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In 1976 my wife gave me a Lionel 6-1587 B&O Capitol Limited Passenger Train set for Christmas. This set has a Lionel 8304 Steam Locomotive 4-4-2 with a 2 position Reversing Unit (and smoke) with an 8040-100 “Double Field” motor.

The associated Tender 8142T-8 provides “Sounds of Steam.”

This entry level set is not “top of the line,” but the Tender and Passenger cars are marked for B&O and my father was a conductor on “The Diplomat” (comparable to the Capitol Limited). Hence, my affinity for this Locomotive and Passenger cars.

The Passenger cars are 9500 series “Baby Madison” cars. The Tender and Passenger Cars use dummy non-operating couplers.

Although I have modern era Lionel locomotives using Command Control, my goal is to upgrade this system but retain Conventional Control.

  • install a 3-position e-unit – preferably an electronic version.
  • implement a whistle controlled via my KW Transformer.
  • Replace the trucks on the Tender and Cars with operating couplers.

Status of the Locomotive Motor and E-Unit

The mechanical 2 position E-Unit (Lionel Part 101-1) has failed, and as noted above my plan is to replace it with a 3 position E-Unit. (I never liked the absence of a “neutral” position.)

To facilitate this, I have modified the motor, as depicted in Greenberg’s Operating & Repair Manual – Lionel Fundimensions Trains: 1970 – 1978 page 31. (Attachment 1). This Schematic depicts converting a “Double Field” to a “Single Field” which abandons or eliminates from the circuit, one of the field windings.

I followed this modification and as verification of success, I tested forward-reverse operation of the motor via alligator clips, jumpers, and my KW transformer.

(I carefully retained leads to the abandoned field wiring so I can “back out” of this modification.)

The attached schematic (Attachment 1) indicates a suitable 3 position E-unit replacement is Lionel 100-11. Used versions of this unit are available on e-bay. However, I prefer today’s electronic versions.

My on-line search for a replacement electronic unit has led me to Dallee’s 4-amp #400 Unit. However, using the physical dimensions given, I concluded I do not have the required physical space in the locomotive to accommodate the #400 Unit. Therefore, I will need to locate it in the tender which already has the “Sounds of Steam” components.

To accommodate this configuration in the Tender, I will need, in addition to the Dallee #400, a right-angle connector (Dallee #614). Plus a 6-pin male-female connector to separate/disconnect the engine from the Tender. (I have not yet found this item.)

I have not located a replacement for the “Sound of Steam.” My desire is to implement a whistle controlled via my KW transformer versus a separate device.

As a side note, I have already started upgrading the lighting in the Baby Madison cars to LED strips using GRJ’s 20110 Lighting Regulators with positive results.

Summary:

I need input, positive or negative and suggestions on the following items:

Conversion of the motor to accommodate a 3 position E-Unit and finding an electronic replacement.

Location of the replacement E-Unit, especially in the Tender. I have noted some of the issues above (size – fit – placement and connectors to disconnect the Tender/Engine. (I have viewed the offerings of ERR by 3rd Rail but since many items have become unavailable due to component obsolescence, I do not view this as viable.)

Previous Posts have indicated the Sounds of Steam board has limited life – capacitor failure. Therefore, this is a candidate to upgrade with whistle sounds if something is available that operates via the KW Transformer. Comments are appreciated.

Thanks

Attachments

Images (1)
  • 2024-10-01 Greenbreg's Repair Manual 1970-1978 Page 31 Section converting Double Field Motor to Single Field to accommodate a 3 position E-Unit: Attachment 1 Conversion Double Field to Single Field Motor Conversion
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I've pondered this type of conversion myself.  You would be correct to use only one of the two field windings.  The Dallee 400 is solid, but as you concluded, it's too big to fit in the loco.

A second option is to search popular auction sites for the out-of-production QSI ACRU-E, which has a square-ish form factor, and was designed to fit in a steam loco, in place of a 3-position mechanical E-unit.  There's a hitch: your stock 2-position E-unit has no plunger, so it's SMALLER than a 3-position model.  Even with the ACRU-E, it might be necessary to cut away the rounded part at the rear of the roller pickup bracket to make it fit.  [The only MPC-era four-wheel loco sold with a 3-position E-unit was the 8506 switcher.  To my eyes, it looks as if the plastic roller frame on these was cut at the Lionel factory.  If you own one of these switchers, or can find an example for close study, you'll see what I mean.]

Re: Sound of Steam, it's true that the capacitors may dry out but they can be replaced.  Early versions of this board used only discrete solid-state components (no chips), so the whole board is repairable.  Personally I like the Sound of Steam so I would be inclined to retain it.  If you want to add Whistle, the easiest way to do so would be to replace the whole board in your tender with a combined Sound of Steam / Whistle board sourced from an 8204, 8206, or 8305 loco tender.  You'll also have to add a roller pickup to one tender truck.  [NOTE: your KW may NOT reliably trigger the early MPC whistle, as these locos came with their own (and unfortunately failure-prone) whistle button that probably has a different DC offset. ]

I don't want to discourage you, but my parting thought is "temper your expectations."  I've owned a handful of these MPC-era 4-4-2s.  Only one is a decent runner.  They seem prone to overheat, slow down, and stall, refusing to budge until after they cool down.  Some folks on this Forum suggested replacing the brush springs or increasing the spring tension.  Before receiving that advice, I was planning to swap the MPC-era driving wheels with their side rod bosses onto a postwar metal "Scout" motor (part number 250-100.)  The 250 motors came from the factory with a (mechanical) 3-position E-unit.  It's a bolt-in replacement to the 8304 with all of the same mounting points.  IMO the postwar motor runs better and looks more realistic with its black steel side frames, even if it's less powerful.

Good luck whatever you decide.  Please post back and share some photos of your progress!

Last edited by Ted S

Thanks, Ted, for sharing your valuable experience, comments, and suggestions. Especially related to the MPC-era 4-4-2 motors (i.e., they are prone to overheat, slow down, and stall). If I am to invest in this project, swapping to a post war 250-100 motor is a valuable suggestion.

Although I ruled out ERR and Command Control in this Post, I have since revisited the ERR website and found I can retain Sound of Steam, Chuff, and Whistle with ERR components plus motor control in a small footprint (e.g., Tender).

(I have already successfully converted one MPC era Diesel to Command Control using ERR components when ERR was still part of Lionel.)

As a side note, regarding the KW transformer and DC offset, you may be interested in my recent Post on this topic - Lionel KW Transformer Service Manual Errors/Corrections using the link below.

https://ogrforum.com/topic/lio...l-errors-corrections

Yes, an ERR AC Commander with RailSounds would be the "nuclear option!"  And there's no issue with the antenna because the command signal easily penetrates the plastic tender shell.

Disclaimer: I've not done a 250-100 motor swap on a 4-4-2 (although I have no doubt that it's possible.)  I have done it on an MPC-era 8042, which is a 2-4-2.  The key difference is that  the "Columbia" or Scout-type locos typically had only one main rod to the rear driver.  I re-used the original main rod and hex screw from the 250, the rod mates right up to the MPC-era crosshead.  If you want to keep the nice tandem rods from your 8304, you'll have to pull the MPC driving wheels, and re-press them onto the axles of the postwar motor.  Pulling and pressing wheels is an advanced repair best left to experienced repair persons with special tools.  Quartering isn't too critical because the large spur gear in the middle drives both wheels.  However, it's easy to bend an axle or press the wheels on crooked, which will make the loco wobble and hop.

The last attempt I made at a transplant before I tore down my layout, was to start with a 1615 postwar switcher motor.  These have four wheels that are already quartered and tapped for side rods.  However the hex bolts used on the 1615 are a smaller diameter and not directly compatible with the drive rods used on the 8304.  With a longer bolt and a piece of brass tubing or a spacer it might work, but the fit has to be snug because the right-side rod works the smoke piston and contacts for the Sound of Steam.

Every time a new catalog comes out, I hope Lionel will reissue something like a postwar scout with a high-performance LionChief Plus mechanism that could be used to repower our old classics.  In a recent catalog they brought back the Pennsylvania-type "675", so I guess there's hope!!

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