Looks like they have been welding on the pilot which had been cracked.
Hmmm wonder if those number boards came from 3985?
Here's an image of 4014 in progress on it's return to Cheyenne. Looks like the number boards were in place then.
That was 5 years ago!! They've been removed since then and they were crooked and warped and what not. Easy swap is all I'm saying. I'm just saying those number boards look like they came from 3985.
Guys....the mods got alerts and we have done some editing and deleting. Try to not be so emotional and personal in your comments...otherwise the thread will be either zapped or closed...
Side bar:
Anybody have a contact in the steam shop who can email me decent pictures of 5511, inside of the cab and back head, I can use for details reference on a TTT project I have sidelined?
We all know that real trains, inspire our model trains. The Big Boys have always been popular.
Let’s check out what is new for 2019 from Lionel.
Source: Lionel L.C.C. • 6301 Performance Drive Southwest • Concord, NC
Gary: Rail-fan
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Hot Water posted:Dominic Mazoch posted:I think there was a situation with the UP 844 near San Marcos TX in 2012 where improper braking with the locomotive did cause wheel and tire damage.
The alternate Engineer on the steam crew was operating 844, and simply forgot that he had the diesel "helper" loading in about throttle 7, when he tried to slow down and stop for the scheduled service stop. After finally applying the air brakes in emergency, the current manager, who was on the left side of the cab training a Fireman, ran over and moved the power reverse lever into reverse and then cracked the throttle open, thus locking up the drivers on 844, while the diesel "helper" continued to push then forward. When the Diesel MU Control box was subsequently throttled down to idle, the consist "slid to a stop". There were a number of witness, both onboard and on the ground.
I had heard the same thing as a rumor from someone who claimed to be there, been wondering about that for a while if it was accurate.
The direct word from the person this happened to is he didn't 'forget' about the diesel helper. A relay in the diesel control stand in the cab had stuck and didn't drop out allowing to pusher to idle down. It finally disengaged a few seconds later after the train went into emergency. The control stand was thoroughly inspected and a ground fault was discovered. I believe the story, as you just don't 'forget' about 3000 HP pushing at your back. He just happened to be at the throttle when this malfunction occurred.
Kelly Anderson posted:I got that direct from a person in the cab at the time as well, a malfunction on the diesel that was found recorded on its computer screens once they got into its cab.
Sorry, but that was a smoke screen from the current manager. The diesel MU control box was checked, rechecked, and subsequently its integrity verified by the EMD Electrical Control Section of the Engineering Dept. (where it was designed and built for American Freedom Train #4449 in 1975/1976).I would be more than happy to show you copies of the original EMD Engineering "work sketch" with the late Bruce R. Meyer's name on it.
Both the Pilot Engineer and the UP Steam Crew Engineer, i.e. Ted, verified that he, Ted, simply forgot to throttle back the diesel units when trying to slow for the service stop.
Kelly Anderson posted:Hot Water posted:I don't believe that anyone else here was that day either.
Yeah I was going to say.... 
Kelly Anderson posted:Hot Water posted:Kelly Anderson posted:I got that direct from a person in the cab at the time as well, a malfunction on the diesel that was found recorded on its computer screens once they got into its cab.
Sorry, but that was a smoke screen from the current manager. The diesel MU control box was checked, rechecked, and subsequently its integrity verified by the EMD Electrical Control Section of the Engineering Dept. (where it was designed and built for American Freedom Train #4449 in 1975/1976).
I didn't say that there was any issue with the MU control box. What I was told was that the diesel locomotive itself had a malfunction.
Still not true, just another smoke screen.
I was told that its internal computerized record recorded that the inputs from the MU control box to throttle back and so on were received, but it continued to put out tractive effort just the same.
Again, false information, as I was informed by the UP Mechanical Dept. people that checked the computer on the MU'ed diesel unit, it verified that it responded to EXACTLY what it was told to do from the can of 844.
However, I wasn't there. I don't believe that anyone else here was that day either.
I did talk to more than one witness, however.
I don't often disagree with Jack, but this time yes. If it was simply just forgot to throttle back the diesels, why didn't Ed just do that instead of the emergency stop and then putting the 844 in reverse and opening the throttle trying to fight the diesel pushing, there by stalling the drivers and skidding. If the MU box for the diesels was still in RUN, Ed would have seen that.
Nobody's questioning the integrity of the design of the MU box, but parts do wear out and break. Otherwise EMD would not have a parts dept!
On a side note, I hear the original MU box has since been replaced.
Chuck Sartor posted:I don't often disagree with Jack, but this time yes. If it was simply just forgot to throttle back the diesels, why didn't Ed just do that instead of the emergency stop and then putting the 844 in reverse and opening the throttle trying to fight the diesel pushing, there by stalling the drivers and skidding. If the MU box for the diesels was still in RUN, Ed would have seen that.
And there you have the sixty four thousand dollar question! Ed was NOT on the Engineer's side, but was on the Fireman's side. What got his attention was, when Ted put the brake valve in emergency. Both men had obviously overlooked that the Diesel MU Control Box was STILL dialed up to throttle #7 or #6.
Nobody's questioning the integrity of the design of the MU box, but parts do wear out and break.
Except nothing was worn out nor broken, which was carefully verified.
Otherwise EMD would not have a parts dept!
On a side note, I hear the original MU box has since been replaced.
The "new" and much larger "MU Box" has all sorts of color lights, to fully indicate EXACTLY what throttle position the operator is using. Internally, it is still the same electrical design.
It would be great to keep this thread for updates on the UP Steamshop.
Ray
Kelly Anderson posted:Assuming that it was "pilot error" for a minute. How long do brownie points stay on an engineer's record for causing damage to an engine that takes it out of service for two weeks. It's been seven years. Is there no statute of limitations (or whatever the correct term is) or is every engineer that screws up ****ed for life?
Let it go already.
Kelly, Haters gonna hate amigo.
Kelly Anderson posted:Assuming that it was "pilot error" for a minute. How long do brownie points stay on an engineer's record for causing damage to an engine that takes it out of service for two weeks? It's been seven years. Is there no statute of limitations (or whatever the correct term is) or is every engineer that screws up ****ed for life?
Let it go already.
The brownie points stay for life, until the person eventually admits he committed an error. Not to mention all the subsequent damage to the boiler on 844, which took her out of service for about 4 YEARS! Blame for any and all "events" has always been pointed at "others" since January 2011.
My final .02. There were 2 (or more) experienced men in the cab and it wasn't their first rodeo as far as operating with a diesel pusher. How they could both 'forget' the MU box while the diesel was pushing and not idling down while the steamer was braking just seems ridicules. Ed came across the cab and jumped in the right hand seat and took over and put it in reverse and crack the throttle. These guys are not stupid. I would guess they were in panic mode about a situation that they didn't have control over.
Chuck Sartor posted:My final .02. There were 2 (or more) experienced men in the cab and it wasn't their first rodeo as far as operating with a diesel pusher. How they could both 'forget' the MU box while the diesel was pushing and not idling down while the steamer was braking just seems ridicules.
Yes,,,,,it certainly DOES sound "ridicules" (sic), but lots of other ridiculous events have happened since January 2011.
Ed came across the cab and jumped in the right hand seat
No, he simply reached across Teds lap and pulled the reverser gear into reverse, then cracked the throttle open. When the train went past the Steam Team Mechanical men on the ground, with the drivers locked & sliding on 844 (there was a video of this posted on the internet shortly after), they subsequently heard the diesel drop to idle.
and took over and put it in reverse and crack the throttle. These guys are not stupid.
Well, that is simply an opinion based statement on your part. You have never actually worked with either of them. Yes, they may not be "stupid" but a number of stupid things have been done.
I would guess they were in panic mode about a situation that they didn't have control over.
I believe the term is "Loss of situational awareness.". It happens.
Rayin"S" posted:It would be great to keep this thread for updates on the UP Steamshop.
Ray
J 611 posted:Kelly Anderson posted:Assuming that it was "pilot error" for a minute. How long do brownie points stay on an engineer's record for causing damage to an engine that takes it out of service for two weeks. It's been seven years. Is there no statute of limitations (or whatever the correct term is) or is every engineer that screws up ****ed for life?
Let it go already.
Kelly, Haters gonna hate amigo.
Yeah, unfortunate for those of us who enjoy restoration projects and have no agenda or personal vendettas always lose out to the couple people who can't resist bloviating the same old tripe they've been posting over the years every time someone shows excitement over UP Steam.
Rayin"S" posted:It would be great to keep this thread for updates on the UP Steamshop.
Ray, now you're just being silly! 
UP steam is a very polarized subject among rail preservation and fan types.
All I know are the facts that can't be disputed (such as when a locomotive is or isn't running or when it obviously is in a condition where it can't run, such as being taken apart for whatever reason). I have no opinion as I have no actual facts.
There are clearly agendas in both directions, and I'll never know for sure who was right about any of it.
The only sad part in my opinion is that even when (and I believe it's a 'when' at this point, not an 'if') 4014 starts running, a moment that should leave each one of us in child-like amazement, there'll still be haters and lots of them. Don't forget all the people who thought that 844 was 'ruined' by the removal of the mars light on the head end...
Ed and the boys might be the ultimate source of evil in the universe as they're accused of being. I have no clue either way. I just want to see 4014 on the road in steam and hopefully someday alongside a running 3985 and 844 at the same time!
Hot, What was the point of putting the engine into reverse and cracking the throttle? What was supposed to be the desired outcome?
Would it have been a better idea to immediately bail off on the engine brake, and wait for the train to come to a stop?
Thanks, makes sense.
Kelly Anderson posted:From what I was told, the entire short train's (seven cars IIRC) brakes were not enough to hold back the high HP diesel. The train had been in emergency for some time and wasn't slowing down. The fear was that the brakes were going to overheat and fade soon, and the diesel was located in an inaccessible location in the train (water cars in front, and a box car behind).
Not to mention that the current manager always ran with the "mountain cock" cut out, i.e. the driver brakes would not come on on 844, thus they never had to "bail off" the independent brakes. Reportedly, the FRA folks were NOT real pleased with THAT "plan".
What makes no sense to me is when the air was dumped and went into emergency, why didn't the diesel immediately drop the load and go back to idle? The diesel was still pushing after the train was in emergency. Even if everyone 'forgot' about the MU box was still in run, the emergency brake application would have over ridden that. Electrical malfunction was the cause, not human error.
Chuck Sartor posted:What makes no sense to me is when the air was dumped and went into emergency, why didn't the diesel immediately drop the load and go back to idle? The diesel was still pushing after the train was in emergency. Even if everyone 'forgot' about the MU box was still in run, the emergency brake application would have over ridden that.
There was no PC function built into the Diesel MU Control box, as the designers made the assumption that the operator knew what the he)) he was doing. Besides, simply dropping the Generator Field button, would have unloaded the MU'ed diesel units.
Electrical malfunction was the cause, not human error.
Nope! You have no idea what you are talking about!
So the whole train would brake in emergency, the diesel would have it's brakes applied and still pushing? I know you can't control the diesels' brakes from the steamer control stand, so you are telling me there was no over-ride safety that would throttle the diesel down unless it was done manually? So they forgot about the field switch too?
Chuck Sartor posted:So the whole train would brake in emergency, the diesel would have it's brakes applied and still pushing?
Yes, that is EXACTLY what happened! There is even video to prove it.
I know you can't control the diesels' brakes from the steamer control stand,
That is wrong, as the independent air is also MU'ed to the trailing MU'ed diesel units! Again, you don't know what you are talking about.
so you are telling me there was no over-ride safety that would throttle the diesel down unless it was done manually?
Correct! However, the NKP 765 group have since modified their EMD supplied Diesel MU Control Box with PC protection, at the request of the Norfolk Southern Mechanical Dept..
This thread has gotten way off the title of this topic......!
Thanks to Hot Water we can see the absurdity of the current manager of the UP Steam program, how sad.I feel happy that I had the oppurtinity to ride behing 3985 and 844 while they were running,we may never get the Chance again.
Mike
mikey posted:Thanks to Hot Water we can see the absurdity of the current manager of the UP Steam program, how sad.I feel happy that I had the oppurtinity to ride behing 3985 and 844 while they were running,we may never get the Chance again.
Mike
The only "absurdity" here is that one man's personal vendetta continues to be allowed to be posted to this day!
Mike,
I have confidence that if the UP wants to run 3985 & 844 again, they will. What you really need to worry about is the UP hierarchy being invaded by the kind of people that don't like steam.
I am sitting back waiting to see if there is enough meat on a crow for more than one person to eat.
OGR CEO-PUBLISHER posted:This thread has gotten way off the title of this topic......!
Yeah guys, let’s try to get back on track. I just want to hear about the Big Boy, not some excursion from 2011.
Big Jim posted:mikey posted:Thanks to Hot Water we can see the absurdity of the current manager of the UP Steam program, how sad.I feel happy that I had the oppurtinity to ride behing 3985 and 844 while they were running,we may never get the Chance again.
Mike
The only "absurdity" here is that one man's personal vendetta continues to be allowed to be posted to this day!
Mike,
I have confidence that if the UP wants to run 3985 & 844 again, they will. What you really need to worry about is the UP hierarchy being invaded by the kind of people that don't like steam.
I am sitting back waiting to see if there is enough meat on a crow for more than one person to eat.
The Steam program has got to show a real payoff. It has got to show a relivence. UP management is no longer going to allow money to be flushed down a steam restoration toilet. Back in the Steve Lee era it did totally justify its existence as a PR tool. It stopped doing that right after the management change. It went from being a functioning viable steam program to a invisible steam shop. That is what is going to kill the UP steam Program in the end. I personally already think its to late. The lack of presence has already killed it.
>>The fear was that the brakes were going to overheat and fade soon, and the diesel was located in an inaccessible location in the train (water cars in front, and a box car behind).<<
Put in a call to Hollywood for their best stunt man! "Roof walk? I don't need no stinkin' roof walk!"
jethat posted:Big Jim posted:mikey posted:Thanks to Hot Water we can see the absurdity of the current manager of the UP Steam program, how sad.I feel happy that I had the oppurtinity to ride behing 3985 and 844 while they were running,we may never get the Chance again.
Mike
The only "absurdity" here is that one man's personal vendetta continues to be allowed to be posted to this day!
Mike,
I have confidence that if the UP wants to run 3985 & 844 again, they will. What you really need to worry about is the UP hierarchy being invaded by the kind of people that don't like steam.
I am sitting back waiting to see if there is enough meat on a crow for more than one person to eat.
The Steam program has got to show a real payoff. It has got to show a relivence. UP management is no longer going to allow money to be flushed down a steam restoration toilet. Back in the Steve Lee era it did totally justify its existence as a PR tool. It stopped doing that right after the management change. It went from being a functioning viable steam program to a invisible steam shop. That is what is going to kill the UP steam Program in the end. I personally already think its to late. The lack of presence has already killed it.
Well have fun sitting at home! 
THE MAN HIMSELF
Source: Official Union Pacific Steam Club • Cheyenne, Wyoming • Photo by: Cliff Simmons • Posted February 24, 2019 • No copyright infringement.
New photos from the The Official Union Pacific Steam Sleem Club coming this week.
Gary: Rail-fan
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Steam Tour Schedule Released Delayed
The Union Pacific Steam Shop planned to release the Big Boy No. 4014 and Living Legend No. 844 tour schedules earlier this month. However, details concerning the route and schedule are still being worked out. Once the schedule is finalized, UP Steam Club members will be the first to receive this information.
Not sure if this is good news or bad news for rail-fans but we have to be flexible.
Gary: Rail-fan
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Thanks for the update Gary
Ray
I was planning my summer vacation schedules around this event. Given the lack of any details and now another delay in providing a "schedule of events", I said "screw it" and booked a trip to Poland to drive (run) and fire REAL, REVENUE, HIGH SPEED Mainline STEAM commuter train service. You read that right, you can do it also!
SJC posted:I was planning my summer vacation schedules around this event. Given the lack of any details and now another delay in providing a "schedule of events", I said "screw it" and booked a trip to Poland to drive (run) and fire REAL, REVENUE, HIGH SPEED Mainline STEAM commuter train service. You read that right, you can do it also!
You made an EXCELLENT choice, in my opinion!
