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@GG1 4877 posted:

I was involved with a project that converted trash to syngas to fire a 35 MW producing turbine.  It was very low emission and had full carbon capture.  The business model was to sell the carbon as well as any recyclable material.  For each proposed location the waste stream coming to the plant was fully analyzed to see what the by-products could be and what they could be used for.  In one location the by-product was synthetic diesel fuel.  It was very forward thinking and very a very market based approach.

I agree that nuclear can be a good source of sustainable energy as well and with the will, I fully believe the waste stream issue can be solved.  The largest and most modern nuclear power plant in the nation is 50 miles west of Phoenix and generates 3.3 GW of power.  It serves large portions of San Diego, Las Angeles, Los Vegas, Phoenix, and Tucson.  On top of that the water source is effluent from treated sewerage.  That kind of power output cannot be ignored.  In spite of my earlier cynical comment, I am optimistic that there could be a meeting of the minds between the big thinkers and the big funders.  The status quo is not sustainable in the long term so something has to change.

I think Wabtec has some interesting ideas that still need to be refined and experimented upon, but after acquiring the GE line of locomotives they have a good basis to innovate.  Rather than dismiss it out of hand, give it a chance.

I also know that we are not going to solve the worlds problems on a toy train forum, but we can at least dream about a better future in lieu of the "we can't" mentality?

I still think it kind of interesting that the in the current form, the most efficient form of motive power is electricity but only when you have your own fossil fuel powered generating station onboard the locomotive.

Perhaps some day we'll have the "fuel man" will come every so often and exchange out a box of spent nuclear fuel "core"  for a new one to power our homes.

Last edited by Rule292
@Rule292 posted:

I still think it kind of interesting that the in the current form, the most efficient form of motive power is electricity but only when you have your own fossil fuel powered generating station onboard the locomotive.

Perhaps some day we'll have the "fuel man" will come every so often and exchange out a box of spent nuclear fuel "core"  for a new one to power our homes.

Actually a diesel electric locomotive is not the most efficient, not if you look from fuel to output thermodynamically ( and I will admit upfront this is very much splitting hairs, just to highlight something). A diesel engine in terms of efficiency is about 7 to 8% input to output, an electric motor is about 90 to 95%, so end to end you are talking let's say 7%. If you had a power network running off solar using today's technology, solar cells are up to 35%, and even factoring in losses due to transmission line losses and then the electric motor loss, you would still be much higher. Likewise nuclear and hydro and wind are much higher efficiency wise if you do a similar calculation.

The kicker of course is that most power production on a national scale is Nat gas and coal running turbines and not having a national grid, lot of higher efficiency power production is localized, so yes that is true.

One of the potentials of fusion power (like Mr.Fusion *lol*) is theoretically a byproduct of fusion power from an article I read long ago, would be really long lived batteries ( really more like fuel cells) using long lived ions generated by the fusion reaction. Not a physicist and it could just be a pipe dream, but in theory you wouldnt need power transmission, those ionic de ices could power heavy duty vehicles like trains.

I think to circle back to the original question, why is the US rail network not Electrified.  It’s a combination of tax policy, promoting use of fossils fuels. A lack of a fully nationalized rail network, like what is present in Europe. The overall size of the US and the lack of any political will to create a nationalized system. FOR BETTER OR WORSE.

DO NOT YELL AT ME FOR SAYIGN THIS.

I AM NOT SAYING THAT WHAT WE HAVE IS BAD

I AM NOT SAYING THAT OTHER THINGS ARE BETTER.

I am saying why it is the way it is.

We do not have a nationalized system that can force a change of that scale.  We will not make any such change until the hand is forced, by either political will… but more likely economic forces.

Yes there are hundreds of years worth of coal and other hydrocarbon’s but the cost of getting them, labor and the ease of getting to them is only getting harder. Why is fracking so cheap, labor cost and need is super low. To get coal out of the ground, the labor cost is super hard.

AGAIN I am simply stating the FACT not if this is good or bad, or any political agenda, so don’t yell at me about that.

Again it is just Economics, unless the class 1 rail road find a need to go all electric it will not happen.

I think to circle back to the original question, why is the US rail network not Electrified.  It’s a combination of tax policy, promoting use of fossils fuels. A lack of a fully nationalized rail network, like what is present in Europe. The overall size of the US and the lack of any political will to create a nationalized system. FOR BETTER OR WORSE.

DO NOT YELL AT ME FOR SAYIGN THIS.

I AM NOT SAYING THAT WHAT WE HAVE IS BAD

I AM NOT SAYING THAT OTHER THINGS ARE BETTER.

I am saying why it is the way it is.

We do not have a nationalized system that can force a change of that scale.  We will not make any such change until the hand is forced, by either political will… but more likely economic forces.

Yes there are hundreds of years worth of coal and other hydrocarbon’s but the cost of getting them, labor and the ease of getting to them is only getting harder. Why is fracking so cheap, labor cost and need is super low. To get coal out of the ground, the labor cost is super hard.

AGAIN I am simply stating the FACT not if this is good or bad, or any political agenda, so don’t yell at me about that.

Again it is just Economics, unless the class 1 rail road find a need to go all electric it will not happen.

Lets keep "political" comments out of this discussion per our terms of service.  I don't want to have to lock, delete, etc. since this thread so far has been pretty good!

Interesting you guys are talking about trains in India.

My wife (Train Room Pam) is flying to India on November 26, 2022. She said she will try to get me some rail-fanning photos. The flight will take about 20 hours and the flight goes over Russia. Air India is the only western airliner that is allowed to fly over Russia.

The flight will take about 20 hours from Chicago, Non stop to Delhi India.

Air India

   Gary: Hope to see you out rail-fanning. 🚂

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  • Air India

Ohio and Indiana were once almost covered in interurban lines.  The Wright Brothers rode an interurban out to test fly their test model. Trackless busses that could go anywhere, as well as the personal automobile, drove them out of business. I do wonder why that rail network once was affordable, and no longer is?

You wonder why electrification of interurban lines was "affordable" a hundred years ago? Most all electrification was DC, at various voltages up to 3000 Volts, back then. Pretty much only the PRR and NH had electrification with AC, at about 12,000 Volts.

Installing high voltage electrification in today's environment would be at least 25,000 Volts AC, requiring massive infrastructure installations, with all sorts of electrical noise dampening.

Lines were electrified in the past, some successfully, some not, like the milwaukee road. In the end I suspect it came down to the cost of maintaining the electric infrastructure was more expensive than the diesels that replaced the old steam engines were. Some lines remained electrified, like the old Penn mainline (now the route basically of the Amtrak NE corridor), because there were practical reasons to do so, including having long tunnels where steam or diesel engines can't operate safely.

Electrification is common on commuter length railroads, the engines are a lot quieter than diesels so residential areas are less complaining and electrified railroads also can be a lot faster than anything pulled by a diesel (high speed trains are I think all electrified).

Electrifying trains sounds like a panacea, but there would be a huge cost with it (as with any electric vehicles using the grid). To do that would require a true national power grid I think, something that almost no one seems to be thinking of or working on (there is no such thing; electricity has at best regional grids), for the very reason of making sure there is enough power to power the trains. A true national power grid, that is redundant (similar to the internet is), is prob something we should be doing, but that is another story, not really for this forum.

Then you have the massive infrastructure, which likely would be overhead power rather than something like a third rail, the investment would be hugeNot just the overhead wires and the poles to support them, but then there will be substations along the way that have to bring in power and step it down to what the trains use. That kind of overhead power is very subject to weather and other problems, like a truck driving into them or some drunken fool. Trains running overhead pantographs can in certain circumstances catch the wire and tear it down (used to happen a lot on the Metro North New Haven Branch, happens with Amtrak as well several times a year).  It would be a massive investment I just don't think anyone would be willng to pay for,even if let's say the government decided to pay for the infrastruture and/or make it worthwhile, the railroads would turn it down because of the fear of cost of maintaining it.



China has done it with their high speed rail because there was a will to do it and the government there felt it was important for their future, same way Europe did it. Even so, China has limited it from what I know to certain corridors, and I think it is only passenger.

I didn't read the original piece, but India is probably doing it because they have a huge population and they figured in the long run it would work better than standard diesels. For one thing, they could possibly be thinking of developing high speed rail, in a country where a relatively small percent of the population have a car or could have access to fly.

Yes, cities and towns had a network of things like trolleys and interurbans and they worked. The thing is, they weren't always economically viable, from what I have read even in the heyday, before let's say the 1930's, they were kind of hand to mouth. Many of them developed amusement parks and the like at the end of the line to create traffic on the weekends. Keep in mind this was long before there were government subsidies and I suspect with that, some of the interurban lines could have made it, there was enough demand and might work between bigger towns. What really killed the interurbans was the automobile, why take an interurban when you could drive? As highways and roads were built, it just no longer made sense.



Trolleys died for a lot of reasons. Some of it was just plain downright criminal activity, in other cases urban planners felt (wrongly IMO) that they needed to allow car traffic and trolleys were in the way of that....not to mention they had the ear of "urban planners" (often literally in the pay of bus makers like GM) telling them that that buses were the answer to their problems; ya think that wasn't conflict of interest? Not to mention outright bribes). Some of the downsides of trolleys, like overhead wire or problems with cars could have been dealt with.  Even in a transit dense city like NY, Trolley's could have helped with areas not serviced well by the subway. Unfortunately, as many cities have found, re-establishing light rail isn't easy.

I suspect the only way mass electrification would happen is if it was part of a solution to a major crisis situation , that is how big things tend to happen here in the US.

@bigkid posted:

Lines were electrified in the past, some successfully, some not, like the milwaukee road. In the end I suspect it came down to the cost of maintaining the electric infrastructure was more expensive than the diesels that replaced the old steam engines were. Some lines remained electrified, like the old Penn mainline (now the route basically of the Amtrak NE corridor), because there were practical reasons to do so, including having long tunnels where steam or diesel engines can't operate safely.

Electrification is common on commuter length railroads, the engines are a lot quieter than diesels so residential areas are less complaining and electrified railroads also can be a lot faster than anything pulled by a diesel (high speed trains are I think all electrified).

Electrifying trains sounds like a panacea, but there would be a huge cost with it (as with any electric vehicles using the grid). To do that would require a true national power grid I think, something that almost no one seems to be thinking of or working on (there is no such thing; electricity has at best regional grids), for the very reason of making sure there is enough power to power the trains. A true national power grid, that is redundant (similar to the internet is), is prob something we should be doing, but that is another story, not really for this forum.

Then you have the massive infrastructure, which likely would be overhead power rather than something like a third rail, the investment would be hugeNot just the overhead wires and the poles to support them, but then there will be substations along the way that have to bring in power and step it down to what the trains use. That kind of overhead power is very subject to weather and other problems, like a truck driving into them or some drunken fool. Trains running overhead pantographs can in certain circumstances catch the wire and tear it down (used to happen a lot on the Metro North New Haven Branch, happens with Amtrak as well several times a year).  It would be a massive investment I just don't think anyone would be willng to pay for,even if let's say the government decided to pay for the infrastruture and/or make it worthwhile, the railroads would turn it down because of the fear of cost of maintaining it.



China has done it with their high speed rail because there was a will to do it and the government there felt it was important for their future, same way Europe did it. Even so, China has limited it from what I know to certain corridors, and I think it is only passenger.

I didn't read the original piece, but India is probably doing it because they have a huge population and they figured in the long run it would work better than standard diesels. For one thing, they could possibly be thinking of developing high speed rail, in a country where a relatively small percent of the population have a car or could have access to fly.

Yes, cities and towns had a network of things like trolleys and interurbans and they worked. The thing is, they weren't always economically viable, from what I have read even in the heyday, before let's say the 1930's, they were kind of hand to mouth. Many of them developed amusement parks and the like at the end of the line to create traffic on the weekends. Keep in mind this was long before there were government subsidies and I suspect with that, some of the interurban lines could have made it, there was enough demand and might work between bigger towns. What really killed the interurbans was the automobile, why take an interurban when you could drive? As highways and roads were built, it just no longer made sense.



Trolleys died for a lot of reasons. Some of it was just plain downright criminal activity, in other cases urban planners felt (wrongly IMO) that they needed to allow car traffic and trolleys were in the way of that....not to mention they had the ear of "urban planners" (often literally in the pay of bus makers like GM) telling them that that buses were the answer to their problems; ya think that wasn't conflict of interest? Not to mention outright bribes). Some of the downsides of trolleys, like overhead wire or problems with cars could have been dealt with.  Even in a transit dense city like NY, Trolley's could have helped with areas not serviced well by the subway. Unfortunately, as many cities have found, re-establishing light rail isn't easy.

I suspect the only way mass electrification would happen is if it was part of a solution to a major crisis situation , that is how big things tend to happen here in the US.

It will never  happen , we will never electrify everything! neither does , or will Europe , Asia, Africa S America or Australia

Unfortunately, it probably will never happen. We could electrify the mainlines now, but it would be expensive. But then in the future any source of power could be used to generate electricity to power trains. Instead, the fossil fuel industry's lobbyists will make sure no advances are made in renewable energy like solar (remember when the government used to basically reimburse you for installing solar panels? That ended under Reagan, who was endorsed and supported by the fossil fuel folks.)

So we'll wait til the coal, gas and oil run out, and then it will either be too late to electrify, or will cost a HUGE amount compared to doing it now. Unfortunately, for most folks "long term planning" goes only a few months or years into the future, not decades or generations.

@wjstix posted:

So we'll wait til the coal, gas and oil run out, and then it will either be too late to electrify, or will cost a HUGE amount compared to doing it now. Unfortunately, for most folks "long term planning" goes only a few months or years into the future, not decades or generations.

"If" it runs out. We've been hearing this for years. The so-called experts predicted we'd run out by now 50+ years ago.

Last edited by catnap
@catnap posted:

"If" it runs out. We've been hearing this for years. The so-called experts predicted we'd run out by now 50+ years ago.

It's highly unlikely that we will run out of coal or even oil. It's the cost of getting the stuff that will put it out of reach. It's all boils down to the cost of labor. Why is there a huge boom on fracking, its cheap! By brother-in-law does surveys in CO mostly fracking stuff.  Once it's set up its basically turnkey.  With advances in technology, we are able to access oil and gas, that was unreachable 50 years ago! So were the "so-called experts" wrong?

Depends on how you look at it. With the information they had at the time they made assumptions.

50 years from now I'm sure we will all look like fools for not knowing a thing we do not know now.

Rember Lead in paint and how good it was?  Or the miracle of asbestos.

(FYI, I called PVC being the next bad thing, 15 years ago. Well, more of a guess.)

I am only pointing this out because we need to think bigger and Better.

It's not the supply of fossil fuels we need to worry, it's what they do to the environment.

Remember if the earth was the size of an apple, we have only dug as deep as where the skin ends. 

Some facts about electricity and the environment.

Over the past century, the main energy sources used for generating electricity have been fossil fuels, hydroelectricity and, since the 1950s, nuclear energy.

2017, fossil fuels generated 64.5% of worldwide electricity, compared with 61.9% in 1990.

In 2017, hydropower accounted for 16% of worldwide electricity generation.

In 2018, nuclear power generated 10.5% of the world’s electricity.

In 2017, wind and solar generated 4.4% and 1.3%, respectively, of the world’s electricity. They do not produce electricity predictably or consistently due to their inherent reliance on the weather.

In 2017, biomass generated 2.3% of the world’s electricity.

All above from https://world-nuclear.org/nucl...icity-come-from.aspx

Typical Tesla Model 3 has 2976 Lithium ion cells, 46mm (1.81 inch dia) x 80mm (3.15 inch long), size limited by current battery technology of Lithium ion cell chemistry.  Batteries in houses and cars depend on large banks of slightly larger than D flash light cells.  Batteries only store electrical energy, not produce it, so in most cases the electrical energy will come from fossil fuels per above.

Carbon dioxide, from burning fossil fuels, is by used by plants for food.  Plants feed animals, and plants and animals feed human beings.  Life on planet earth is not possible with out carbon dioxide.

99+ percent of heat energy on the earth is from our Sun.  The earth has experienced a 1.5 percent increase, in temperature F, in the last 100 years.  1.5 F percent increase in world temperature in 100 years is not a crisis worth destroying the worlds economies.  Most of the current green house gas reducing ideas, schemes, laws, and expenditures will not affect the temperature of the earth in any measurable way.

Charlie

Last edited by Choo Choo Charlie

I do wonder why that rail network once was affordable, and no longer is?

Was it truly affordable?

I don't pretend to have done an in depth study of the finances of interurban systems.  However it strikes me that many of them were subsidized by other ventures.  In some cases it was real estate development by the system's promoters.  In others it was done as an adjunct to the power company's business.

Electric trains make a lot of sense in France since they have about 70% nuclear power. Much of Asia and Europe has long-distance electrified freight and passenger trains.

The two problems with having electrified lines in the US in more places are the power plants themselves and the expense of building the infrastructure (either overhead wires or 3rd rails. Hydrogen fuel cell or battery-electric locomotives are a good idea, but there is the manufacture of fuel cells and lithium-ion batteries. Both technologies use fossil fuels to power the manufacturing facilities. However, the batteries are getting better at holding a charge longer and are becoming more efficient and less expensive to manufacture.

The new Wabtec Battery-electric loco has regenerative braking, which charges the batteries and improves efficiency.

Hopefully in the near future, the US could figure out the kinks regarding electrified trains for long-distance freight and passenger trains.

Early streetcar systems had to generate their own electricity to power their networks. They in turn often became the de-facto electricity supplier to their communities owing to the infrastructure they already had in-place. A number of electric utilities became bigger businesses than the street railway companies that birthed them. Could these larger more lucrative electric utilities have subsidized their parent trolley companies when they fell into fiscal difficulty? Probably. But supposedly that otion was taken off the table by SEC rule changes enacted in the early 20th century. Unfortunately I don't have the name of the regulation that prevented such an arrangement, but it has been cited as a factor in a number of streetcar companies becoming increasingly fiscally shaky even before the automobile became a serious threat.

---PCJ

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