Upgrading Williams Alco's to TMCC?

You will need to see first if you can afford to do the upgrade to TMCC.

I think that 'gunrunnerjohn' can tell you more then I can about it and what to use if you do.

I think he or somebody mentioned using Electric Railroad company(ERC) circuit boards.

Also do your Williams engines have motors with flywheels? If not they might be harder to upgrade.

For what it's worth I have never upgraded a Williams to command control.

Lee Fritz

Thanks Lee, let me check.

No problem upgrading Williams.  I have upgraded several to PS-2.  ERR for DC motors would also work fine, if you want TMCC control.  G

Well, I can find the Williams 0-27 Silver Alco's but not the Yellow ones, except for F-7's which might be too large like my F3.

I've done a number of Williams locomotives, both with TMCC from ERR and with PS/2 upgrades for DCS.  All except the vary early Williams stuff has flywheels, but the ERR TMCC doesn't require a flywheel in any case.  If you're doing a PS/2 upgrade, a flywheel is mandatory.

An ERR Cruise Commander and RailSounds Commander will set you back around $180 or so, other than bits and pieces, that's all you should need.  If you want the dummy to have directional lighting and electrocouplers, you'll have to add those.

Thanks GunRunner, I am thinking of maybe of using these to upgrade my vintage Lionel AA  027 UP Alco's.

But...they have that heat warping problem, which make me want to just find an inexpensive new set of them to upgrade.

A diesel upgrade is typically pretty easy, usually very little mechanical stuff to do.  Sometimes steamers get into more work, especially if you're changing the tether, replacing the smoke unit, not to mention the chuff switch, etc.

Chip, you can upgrade your PW Alcos to TMCC but you won't get cruise with the Pulmores.

If you go shopping for Williams FAs make sure they have two motors. The ones made before 2003 or so had only one motor. If they say True Blast II they have two motors with flywheels. The hot setup if you find a pair would be to install the sound in the dummy A. That would allow a full size Fatboy for some decent sound.

Pete

Cost wise, unless you already have the Williams engines and you're somewhat attached to them, it usually makes more sense economically to buy 'previously owned' PS2 or TMCC equipment. These will have command, sound, and (with PS2) cruise for $150 - $200.

Adding command AND sound to a Williams piece will generally be at just under, or more likely in excess of $200 not including the engine!

It is just that no one has made a PS2 or TMCC PW style UP Alco in yellow.

Silver Yes, but in yellow, only that $1000+ set.

As you have observed, there are more reasons than simply costs to upgrade to command.  If you really something specific in command, then the cost may be secondary to the issue.

Why can't the AC COMMANDER KIT be used to upgrade a Lionel Alco AA set with Pullmor's even though they dont have cruise Control, i.e. FlyWheels?

The AC Commander kit is for locomotives with AC Motors, also known as Pullmor Motors (motors with visible brushes).  This upgrade provides Command and Conventional Mode operation.  Additional outputs are supplied for front light, rear light, and electro-couplers.  Output multipurpose output for smoke, cab light, or strobe light, selected by "feature code" provided.

They can - who said they couldn't be? It's just that AC motors cannot be upgraded to cruise control. Cost? $69.95  for the AC Commander, $84.95 for RailSounds, $10 each for couplers (2 required - optional). I just finished one for a customer (without couplers); the total bill was $165 (parts & labor).

jackson

Ah maybe that was it.

ok, so for my Williams UP Alco AA all I need are the following?

 DC COMMANDER KIT
The DC Commander kit is for locomotives with DC "Can" Motors, these motors are sealed and appear like a silver can.  This upgrade provides Command and Conventional Mode operation.  Additional outputs are supplied for front light, rear light, and electro-couplers.  Output multipurpose output for smoke, cab light, or strobe light, selected by "feature code" provided.

CRUISE COMMANDER KIT
The Cruise Commander kit is for locomotives with DC "Can" Motors, these motors are sealed and appear like a silver can.  This upgrade provides Cruise capability in Command and Conventional Mode operation.  Additional outputs are supplied for front light, rear light, and electro-couplers.  Output multipurpose output for smoke, cab light, or strobe light, selected by "feature code" provided.

Overview:
The latest version of the RailSounds Commander is the smallest, most full featured, highest performance RailSounds upgrade available for your locomotives.  This innovative technology utilizes Lionel RailSounds technology with integrated power supply, that supports command and conventional mode with battery backup.  The RailSounds Commander operates standalone, or in conjunction with the full product line of Electric Railroad’s TMCC upgrades. The small size is unparalleled in the marketplace, so just about every locomotive can have a high performance sound system! 

The RailSounds Commander product is complete kit, including a high performance speaker, speaker baffle, mounting supplies, comprehensive installation manual, and connection cables for conventional and command operation.

Cool Features: 
    Conventional and Command mode operation
    Command mode Volume Control
    On-board Volume Control for conventional operation
    Expanded variety of sound sets
    Diesel: Alco PA/PB, Alco 420, F3/F7, E8/9, GP7/9, Dash 9, FM, SD
    Steam: Small, Medium, Large, Articulated, Steam w/ Air Horn
    Electric: GG1, EP5
    Battery (9v) supports convention mode operation
    Fully compliant with TMCC protocol standards
    Only 1.75" L  x  1.25" W  x  0.50" H

Not quite correct: you would need EITHER the DC Commander or the Cruise Commander but not both. The DC commander gives you TMCC command control with all the features outlined. The Cruise Commander gives you TMCC command control plus cruise control as well.

The railsounds commander will work with either and give you sound.

jackson

jackson is 100% correct, If my memory is correct I think the Cruise Commander goes for about $120. and the installation is not very difficult. You being in O will have more room in which to work, I have done the Cruise in S gauge locos. If you contact boxcar Bill on this forum he does give discount the prices of ERR products for people on the forum.

Ray

Ah thanks glad I asked!

Get the Cruise Commander. The slight additional cost over the DC Commander will soon be forgotten. The pleasure of operating with cruise control will be a joy to you every time you operate the loco.

To each his own regarding the Cruise Commander. While cruise appears to be the majority view here on the Forum and i have done a number of them for customers, personally i prefer to not have it in my own locos as i enjoy the sense of control especially when going up and down grades.

jackson

The big plus for me with cruise is greatly enhanced slow speed operation rather than constant cruising speed.

Also when running on the big club layout the engines are practically immune from voltage variations at the track.

Pete

I have installed the DC commander in a Williams FP45 with added RS and An F7 no sound. Also added DC commanders to K-line, Atlas and Lionel diesels. My layout has a 7 inch difference in levels over a 25 feet of track each way.  I like the sound of trains pulling up hill under a heavy load and the engines running at a higher rpm and then the rpm's lower after approx. half the train is on top of the grade. If I set the up hill speed right I have no problems with the train on the down hill leg of my layout. Layout curves are 072 and larger.

Short video of my Williams FP45 with the new ERR SD sound system and DC commander. The speaker is inside the body pointing up. The sound of the video is not the best, 

Chipset I think you inspired me. I might try upgrading my Williams GG-1.

Pat,

An easy one to do - i've done many for customers. Altho the interior can be a little crowded, the fact that you can use the pans as an antenna makes this job really slick.

jackson

Thanks Jackson

That is my next project too Pat!

Those WBB GG-1s are beautiful and deserve TMCC!

Here's a Williams Scale TMCC upgrade in pictures.  This one was before the new RS5 boards were available from ERR.  The last picture is the schematic of an early motion sensor circuit I built to control Rule-17 and cab lighting.

Thanks for the pictures Gunrunner. That is my GG-1. Looks like a doable project. Seems like an easier project than Proto-2 upgrade. I have a MTH P-2 scale GG1 also and if I go to a P-2 upgrade I can double head them. Not afraid of the conversion being harder. I'm an Electronic Engineer and have experience building Electrical/electronic projects. Just haven't made up my mind yet. 

Truthfully, the PS/2 upgrade isn't all that difficult, I've put them into a variety of things.  I just finished another 2-rail PS/2 upgrade for the C&O Turbine, that is one really LARGE locomotive!   The engine, not counting the tender, is 26" long!

With all of these, I usually spent the most time doing the extra stuff.  With that GG-1, I fabricated a crude cab for front and rear, and also put in all custom lighting.