Update on Kohs Big Boy

Sorry to hear this about several people losing their deposits. A friend has put a deposit down on the N&W Class before  a deposit was requested.  He may never see the model for years to come if not at all.

Stephen

unbelievable .  Looks like it as been 17 years in the making.

4/3/02 - This project has a new position in our schedule. A further update will be posted in the next few days.

Bob

Bob Harris posted:

unbelievable .

Bob

You're not wrong!

n.

wow... it does seem like about a decade ago that i got their initial sales pitch literature.  have to see if i saved it... may be a collector's item. 

Taking reservation on a project started 4/3/02 and last update 6/1/19 and still not a sample model of the BB with no idea when finished models will be ready for shipment or even started. Odd that refunds are not being returned on a 17 ongoing  year project with no end in sight.

Who says "O" scalers  don't have patience. Meanwhile have some future ocean site property for sale in Arizona.

Time for a lawsuit. My question is why would anybody ever deal with Kohs now or in the future? 

Dave

david1 posted:

Time for a lawsuit. My question is why would anybody ever deal with Kohs now or in the future? 

Dave

Very good question. he is doing this as in postal fraud and federal issues across  interstate lines. There are ways to get your refund back.

I would guest if a deposit was made by Credit Card the card company could take recourse for you.  If one got a lawyer what type of lawyer would you need?  Sad this project is turning out this way.  I was looking forward to future projects.  Maybe George diSanti has some advise since he made everyone aware of the what is going on.

Stephen

nw2124 posted:

I would guest if a deposit was made by Credit Card the card company could take recourse for you.  If one got a lawyer what type of lawyer would you need?  Sad this project is turning out this way.  I was looking forward to future projects.  Maybe George diSanti has some advise since he made everyone aware of the what is going on.

Stephen

ttis is noting new with him been going on for years, people just like to throw money away. Always looking for another fish to scam . ask him about the flat cars and cabooses.

Bob

Before you fine folks start to bash someone, maybe you should look into things a bit.

Copied from the Big Boy order form on the Kohs website:

Union Pacific 4884 class 'Big Boy' Order Form Before ordering please confirm availability with us directly. The price for all versions is $6,000USD (plus shipping), a $3,000USD nonrefundable deposit is required at the time of ordering to secure your reservation, this now includes a $1,500USD incremental payment previously specified at the outset of this project. The balance including shipping will be due prior to delivery.

This is copied from the project page and mentions the beginning of the reservation process:

10/28/14 - Good news........the production schedule for the remainder of this year and 2015 has been set........long story short, the reservation process for the Big Boy can now begin!

So Mr. Kohs has not had anyone's deposit for 7 years.

So sadly Mr. diSanti's friend has no case, and if he was really worried about sending his son to college he shouldn't have been blowing money on brass models.

Simon

Its only been a little under 5 years and really no projected delivery date and with the extended time frame I would doubt the 6k is a guaranteed final price. For most of the buyers at this level of investment 3k is not a big deal for most of us the term "non refundable should be a "red flag" like the market states " past performance is no guarantee for future investments" just saying.

.......and Key lists a Big Boy project on their website !  Maybe George is working in a saturated Big Boy market !?      So, hold the Big Boys, and do a Rock Island 4-8-4 !!!!

mark s posted:

.......and Key lists a Big Boy project on their website !  Maybe George is working in a saturated Big Boy market !?      So, hold the Big Boys, and do a Rock Island 4-8-4 !!!!

I don't have figures to back up the accuracy, but I have read or heard at various sites on the web, that the 2 most imported locomotives are the Big Boy and Cab Forward. Whether these sources are referring to O scale, HO scale or all scales combined I'm not certain.

Apparently there is a faction of devotees with deep pockets, searching for the ultimate model, that support production of these models, that proven by the fact that they (importers) keep having them built.

Mark, You'll have to lure away some of those BB buyers, and note: I am NOT one of them.

Simon

Actually, Simon a product has to be delivered in a reasonable time frame or a refund is required by law to be returned. Second, some people who have reserved a BB did not cancel their reserved version but was cancelled be Kohs himself without informing them. Law I believe is that a deposit has to be returned in 30 Days if the company does not produce the item ordered or is not produced in a reasonable amount of time unless that law has changed.

Second - Key is not doing the BB as he can not find a builder to do it. Maybe has to do with rumors that he did not take possession of the full run of Cab Forwards? Maybe someone has more information on what has happened. This is what I am hearing from a close friend in Texas.

George diSanti

Where the Tar Heels rule!

I believe Key imported 75 cab forwards and there were a number of buyers who bought more than one of the available variants so for all practical purposes the market at that price range was about 50 +/- buyers. With the real BB up and running that market could increase even with higher pricing in the future, Division Point is over 4k for newest HO articulateds, based on the response to the Cab Forwards Key would be my choice for the ultimate Big Boy [not that I am interested in that kind of investment] just saying.

Its interesting to visit the Kohs website and read the posted updates on the BB project.

I can understand why folks, with the discretionary funds, pre-order Kohs items.  As they are built to order, and in relatively small quantities, they are very hard to find on the secondary market. 

To some degree, this is also true of 3rd Rail/Sunset as well.  Interestingly though, they don't require any down payments, although I realize their offerings are priced at about half or Kohs items, so I understand they are carrying less debt on a project than Kohs.

Jim

Jim: I think you should take a look a the auction site to see all the 3rd rail locomotives for sale. There are more 3rd rail that any other company and then some. Yes there are some scorce items, but otherwise tons of it for sale!! 

Hibar: The Kohs would be a better buy on the BB. The Key cab forward was an inferior model even to the Kohs Challenger. The Key model was over price for the quality delivered. The key model didn't even have punched rivets, as Kohs models. Keys says his model was sold out, yet he keeps bringing cab forwards to the shows. (3 the last show). Lately Key has not mention the BB due to lack of builder per Gorge diSanti. He can't get enough orders for the F2 to FL9s, SD40-2, or even the GP38, GP38AC, GP38-2, GP40, and GP40-2s which is now put on the side bar.  The Key situation looks bleak to say the least.

Gosh, I saw the Kohs UP Challenger at the Chicago March O Scale Meet a couple of years ago, and I thought it was spectacular. Had the heft of the prototype and a myriad of intimate details.

What perhaps we are witnessing is the withering of the O Scale brass market - - - not enough buyers to support highly detailed, expensive models.

mark s posted:

What perhaps we are witnessing is the withering of the O Scale brass market - - - not enough buyers to support highly detailed, expensive models.

Maybe......if it's a repeat of a repeat of a repeat.....  Models of stuff that's not been done before or for a very long time have fared well - Sunset's N&W 4-8-0's come to mind.  Maybe the real market is more in that direction? 

I would agree, MWB. I have no interest in a model of a Big Boy, but interest in a batch of mid-sized and small steam locomotives. But given the aging-out of the interested buying population, the weakening of many folks economic condition, etc., I am not optimistic.

mark s posted:

What perhaps we are witnessing is the withering of the O Scale brass market - - - not enough buyers to support highly detailed, expensive models.

No, what you are witnessing is peoples patience boiling over. 

MWB: I agree the Sunset N&W M 4-8-0's was spectacular, I bought 4 of them. Yet that model according to Scott would not have been made if it wasn't for the Strasburg offering.

George diSanti posted:

Actually, Simon a product has to be delivered in a reasonable time frame or a refund is required by law to be returned. Second, some people who have reserved a BB did not cancel their reserved version but was cancelled be Kohs himself without informing them. Law I believe is that a deposit has to be returned in 30 Days if the company does not produce the item ordered or is not produced in a reasonable amount of time unless that law has changed.

Second - Key is not doing the BB as he can not find a builder to do it. Maybe has to do with rumors that he did not take possession of the full run of Cab Forwards? Maybe someone has more information on what has happened. This is what I am hearing from a close friend in Texas.

George diSanti

Where the Tar Heels rule!

Hello George,

I'm not an expert, or even a novice regarding contract law, but i"m guessing that they who fill out the Kohs reservation are signing a contract for GK to deliver 1 of 5 variations of the Big Boy, henceforth to be recognized as BB by members of the forum! Sorry, had to inject a little levity!

If reasonable applies (I do not know the law, but I would think it might not apply if a delivery time is not stipulated.) and if the production period is NOT stipulated, and reasonable does apply, then WHAT is the definition of reasonable?

As for GK canceling reservations, I don't think it would be prudent to comment without having the FACTS. Seems strange that GK would be canceling reservations on an project he is trying to bring in. Did he get a chest full of gold from the Sultan of Trainsylvania, thereby eliminating the need for all his prior reservations? Did the folks who were canceled miss a mandatory payment? Hard to comment without knowing all the facts!

The only thing I know about Key is that the factory they used in Korea burned to the ground

Simon

mark s posted:

What perhaps we are witnessing is the withering of the O Scale brass market - - - not enough buyers to support highly detailed, expensive models.

The problem isn't a lack of buyers.   It's a lack of builders.  

As the far east continues to develop the number of people (or factories) who can build Kohs and Key quality models continues to dwindle. 

mark s posted:

I would agree, MWB. I have no interest in a model of a Big Boy, but interest in a batch of mid-sized and small steam locomotives. But given the aging-out of the interested buying population, the weakening of many folks economic condition, etc., I am not optimistic.

Hello Mark,

I feel your pain. The smaller to mid-size engines have always taken a back seat to the BIG stuff....and it seems it hasn't changed.

Simon

Lots of half truths and assumptions floating around here. 

All the CF's sold, including 3 extras (after 75) that were assembled from spare parts. These a last 3 models were sold as DC only as the DCC systems were consumed in the 1st 75 models. I don't attend shows so maybe the 3 someone saw were Dave's personal models. 

I bought a KEY CF and a KOH's Challenger and both are remarkable models. The KEY was every bit as nice in detail and came with some nice electronic upgrades that weren't available when the Challenger was built, plus it had other items modeled that had never been done on a production model.  It remains to be seen how the KOH's BB will turn out. 

I haven't ordered anything from KOH's since the Challenger, as his business model just doesn't suit me..........I will never tie up that amount of money again and hope for a delivery.  Losing a $300 deposit (KEY) for any reason is one thing....the possibility of losing thousands, makes no sense to me. To me, it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when. Someone will be left holding the proverbial bag IMHO. And now, hearing deposits being forfeited without the buyers knowledge, is just incredible. 

The KEY factory burned down a few years ago, if you will remember, and considering Dave's age I have no idea if he will jump in again or not.  I know the KEY BB project is on hold. 

BH

Isn’t Key’s priority to deliver the CZ? I thought he was looking for a builder 

SANTIAGOP23 posted:

Isn’t Key’s priority to deliver the CZ? I thought he was looking for a builder 

Better ask Dave DeVita that question!

Simon

Santiago: Key on his last trip to Asia said he found a builder for the CZ.

Kohs stated that he would post photos the BB as the builders was unable to ship it to him for the March Chicago O Scale Show. Has anyone seen any photos?

Funny, at the March Meet I was told that it had shipped but UPS had failed to deliver it to the hotel in time.............................................

But they managed to deliver a tender.

https://ogrforum.com/.../march-meet-analysis

n.

Just info, there is a legal term for "reasonable time" when a contract is entered, (the deposit makes it a contract). If all concerned got together  a lawyer to represent those that have put deposits down which indicates there is a contract to deliver in a reasonable time the item contracted to delivered. A lawyer can take to court and also file for loss of interest that the clients would have received and sue for the  anguish caused by the unreasonable time period. The Lawyer may be willing to take as Fee the loss of interest and anguish suit filed. Something similar was and happened in Illinois on smaller sized semi-truck. Deposits were taken, after 5 years still no product, nor even a production start finish date given.  Lawyer won without ever going to court and just filing and forwarding letters addressing his representing each as a client and an agreed amount anguish settlement.

Limey: I was originally told that the BB had not arrived in time for the show. Then later I was told that he told the builder if it was going to delay the pilot model not to ship the model. He then told me he was going to post photos when he got back home. Did anyone go to the meet and greet that Kohs held. He told me it did NOT go that great.

I managed, along with my trusty contemporaries, to resist the temptation of the fine selection of bourbons mentioned and hearing the great man himself pontificate at length. Vacation time is precious and I'm more of a single malt man.  

n.

nw2124 posted:

MWB: I agree the Sunset N&W M 4-8-0's was spectacular, I bought 4 of them. Yet that model according to Scott would not have been made if it wasn't for the Strasburg offering.

 

I'd file that under smart business as I'm pretty sure those all sold out fast, and you even got your 4.  Hard to find one for sale now, too.  Maybe something to learn.

nw2124 posted:

Limey: I was originally told that the BB had not arrived in time for the show. Then later I was told that he told the builder if it was going to delay the pilot model not to ship the model. He then told me he was going to post photos when he got back home. Did anyone go to the meet and greet that Kohs held. He told me it did NOT go that great.

 

Well I haven't seen any photos of the finished model and now three and a half months have elapsed since the March Meet: I think we can kohs goodbye to any hope of seeing them this year.  

n.

I hate to see Kohs go by the wayside.  I guess I will count on someone else to do the rest of Kohs remaining list of models. Looks like those who have put their second deposit down are now out a lot more money as there is no proof of model in all these years. So much for the 3D way of doing things faster.  Have you lost any money?

Kohs keeps saying on his website that he has never failed to deliver a project. Well, there's a first time for everything. In the model manufacturing business, you can not rest on your laurels, because all that they show is that you have produced and delivered models in the past. It does not translate in any way that you will continue to do so. The one thing that he HAS failed to deliver is the truth.

George diSanti

Where the Tarheels rule!

hibar posted:

Its only been a little under 5 years and really no projected delivery date and with the extended time frame I would doubt the 6k is a guaranteed final price. For most of the buyers at this level of investment 3k is not a big deal for most of us the term "non refundable should be a "red flag" like the market states " past performance is no guarantee for future investments" just saying.

Yea that would be enough for me to back away.