Formerly [URO – (Unidentified Rolling Object) Aluminum Passenger Cars] Williams Amfleet

It looks like Williams to me. See if WRL is cast into the inside of the truck side frames.

I second what RoyBoy said. The only other possibility would be that it's a Welz car, but I think those were built a bit differently.

I think one distinguishing feature of the Williams Amfleet and Metroliner cars is the extra-large radius on the door windows. Also, the use of a locomotive-type underbody detail.

Roy, thank you for your reply.  I shone a flashlight in from the side between the wheels looking at the vertical metal plate (sheet metal, not a casting) that's sandwiched between the wheels and the outer plastic part of the trucks.  Without disassembling the wheels from the trucks I didn't see any stamping.

But..... as I was doing this, something else caught my eye.  With a low angle light across the molded hub cover (outside the Axles) in miniscule lettering is the word TIMKEN.  An internet search for "Timken Aluminum passenger car" isn't showing anything that looks like these cars.  Most other aluminum cars I've found on the internet have ? (fenders) ?? that extend down below the floor level with cut-outs for the trucks.

Did (does) Timken make just the trucks?

@SteveH posted:

Roy, thank you for your reply.  I shone a flashlight in from the side between the wheels looking at the vertical metal plate (sheet metal, not a casting) that's sandwiched between the wheels and the outer plastic part of the trucks.  Without disassembling the wheels from the trucks I didn't see any stamping.

But..... as I was doing this, something else caught my eye.  With a low angle light across the molded hub cover (outside the Axles) in miniscule lettering is the word TIMKEN.  An internet search for "Timken Aluminum passenger car" isn't showing anything that looks like these cars.  Most other aluminum cars I've found on the internet have ? (fenders) ?? that extend down below the floor level with cut-outs for the trucks.

Did (does) Timken make just the trucks?

Timken doesn't make model railroad stuff, the Timken lettering is modeling how Timken bearings had the lettering over the bearing caps.

I concur on the Wiliams lineage. From Worthpoint...

From Ebay...

I'm glad you asked about this car, it jogged my memory about a set of Williams Metroliners I got back in the day. I actually tried to run them on my last layout but they kept hitting the tunnel portals I was using.

Jerry

@GenesisFan99 posted:

the Timken lettering is modeling how Timken bearings had the lettering over the bearing caps.

That makes sense.  Also you nailed it with Welz.  Searched that, and found quite a few images and listings with Elliot Welz.

Thank you to all who replied with your expertise.  It's much appreciated.

Also a Fitz fan

Jerry, started typing before your reply.  Now I'm confused.

https://www.google.com/search?...imgrc=9GKwnOoe6tBFMM

Williams cars  The under frame detail is the diesel tank from a FM Trainmaster locomotive.

From Binnsroad.co.uk....

Welz cars appear to have a number plate mid center of the body.

https://www.worthpoint.com/inv...NGER&categories=

Jerry

@SteveH posted:

Can anyone help identify this Amtrak Passenger Car. I've looked carefully inside and out with a flashlight and haven't found any identifying information on these cars. No mfg. markings at all. Purchased 4 of these at a swap meet from an individual who also didn't know who made them.

The shell and bottom plate are aluminum, end caps are plastic, truck frames are plastic outside with inboard vertical metal plates just outside the wheels, wheels are metal, and the plastic non-operating couplers are riveted to the trucks. The Amtrak logo, red white and blue stripes appear to be a vinyl adhesive sticker. Each car weighs just under 21 ounces. Dimensions are 14 3/4”L (plus coupler lengths) x 3”W x 3 3/8”H.

It's an early Williams piece.  100% certain

Definitely not a Welz, trucks on a Welz are different than the Williams...

Jerry

Its a Williams Amfleet car.

The diiferences betwern a Williams and a Weltz Amfleet are

Welts has delrin plastic truck block with a crappy middle rail pick-up setup.and ground wire but the truck looks realistic portraying the "inside bearing truck" look.

Weltz end bulkheads are molded yellow plastic and painted silver

Weltz couplers are solid and dont operate

Weltz uses a unique yellow tinted sticker for its windows that gives a realistic 3d effect.

Weltz only had Amtrak Phase2 decor

Williams uses incorrect 1950s passenger trucks

Williams uses FM "fuel tank" for underbody

Williams uses frosted window inserts with sillouettes

Williams has operating couplers and better roller pick ups.

Williams uses Amtrak Phase1 decor.

The other tell on the Welz cars is that proportionally they don't look quite as short due to the reduced diameter on the AmCan profile.  Also, the Welz Cars have a brighter finish than the Williams cars.  Definitely appears like an early Williams one to me. 

Finally my Welz Metroliner cars have blue / green windows.

Great find though.  I always enjoy passenger UROs myself.  I have several scale length cars that I don't think I'll ever figure out who built them originally.

Thank you all for your insights.  I really appreciate you sharing your experience and knowledge about these cars.

Based on your replies, I found a bit more information that confirms these were made by Williams Electric Trains.  If these are the early versions, the link below to the TCA Western, indicates they probably would have been made between 1977 and 1981 to coincide with their first version of the General Electric E60 electric locomotive.

http://www.tcawestern.org/williams.htm

If anyone else is interested in knowing more about Williams electric Trains I also discovered there is a book titled The Story of Williams Electric Trains by John Hubbard.  Maybe some of you already have it. 

1981 Williams Catalog

I do like the education l get on here...had never heard of "Welz", so,  who dey?  Make, offer, anything else?

The one car Williams did not make but might have sold well was an Amfeet car with one end with a Metroliner cab.  Some of the original Metros were converted to unpowered cab cars.

Definitely Williams, I have several of them.

Bill, thank you for posting the 1981 Catalog picture.  It could indicate that by 1981 there may have been additional refinements to previous versions.  The catalog picture shows numbering (maybe lettering) on the sides of the cars (unlike mine).  Also, the pics I took don't show it, but the spacing between my cars seems greater than the ones in the catalog.  Another difference is that all 4 of mine have identical window configurations and there's no end car.  These also have operating couplers like prrhorseshoecurve mentions.  Thanks for helping narrow the time frame.

Does the catalog have a publishing date and/or release date for the 1981 models?

@SteveH posted:

Bill, thank you for posting the 1981 Catalog picture.  It could indicate that by 1981 there may have been additional refinements to previous versions.  The catalog picture shows numbering (maybe lettering) on the sides of the cars (unlike mine).  Also, the pics I took don't show it, but the spacing between my cars seems greater than the ones in the catalog.  Another difference is that all 4 of mine have identical window configurations and there's no end car.  These also have operating couplers like prrhorseshoecurve mentions.  Thanks for helping narrow the time frame.

Does the catalog have a publishing date and/or release date for the 1981 models?

Can you post a picture of the top of your car?

Here are a couple more pics showing the whole roof as well as the car spacing at 1 5/8"

This is definitely a Williams car.  They were developed using the blanks from the Metro Liner.  I have posted a picture of a Metro Liner with the same window spacing  that is on your Amfleet car.  The first run of the Amfleet car was 1981 (from the Hubbard Book)  However, with Williams accuracy is never a given.  The first run of the Metro Liner set used Lionel trucks from over produced and unsold diesels.  The first run of the Amfleet set used the same diesel trucks which produced a good deal of friction.  Once Williams developed his own trucks they were used.  However, the Williams trucks were not that great.  It wasn't until sometime around 1988 that Williams began buying trucks from Korea with needle point axles and fast angle wheels  that they operated well.

Unless your shell has the three distinctive plastic plugs in the roof, it is a later version of the shell.  The early Amfleet shells, because they were the Metro Liner shells that had to mount the pantograph, had three mounting holes.

Without going thru all the catalogs to find your car my guess would be that because it has the Williams truck, it is prior to 1988.

Bill,  Thank you for the research, follow-up and pictures of a beautiful collection of passenger trains.

The trucks on mine are not great (understatement). The axles rotate as one might expect.  But, the wheels also rotate on the axles between crimps and have enough lateral displacement to rub the inside the of the trucks (intermittent friction).  There is a large tolerance in the wheel to axle fitment with a range of 2 to 4 degrees deviation from perpendicular rotation.  I don't think these have any bearings in the wheels or axles.

Here is a better pic of this arrangement:

@SteveH posted:

Bill,  Thank you for the research, follow-up and pictures of a beautiful collection of passenger trains.

The trucks on mine are not great (understatement). The axles rotate as one might expect.  But, the wheels also rotate on the axles between crimps and have enough lateral displacement to rub the inside the of the trucks (intermittent friction).  There is a large tolerance in the wheel to axle fitment with a range of 2 to 4 degrees deviation from perpendicular rotation.  I don't think these have any bearings in the wheels or axles.

Here is a better pic of this arrangement:

These trucks were developed to go with the Williams Madison cars.  They are actually second generation. ( Second generation means that they were cheaper to produce than the Lionel reproductions that were the first ones in the car kits)  Like Lionel postwar trucks, there is a lot of friction with all the metal to metal pieces.  The plastic bracket they developed to hold the axles might have helped a little but i doubt it.

@Bill DeBrooke posted:

These trucks were developed to go with the Williams Madison cars.  They are actually second generation. ( Second generation means that they were cheaper to produce than the Lionel reproductions that were the first ones in the car kits)  Like Lionel postwar trucks, there is a lot of friction with all the metal to metal pieces.  The plastic bracket they developed to hold the axles might have helped a little but i doubt it.

So, based on these likely being 2nd generation trucks and assuming they are original to my cars, would this mean they were produced before 1988?

Do you also happen to know what year Williams started making the 2nd gen. trucks for these cars?

Thank you again to all of you who replied, helping identify these Williams Amfleet passenger cars.

The first generation truck was developed in 1975 and appeared in the 'Repli-Kits' of the Madison cars when they were released, in late 1975 or 1976.  The second generation truck appeared in 1978 (or a little earlier).  It had less parts and was easier to assemble.

The problem with Williams production is the lack of records that are available, if they exist at all.  The picture of the Amtrak FM and Amfleet car that I posted earlier is like the car you have.  That was the 1981 catalog.  The difference between your car and the car in the picture is the truck.  The first trucks on the Amfleet cars were Lionel.

The Metro Liner was going to use the trucks off the Lionel Coke diesel.  Apparently the Coke set did not sell as well as expected resulting in large overstocks.  Dealers were willing to break up the set and sell the Diesels(or parts) to Williams on the cheap.  With just the one powered truck on the Metro Liner it did not operate properly therefore they used two powered trucks.  This left two unpowered trucks for each Metro Liner.  Williams being the ever inventive guy put the unpowered Lionel trucks on the Amfleet cars.  However, because of the construction of this truck there was a lot of friction.  When they ran out of the Lionel trucks they used their own truck.  Your car was probably made after they ran out of Lionel trucks.  1981 forward.  Not sure how many sets got made.  I think I read that there were under 300 Metro Liner sets made.

I have posted picture of first and second generation Williams truck.  Ignore the fact that the guy assembled the first one backwards putting the pickup outside the truck.  The Amfleet car picture is over exposed so you can see the Lionel diesel truck.

I think this is all I think I know or it may be more than I know.

One more thing.  If you look carefully at the top of the Amfleet car you can see the little plastic plug.  They plug the holes that were used to mount the pantograph.  The later cars, the ones that were not left over Metro Liner cars because of having to put two motors in them, did not have these holes or plugs.