure why both don't trip? Maybe just luck from lack of ground?
George S posted:If one loop is shutting down, I assume this means the PH 180 breaker is popping. That would indicate a phase problem or short.
The blue circle is a place where the outside rail power changes from one side to the other. Since the longer train is having problems there, it seems to be a problem where the engine is bridging the outside rails from separate lock-on's. It could also be a problem with the switch track connections.
Okay, thank you for your advice here. I changed all of the lock-ons to the same side of all of the tracks. I ran the Dash 8 right after I changed them and in ran fine through the blue circle. Later though, it stopped. After some close inspection, I noticed a lot of the pins on the outside rails are bent, so I think if I check/fix all of those, it may fix it.
BobbyD posted:I'd guess that engine is loosing the common on the inner switch with the non derailing rails and the rubber tires. When it stalls if you wiggle it does it come to life?
It did not when over the switches in the red circle, but when it is in the blue circle, yes.
May have missed it, curious if you have tried powering it all with one source?
I haven't, but I think I have figured out the issue.
Engineer-Joe posted:I guess we need to know what exactly this statement means
"the engine shuts down and ONLY the inner loop shuts off"
Exactly that. When the engine would go across the switches between the inner and outer loop, the engine would shut down and all of the lighted lock-ons, switch lights, and bumper lights on the inner loop would shut off.Does the breaker trip? Total loss of power then?
I'm assuming its the breaker. To fix it, I'd just unplug the power then plug it back in and the inner loop comes back to life (with the train removed.)
BobbyD posted:I would have purchased the adapters rather than cut them off, easier to keep tabs on which is which. In any case, IIRC one of the conductors is ribbed. Make sure those conductors from your bricks both go to the same side of your lock-ons. If the bricks are in phase there should be no voltage potential between the center rails at the switches.
I would've went that route if I knew that the connectors existed. No big deal though!
Okay, so here is my update. It was in fact a phasing issue, well at lease the red circle was. The first thing I did was used a lighted lock-on to test the ouput feeds from the TIU. The lighted lock-on did not indicate any type of phasing issue. I played with the switches and their connections for quite some time and couldn't figure it out. Finally after a while, I realized that the when placing the lighted lock-on across the inner loop ground and outer loop ground, it would light. I switched the input connections from one of the PH180s and success. The PH in question had the number 2000 46 on the bottom, indicated it is one with a phasing issue.
I have successfully sent the Dash 8 and one SD70 from the inner to outer loop and back.
The only issues that I'm having now is just in the blue circle, where the engine shuts down when on both the switch and first straight track. I'm hoping this is just a grounding issue between pins.
Check where the rollers are when it stalls. They could be on sections not powered on the switch.
mjrodg3n88 posted:George S posted:If one loop is shutting down, I assume this means the PH 180 breaker is popping. That would indicate a phase problem or short.
The blue circle is a place where the outside rail power changes from one side to the other. Since the longer train is having problems there, it seems to be a problem where the engine is bridging the outside rails from separate lock-on's. It could also be a problem with the switch track connections.
Okay, thank you for your advice here. I changed all of the lock-ons to the same side of all of the tracks. I ran the Dash 8 right after I changed them and in ran fine through the blue circle. Later though, it stopped. After some close inspection, I noticed a lot of the pins on the outside rails are bent, so I think if I check/fix all of those, it may fix it.
BobbyD posted:I'd guess that engine is loosing the common on the inner switch with the non derailing rails and the rubber tires. When it stalls if you wiggle it does it come to life?
It did not when over the switches in the red circle, but when it is in the blue circle, yes.
May have missed it, curious if you have tried powering it all with one source?
I haven't, but I think I have figured out the issue.Engineer-Joe posted:I guess we need to know what exactly this statement means
"the engine shuts down and ONLY the inner loop shuts off"
Exactly that. When the engine would go across the switches between the inner and outer loop, the engine would shut down and all of the lighted lock-ons, switch lights, and bumper lights on the inner loop would shut off.Does the breaker trip? Total loss of power then?
I'm assuming its the breaker. To fix it, I'd just unplug the power then plug it back in and the inner loop comes back to life (with the train removed.)
BobbyD posted:I would have purchased the adapters rather than cut them off, easier to keep tabs on which is which. In any case, IIRC one of the conductors is ribbed. Make sure those conductors from your bricks both go to the same side of your lock-ons. If the bricks are in phase there should be no voltage potential between the center rails at the switches.
I would've went that route if I knew that the connectors existed. No big deal though!
Okay, so here is my update. It was in fact a phasing issue, well at lease the red circle was. The first thing I did was used a lighted lock-on to test the ouput feeds from the TIU. The lighted lock-on did not indicate any type of phasing issue. I played with the switches and their connections for quite some time and couldn't figure it out. Finally after a while, I realized that the when placing the lighted lock-on across the inner loop ground and outer loop ground, it would light. I switched the input connections from one of the PH180s and success. The PH in question had the number 2000 46 on the bottom, indicated it is one with a phasing issue.
I have successfully sent the Dash 8 and one SD70 from the inner to outer loop and back.
The only issues that I'm having now is just in the blue circle, where the engine shuts down when on both the switch and first straight track. I'm hoping this is just a grounding issue between pins.
Great news!
So, is the Blue circle still a problem? Up above you say you solved it by moving the lock-ons to the other side.
Best,
George
George S posted:So, is the Blue circle still a problem? Up above you say you solved it by moving the lock-ons to the other side.
The blue circle is still a problem. The first thing I did yesterday was switch the lock-ons to all the same side. Pulled the Dash 8 out of the yard and it went through the blue circle without any problem. A few runs and it only made it through that once. Same with the SD70 (which is obviously a shorter engine.)
mjrodg3n88 posted:George S posted:So, is the Blue circle still a problem? Up above you say you solved it by moving the lock-ons to the other side.
The blue circle is still a problem. The first thing I did yesterday was switch the lock-ons to all the same side. Pulled the Dash 8 out of the yard and it went through the blue circle without any problem. A few runs and it only made it through that once. Same with the SD70 (which is obviously a shorter engine.)
Interesting. Is it only a problem coming out of the yard, or does it happen on the straight too, when running around the loop?
Also, I understand the engines stall, but the loop and lock-ons are still powered, correct?
Only when coming out of the yard, sometimes on one of the switches within the yard too, but not as often as the one in question. It does not do it on the straights. Yes, the loop and lock-ons are still power (at least the lights on the switches and lock-ons stay on.)
Now another question with this, the switches are running off of track power, could that have anything to do with it? I have an old Lionel KW that I want to power them with, but am not sure where to set the power of it for the switches. (I just replied to another thread about this, probably shouldn't have since I feel like it may tie into this situation too.)
mjrodg3n88 posted:George S posted:So, is the Blue circle still a problem? Up above you say you solved it by moving the lock-ons to the other side.
The blue circle is still a problem. The first thing I did yesterday was switch the lock-ons to all the same side. Pulled the Dash 8 out of the yard and it went through the blue circle without any problem. A few runs and it only made it through that once. Same with the SD70 (which is obviously a shorter engine.)
Do they do it facing in both directions? If you can get a mini jumper cable with one end on common and the other touching a metal engine piece see if they go thru then. Maybe a picture of an engine stopped. Still guessing they are loosing common there. Check to see that all the outer rails other than the no-derailing ones have constant common. IIRC the MTH lock-ons do not connect both outer rails.
Worst case, you can even lightly drag just the engine along by hand and see if the issue occurs.
I don't think it is a problem that you are powering the switches with track power.
have you checked the curved track to switch contacts on the underside of the switch and track? Since this is a carpet layout, it's possible the weight of the engine is causing the switch to lose power to the frog.
Mike,
What transformer are you powering your FT layout with? Are you using good 14 Gauge stranded wire, and are you adhering to the 10 -12 Join engineering principle, for your wire drops? This almost sounds like you have a small Transformer and have violated the max Join engineering principle for attaining all 10's on your DCS FT layout. Give us a little more information about how your layout was built, and what Transformer you are using.
PCRR/Dave
Pine Creek Railroad posted:Mike,
What transformer are you powering your FT layout with? Are you using good 14 Gauge stranded wire, and are you adhering to the 10 -12 Join engineering principle, for your wire drops? This almost sounds like you have a small Transformer and have violated the max Join engineering principle for attaining all 10's on your DCS FT layout. Give us a little more information about how your layout was built, and what Transformer you are using.
PCRR/Dave
Dave,
He has way more power than needed, two PH 180's. He also has way more lock-ons than I have ever used, so max join doesn't seem to be a problem. Take a look at the picture at the top.
George
Are these PS2 engines? Are the batteries fully charged? If you kill power to the layout, do the engines shutdown properly and continue to play sound until after shutdown?
Is there something solid (non-metallic) you can put under the switch and curved track? Maybe a firm piece of cardboard or masonite? Something to stabilize the track joint and switch.
George,
Thanks buddy I did not start at the beginning of the thread, after looking at the picture of his layout, it would seen you are correct, and he should not be having any problems, he might want to put some BCR's in his P2 engines, but other than that he looks good to go. I am now wondering if a couple of his switches are not working properly. There were some FT switches that were causing all kinds problems before, he may want to test his switches independently also.
PCRR/Dave
BobbyD posted:Do they do it facing in both directions? If you can get a mini jumper cable with one end on common and the other touching a metal engine piece see if they go thru then. Maybe a picture of an engine stopped. Still guessing they are loosing common there. Check to see that all the outer rails other than the no-derailing ones have constant common. IIRC the MTH lock-ons do not connect both outer rails.
No, its only when leaving the yard heading out onto the inner loop. I've checked the common rail on the loop and it seems to be all connected. I say "seems" because I've noticed a lot of the track's connections are bent up a little and I've had to fix quite a few
Worst case, you can even lightly drag just the engine along by hand and see if the issue occurs.
I push it after it shuts off and it turns back on after passing the one spot. I'll post a picture at the bottom here of where it shuts off (forgot to take one last night.)
George S posted:have you checked the curved track to switch contacts on the underside of the switch and track? Since this is a carpet layout, it's possible the weight of the engine is causing the switch to lose power to the frog.
Yes, a few times, all of my track is used so I have some bent connections, but not there, those ones are good.Are these PS2 engines? Are the batteries fully charged? If you kill power to the layout, do the engines shutdown properly and continue to play sound until after shutdown?
All are PS2 and one a PS3 (not the Dash 8 where it most occurs though.) Yes, actually, I didnt know about them staying running after killing power. At first I thought, "what the?!" but now I know they are supposed to continue powering down and not simply just shut off.
Pine Creek Railroad posted:Are you using good 14 Gauge stranded wire,
I'm using 16 gauge stranded. According to Barry's book, 16 is sufficient for my size setup. A larger one would require 14 gauge though.
Note: I think the track is Realtrax, not Fastrack.
John H posted:Note: I think the track is Realtrax, not Fastrack.
That is correct, definitely RealTrax
There shouldn't be a plastic center rail, but there is a break in the center rail to create an insulated section to activate the anti-derailing feature. Is your anti-derailing working? If not, maybe there is a short in the switch itself.
Also, I assume the front trucks have pickup rollers. So you shouldn't be losing power in the switch, since the front rollers are on a separate section of track. It sounds more like a short is telling the engine to shutdown. There is another thread where someone opened a Realtrax switch and found a feed wire had burned through. Maybe try swapping the switch for a different one to see if the problem follows the switch.
George
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