Vision Line - Hudson & Genset Issues

There have been some threads on related subjects after Lionel released a video about sine wave characteristics of different transformers and generally touting better performance with theirs, including compared with the Z-4000. But I don't recall anything specific about Legacy malfunctions. However, I use a Z-4000 (with a carpet layout) and I have wondered whether than accounts for some of the problems I have had, or Legacy engines not performing quite as advertised. I doubt it because the problems do not affect all engines (and I have no problem with operating cars) but others would know better.

I think (emphasize "think" because I could easily be wrong about this and probably am) the Z-1000 (as opposed to the Z4000) puts out a chopped sine wave like the solid state Lionel transformers, such as the bricks. (As I understand it, the Z-4000 puts out a smooth sine wave like Lionel Postwar transformers, such as the original ZW - I think that's what Mike Regan said in his video; this may account for some of your problems, Hancock52.)

However, even if it appears that the Z-1000 may be compatible from the sine wave standpoint, there have been enough compatibility issues documented between Lionel and MTH power sources that I'd be curious to see if any of these Legacy engine operational issues disappeared if Jeff tried a Lionel power supply instead of that MTH transformer. Also, maybe I missed it, but it isn't clear to me how Jeff has his Z-1000 hooked up with the Legacy and at what voltage.

Looking forward to hearing from Forum members who are better informed.

I've run my assortment of Legacy, TMCC, and PS/2 locomotives on the variable channels of the MTH TIU as well as the Lionel PowerHouse 180 bricks through the fixed channels of the MTH TIU (a direct track connection).  I've seen no discernible differences in operation in any of those environments.  They've also run using an old PW ZW, with the same result.  Many of them have run in the club layout with the PH180 and at one time the PW-ZW.

I wouldn't use something like the Z1000 controller for strictly command operation, I'd just use the brick for pure power.  IMO, you will almost always be more compatible with a pure sine wave source than with the chopped waveform from electronic power controls.  That's not to say you'll have a problem with the chopped sine wave, it's just that I feel you'll have less issues running with a pure sine wave supply.

EDIT:  I forgot to mention, my Vision Line NS genset has no issues at all in any of the operating environments, the three smoke units work as they should.  My only complaint is the sticky flappers on the smoke stacks.

The noise from the smoke unit on my Legacy K4 is louder than the chuff from the railsounds system. In fact if I turn off the sound the noise from the smoke unit sounds like a chuff.

When Lionel lowered the overall volume on Legacy and other recent production the noise of the fan driven units is much more noticeable. In the past the chuff and other sounds were loud enough to drown out the noise from the fan motor.

Of course, we don't know how Jeff has his power set up or with what voltage, and whether with a MTH TIU or not, with variable channel, fixed channel, or whatever. 

(These cross-bred systems are too complicated and problematic for me. To avoid issues, I use the simplest, most straightforward system: Lionel power with Lionel controls for Lionel engines. The "one wire" hookup. Relatively fool-proof for fools like me.) 

You're certainly correct, there are a lot of variables that enter into the picture.

Well, when a month or so ago I was lucky enough to be at Berwyn's Toy Trains in Chicago, I saw a ZW-L and began to think, "Is this the answer to my prayers?" in terms of a reliable power source that will produce the performance I see in other people's videos as well as Lionel's.

it's that kind of thinking that gets you into trouble. 

However, there's only one way to find out, isn't there?

I've caught many of the replies on my cell phone via eMail while at work and this is my first opportunity to reply.

The MTH Z1000 is connected as a pure power supply, I have the "barrel to spade" adapter connecting directly to the track.  So the track (small O-54 oval) is at full power at all times and a black wire from the Lionel Command base is connected for the Legacy control.

Honestly, I didn't research the power supplies a few years ago and went with the LHS which said I just needed the MTH Z1000 for the scale PE setup.  But, I know from a computer standpoint I have bought many new power supplies recently and I point the finger at the APC chopped-sine wave backup units, so I'm slowly switching to a different company and unit with a true sine wave.  If Lionel engines prefer a pure sine wave then I will be switching ASAP (aka; couple weeks) and move the Z1000 to a different purpose (ie; accessories (some day)).

I did receive an eMail from Lionel ~2 hours ago the Genset is on its way back, so maybe it will be here in a couple days.

Thanks!

- Jeff

An adventure!  

From what I've read, in the prayer answering department for running Lionel, the ZW-L should provide a pretty good answer.   

As the Webmaster said a while back during a discussion of Lionel and MTH control systems:

"Both systems work very well running their respective manufacturers trains. If you have trains from MTH, Lionel and the others, you will need BOTH systems to run the trains well."

Totally correct, of course. Note the sentence "Both systems work very well running their respective manufacturers trains."

Which means - not necessarily a different manufacturer's trains. And note the statement that to run trains from different manufacturers well you will need BOTH systems....

So it seems clear that the simplest and safest course of action for ease of setup and hiccup-free operation is: use Lionel power/controls with Lionel engines and use MTH power/controls with MTH engines.

Just an opinion from a seeker of the simple.

Since the Z1000 brick produces a pure sine wave, I can't imagine why it wouldn't run Lionel equipment just fine, and in my experience with both the Z1000 and Z750 bricks, it indeed does.

If you're experiencing issues with the Z1000 brick connected directly to the track and the Legacy system connected properly, my opinion is it's not the transformer that is the issue.

Everyone,

Sorry for the long delay updating this thread, been busy with work/home to-do list.

The Genset came back and according to the enclosed letter the noise was confirmed and they found a disconnected wire for the smoke stack on the control switch.  I never played with the switch, only turned the smoke on/off from the Legacy remote.  And, the noise they experienced after fixing the unit is deemed acceptable.  So I was honestly excited once again to put it on the oval and see it operating.  Alas, the sliding windows have all fallen out during shipping and now the light board does not light up "300" on the left side.  And, finally the noise is still there just like before but it is deemed acceptable (baffling).  I decided to give an MTH Z750 a try, which runs my son's MTH around the ceiling in his bedroom but still the problem exists and actually the Genset has problems receiving receiving/responding to the Legacy signal.

Based upon the postings here I decided to switch to a genuine Lionel power supply which took a while to find (including the for sale forum here) and finally was able to source a new 180W Powerhouse.  Once it arrived I attached it to the track and the noise, while still present, is a fraction of what I experience using the Z750/Z1000.  I would say it was 20% of what I experienced with the Z1000 but it is still present.  

At this point (today) I decided to purchase some of the Atlas track I will be using for a permanent layout (O72 loop and a few switches).  Currently I have been using an O54 oval with MTH RealTrax setup, maybe this is the problem?  Once the Atlas track arrives I will set to creating the new oval and see if it makes a difference.

I have not heard anything regarding the Hudson.

Thanks!

- Jeff

Well, Atlas track is quieter running than Fastrack or Realtrax, so it may make a difference.  Hard to know without hearing the noise.

The windows are somewhat of a PITA on the genset, I've glued a bunch in, and put the sliding windows in several times.