Using DCS on a Club Layout

We've been running DCS for 13 years now. We have seven TIUs (two at #1 and two at #5) with no AIUs. All locomotives are added/re-programmed on a test track with one of the #1 TIUs and must be tethered to the remote. #1 and #2 are on the seven tracks of the staging yard; #3, #4, and one of the $5's are out in the main layout room. The second #5 is on the second-level return loop/secondary staging in the staging yard room. Adding a locomotive on the layout is prohibited because that was a big source of problems with address hijacking, phantom engines, and excessive radio chatter.

Members can use any address they choose but we recommend against using address 1. Most of the members using DCS tend to group their locomotives in certain ranges and we check with other members before using an address. The nice thing about using a setup track is that no locomotive gets its address hijacked and only your engines are in your remote.

Having the remote in Super TIU mode with multiple TIU addresses is not a problem when running at home. The remotes find the TIU(s) and locomotives just fine.

While we were hoping that a later release of the DCS software would support 4-digit addressing, that hasn't materialized so far, but by using a setup track to add locomotives, lack of additional addresses hasn't been the issue we thought it would be.

What makes DCS in a club environment work is communication among members and the use of a tethered test/setup track. This prevents address conflicts. On the odd occasions when two locomotives have the same address, one is pulled and placed on the test track to have its address changed for that operating session. The member can change it back later.

Matt,

Thanks for sharing!

So the reason you can reuse some TIU (1 & 5) addresses is because you are in Super Mode?

When a TIU has a remote tether attached does that disable the TIU's  and or the Remotes Radio?  What if you have just the the cord attached to the TIU with no remote on the other end?

Bill,

Suppose the club has 3 TIUs  in super mode (1,2,3) and a members home layout has only 1 or 2 TIUs.  When the remote is turned on and programed for 3 super tius will it be ok if it is used in another environment with only 1 or 2 TIUs (eg home)

If the layout at home has fewer TIUs than does the layout at the club, when using the remote at home it's best to delete any TIUs that are at the club but not at home, that are lower numbered than those at home.

Otherwise, errors may result when attempting to add engines to the remote at home when the engine is on a track belonging to a TIU that has a higher number than one at the club that's not on the member's home layout.

As a rule, have all TIUs at home start with #1 and be sequentially numbered without any gaps. Also, add all engines at the club to TIU #1.

This and a whole lot more is all in MTH’s “The DCS O Gauge Companion 2nd Edition", available for purchase as an eBook or a printed book at MTH's web store!

What's the significance of the remote numbers?  I've heard varying stories about how important they are.

 If the remote & tiu are tethered the remote only talks to  the tethered  tiu.( no other ones)   

It's ok to leave the tether in one end (remote or tiu) nothing happens. Why would you want to?

Bill, it's good to hear from you. I hope all things are going well. Good luck with the system at the shows.

 It's much easier for me as my stuff doesn't move!!

I don't believe the cord works unless there's something attached to it. I don't believe there's any type of mechanical switch inside. Ooops, Gregg replied.

John,

What's the significance of the remote numbers?  I've heard varying stories about how important they are.

In early DCS releases, they served some purpose. Now, all they are good for is to keep remotes a bit better organized.

So if a remote is tethered to a TIU, can other non tethered remotes still talk to that TIU?

No they can't ...... ( Even if you made Y cable the tiu will still only talk to one remote).

Barry,

Can you have say three layouts in the same room like at a show, where layout A has TIU 1, 2 & 3 in super mode,  Layout B has TIU 4 in normal mode and Layout C has TIU 5 in normal mode.

If Layout A,B & C's remotes have only the right TIUs loaded, can things operate ok?  (Eg no cross command between A,B,C)

Assigning ID s to members is a good idea. Another option. we have a list of our  engines with their ID numbers. If a guest comes over with a engine and it has the same ID as one of ours we just remove ours from the track. (or park it on a dead track) Not a problem.

yes

When tethered, the remote's radio is disabled and it only talks to the TIU its tethered to. The setup track TIU is only powered when the test track is turned on, but it wouldn't care about having the cord plugged in without a remote attached. We keep the cord plugged in so it won't get lost.

One problem that Barry alluded to is that when adding a locomotive in super TIU mode, the remote will scan all of the TIUs listed and sometimes gets errors when it can't find them. Tethered eliminates that when adding. When I'm testing at home (one TIU/address #1), I do a READ when I first turn things on and I haven't had a problem, but that MAY be related to the remote not finding the other four TIU addresses. Maybe I just get lucky. Other members seem to have no problems as I had instructed them to keep their home TIUs starting at address #1 without gaps.

By the way, I set up duplicate TIU #5 in the staging room because the primary layout #5 TIU is at the far end of the building and is out of RF range of the remote when reading in the staging room.

Bill,

Can you have say three layouts in the same room like at a show, where layout A has TIU 1, 2 & 3 in super mode,  Layout B has TIU 4 in normal mode and Layout C has TIU 5 in normal mode.

 

If Layout A,B & C's remotes have only the right TIUs loaded, can things operate ok?  (Eg no cross command between A,B,C)

Yes, that will work. Further, remotes B and C can have their remotes tethered to their respective TIUs, if desired.

It would kinda' remove the attraction of a "remote" to tether them, obviously that should work but limits you to one remote for the layout.

Let's have a slightly different scenario.

We have a modular club, and we're about to add a TIU, so we'll have two.  If we configure in Super-TIU mode and add #'s 1 and 2 to the remotes, you're saying that someone else running in Super-TIU mode with #'s 3, 4, 5 would not be a problem if they were in range of our layout.  This is a situation we faced last year with three DCS layouts all within range of each other.  We only had one TIU at that point and just went around and made sure nobody else was stepping on our number. 

John,

As long as each club's remotes have only that club's own TIUs in their innards, and no two clubs have the same numbered TIUs, and everyone is at DCS 4.30, all should be well.

There was this odd bug in DCS 4.20 and 4.10 ...  

Thanks Barry, running multiple layouts is new ground for us, so we're still finding our way.

will the new app, help eliminate crosstalk between club's tius?

Joe,

will the new app, help eliminate crosstalk between club's tius?

No, it will not. Why would you expect it to do so?

Barry, Gregg, Matt,

Very good info!  Thanks!!!

I am mulling it all over presently.  Will probably have some questions soon.

-Bill

I had been holding off on upgrading the club TIU's (and the members' remotes and TIU's) to 4.30 because of a purported Lash-up issue, but since I've discovered that I'm about the only one who does Lash-ups it's a non-issue.

I am upgrading everyone to 4.30 as fast as possible.   I'd like to upgrade them to 4.31...

Hi Matt What's the lash-up issue? We just burnout a rear engine of a lash-up, probably operator error but I've never had any luck with lash-ups. Thinking of making it a dummy. Running 4.3 with 4 tiu in super.

It seems like technically DCS can handle this. 

The real issue is identifying which other clubs at a show will be using TIUs and to coordinate the TIU numbering. 

That leaves one issue.  Most clubs will want to default to TIU 1 and maybe 2.

So three clubs arrive at a show they meet up and chat while assembling layouts.

It is agreed that club A will use TIU 1 & 2, Club B will use TIU 3 and Club C will use TIU 4 & 5.

Club A is in good shape because all of their remotes and TIUs are numbered correctly.  Regardless of if they were using super or normal mode.

Club B must switch their TIU from (presumably 1) to 3.

So club B should tether a Remote to their TIU 1, and edit the TIU address to be 3.

So what happens to to Club B's engines in their remote that are associated with TIU 1 it they are using Normal Mode? If they are using Super Mode?

Likewise the next Club B Remote must now drop TIU 1 and add TIU 3??? Again what happens with the engines if they were in super or normal mode?

I am pretty sure that if I delete TIU X in normal mode from my remote all engines associated with TIU X go away....???

As a follow on to above would it make sense for a club to set themselves up as TIU 4 and 5 so as to limit the potential conflicts / changes since most will use TIU 1, (2)

There had been reports of member locomotives losing features and requiring resetting. I didn't encounter it because we're still on version 4.2 at the club. Never heard anything drastic like what you had happen, though. I did have a 5-volt PS2 engine blow it's capacitor while it was in a lash-up, but that was unrelated to it being a lash-up member.

In a club context where trains run through the staging area, we can't turn off the track power, so locomotives being placed on staging won't get a watchdog signal. Whenever I build a lash-up, I begin by selecting and starting up each member locomotive, then build and start up the lash-up. Never had a problem.

Good questions.  Engines are associated with the tiu  they've been added to. If you use the edit tiu address command the engine/ tiu association  will move to the new  tiu address.

The  king of association is the " read" It'll will move engines to the new tiu  address however it takes forever. Best to use the edit tiu  address command if you can.Other remotes will just have to add the new tiu address. Hopefully deleting the old address will not delete the engine since they're now associated with the new address. I can try it later this week, maybe Thurs.

Yes deleting a tiu will  also delete all your engines in normal mode, I'm not sure about super mode but probably as well .  Having a spare remote can sometimes make things a little easier when it comes setting up and deleting tiu.

It'll delete them in SuperTIU mode, too.

Thanks Matt, I suppose we really should not  have to delete a tiu if editing the address from say 1 to 3.   Tiu #1 will  now be missing from the remote.  The engines would now be associated with TIU #3.

  This is where it gets confusing . The other club remotes would have to add tiu #3 , since  the engines are now associated with tiu #3 , but tiu #1 is still added, Will deleting TIU #1 delete the engines? I don't think so in normal mode. Not really sure though.

I thought with one box per TIU, the box would talk directly to the tiu? Would it sever radio communications like when a remote is tethered?

Also remember that Layout A, B and C all have 5-10 modular club members who ideally are bring their own Remotes with their own engines preloaded.

So is there a way for all the members of club B to simply change their remotes TIU from 1 to 3 without losing all their engines in the remote?

It seems like the first guy from club B is OK because he is the one who issues the change TIU Address command and gets the nice side effect of all engine - tiu pairs changing as well. 

But club B member #2 two is hosed.  There is no TIU 1 anymore to change to 3 so they have to Delete 1 (and their engines) then add 3.

A work around might be to have another spare (blank) remote, that after club B member 1 does a change address on the TIU and unplugs, you then plug in the  spare remote renumber the TIU to 1 again (add 3, renumber to 1).  Now club B member 2 can plug his remote in and change it back to 3 and get his engines reassigned. Then the blank remote again (drop 1, add 3, renumber to 1).

Ouch! My head hurts just thinking this up....

Plan B:  Erect lead walls between each layout....

Given a large percentage of home DCS users are single-TIU (no actual hard stats -- just a presumption based on our members in basement-free California and people I've dealt with), I'd advise that the club TIU's run from address 2 through 5 (super TIU) with address 1 for the setup/programming track (tethered). That way, engines are always associated with TIU #1 both at home and at the club. I'd follow that up with a prohibition on adding engines on the layout. We're looking at getting some new TIU's in preparation of adding WiFi modules and will probably eliminate two of the TIU's in the staging room in favor of a single TIU on address 2 and do some minor re-wiring.

The easiest way to have multiple remotes for a show where other groups will be operating is to prearrange, in advance of the show, which groups will have which TIU numbers. Then:

• Use a PC to back up each of the remotes that will be used at the show
• Assign DCS ID#'s to each of the TIUs that will be used at the show, using one remote
• Use a PC to back up that remote
• Use a PC to restore that remote's backup file into the other remotes that will be used at the show
• After the show, use one remote to return the show TIUs to their usual DCS ID#'s
• Restore all remotes to their original configurations by restoring their previously saved backup file copies. 

Barry,

Thats a good approach.  i have never backed up and restored remotes,  does it take as long as uploading new DCS long?

Matt,

I follow you for club and home 

I am not sure how to apply what you are saying, club, home, show.... It seems like at the show you wind up with multiple TIU 1s. Unless you turn them on and off as needed for programming and our course using a tether.   This means though that there are just 4 usable TIU addresses left for thE clubs though everyone probably does need the separate programming tiu anyway.....

 Single tiu at show.....If you knew what tiu number you were going to use at the display,  members could edit their home tiu to that number.  After the show they could leave it at the new address or move it back.

Bill,

i have never backed up and restored remotes

Refer to The DCS O Gauge Companion 2nd Edition pages 144-146.

does it take as long as uploading new DCS long?

Transfer time is approx. 6 minutes per remote.

This and a whole lot more is all in MTH’s “The DCS O Gauge Companion 2nd Edition", available for purchase as an eBook or a printed book at MTH's web store!

Notes:

(1.) All batteries/BCR's need to be fully charged before the units are set on the club layout.

(2.) Adding units during a club meet operation session seems to be problematic.

(3.) We, (Fort Pitt High Railers), have (one) marked, master remote.  All editing, add or deletions, are done to the master remote.

(4.) Contents of the master remote are downloaded to a laptop computer via TIU #1 and the appropriate connection cord. Newer TIU's take a different cord than older TIU's. 

There is also a Telephone hand set cord, that connects the remote to the TIU.  

(5.) All other remotes are cloned from the computer information. 

With a little luck, all are on the same page.

(6.) TIU set up.  Super mode. All variable channels are set to fixed.  (2) TIU allows for (8) track circuits. One TIU will run the (4) oval tracks, the other TIU is usually dedicated to the Roundhouse/Turntable. 

(7.) Large layouts, over 120 ft./240 ft. of track, we have split track circuits, with (2) DCS output, one clockwise, one counter clockwise, around the loop. The loop is split 1/2 way around. Simple un-plug a module connection.  Input from a Z4000 is hooked to both input terminals of the TIU.

Example: fixed 1, and variable 1, set to fixed are hooked to the left Z 4000 handle. 

The one Z4000 handle still works the entire loop with two DCS circuits.

First year saw a lot of success immediately, but eventually as the remotes became/I use the word, corrupted/ problems began to surface. Eventually we ended-up doing the process the second time to clean up the problems.

Most significant problem, assigned engine numbers were duplicated.  If some one wishes to add a loco/unit. It has to be done to the master remote, down loaded to the laptop, and then uploaded to all other remotes.

Batteries and BCR's not charged, the most annoying problem.

You also need to put your best DCS guru in charge of all this.

Another note: The two club TIU's after several years of operation, have been back for repair more than once.  We were considering passive mode, as an alternative to the track circuits passing through the TIU's.

That being said, I'll go back to running my TMCC units.   Though the larger layouts, which were never a problem with TMCC, can have signal problems with Legacy, which appears to have a whole lot lest signal power.  Who knew.

Basically, the idea is to eliminate TIU #1 from anything other than the setup track (tethered). Modular groups would have to make arrangements with respect to the TIU addresses they use, but some cooperation is definitely required and standardizing on TIU 1 as tethered setup only keeps engines associated only with TIU 1, which is usually what people are running at home anyway. I'm preparing a graphic to show the thought process.