TrainingDave posted:When I buy a car I tend to read the manual..
But, the level of the consumables in your car is clearly indicated by a dipstick or other such method. 
I've only owned 5 Legacy steam engines, but not one has a problem. And, I always use the smoke. So, I am not complaining.
However, I do find it strange that this problem of easily/properly refilling the smoke units can't be overcome.
Captaincog posted:Someone should design a smoke fluid fill gauge, like a fuel tank gauge, to tell the user how full is full.
Or go back to smoke tablets? 
This CW guy who has nothing to do with the BB is such an expert. He wants to help the future of the hobby but does not see it in front of him. Like Barry, it is very frustrating trying to give guys first hand information and have guys like him chirp in with stupid comments and nothing he states is based on basis of knowledge. Doing Lionel repair work for Charles Ro, I get to see many hundreds of locomotives each year and have always tried to pass on tips to Forum members. Getting hard to do so with guys like him chirping in with unfounded B_.
well that is the way of the Forum ------- can be frustrating at times.
Bob C.
Marty Fitzhenry posted:Barry, you are very correct. Many would like to go with something they heard and I must be an idiot trying to pass on first hand information. I have always tried to share information but it is a waste of time. I feel I might stay clear of fielding questions and just stay with the buy sell forum. My trains run great as you know.
Marty
I respect your info and time .. I just think the blowdown hole if you spill some or overfill it the fluid can go down to the boards. I do own this engine and I do agree that a lot of issues with modern trains are from operator error .
MARTY F., GUNRUNNER, and BARRY all are the best at giving good info in helping us fix our trains. After all, these trains have moving parts and electrical hook ups and sometimes they do have problems, so with the help of these GUYZ, I say thank you and please keep giving us the information we need. YUZ GUYZ are A No.1!!!!!
Marty Fitzhenry posted:I have always tried to share information but it is a waste of time. I feel I might stay clear of fielding questions and just stay with the buy sell forum.
Well, it's not a waste of time as far as I'm concerned. I hope you will continue to field questions. The answers are useful and appreciated.
the more information the better
Bob C,
There was a good point made earlier about tipping engines over, including when sending them in for repairs, and having the result being fluid leaks inside the boiler, including on the boards. Something to keep in mind, and I suppose folks should try to drain fluid before shipping. Not sure of the best way to do that, though.
Also, I wonder if it would be possible to brush some rubber sealant or something similar on the boards to help them resist the effects of smoke fluid.
breezinup posted:There was a good point made earlier about tipping engines over, including when sending them in for repairs, and having the result being fluid leaks inside the boiler, including on the boards. Something to keep in mind, and I suppose folks should try to drain fluid before shipping. Not sure of the best way to do that, though.
Also, I wonder if it would be possible to brush some rubber sealant or something similar on the boards to help them resist the effects of smoke fluid.
This is a great point. When I store my trains or transport them, all of my engine boxes are marked which way is up for the locomotive. They always sit oriented up in the boxes. Maybe that's why I have less problems.
brushing on a sealant may be a way to go but I bet you would void the warranty in Lionels eyes.
Bob C.
Here is the BB layout to end this. Orange circle far right is the twin stack main smoke unit. The yellow circle in the middle is the whistle smoke. Way back left in green is the closest board. It is the RS Lite sound board. In photo 2 you will see the main board (RCMC) located under the control switches.
Well...speaking of smoke units and their application to these Lionel engines...I just rebuilt a smoke unit in a GP7. One of the first Legacy engines. I have to say (and I guess I can since I BOUGHT this engine) that the smoke delivery is quite lame. The smoke unit is about in the center of the locomotive and has a two (rectangular) hole on each end of a rectangular tube. The bottom of the tube presses into the smoke unit outlet. Not very well though, because the smoke unit is not high enough to allow the tube to be level. One end rests on the antenna in the roof of the engine. The other end is somewhat too low for the outlet to be flush to the face of the holes in the top cover of the engine shell. Because the tube can swivel, it did. And because it swiveled, you could pour your 15 drops down onto the motor driver board instead of into the tube. And because it swiveled and if you put the fluid into the other open smoke hole which is almost accessible , the smoke occurs and smoke vapor permeates the inside of the roof of the engine over the smoke area. And quite a lot on the smoke electronics and the motor driver board. Luckily nothing is damaged and the engine smokes quite well now that the hard crust of burnt packing (which never happens if there is fluid in it) is removed, new installed, and the tube, etc. is adjusted so the vapor mostly comes out the smoke stacks in the top cover of the locomotive. I don't see any gaskets, etc. on the parts fiche so I guess there never were any.
No argument can dissuade me from knowing that if someone bought this engine and if smoke fluid ruined the circuit boards, that the customer should share any responsibility for fluid damage.
And that is what this entire thread is about. Not bashing the customer, but having some compassion for the customer that entered into a hobby which requires more than an on/off switch in which to participate. That's ok I think, welcome, but the customer should not be belittled and punished for the learning process that accompanies the participation.
and it IS a learning process with the smoke feature
Bob C.
Robert Coniglio posted:brushing on a sealant may be a way to go but I bet you would void the warranty in Lionels eyes.
It sounds like spilling fluid on the boards voids the warranty, too, so perhaps there's nothing lost in trying.
breezinup posted:Robert Coniglio posted:brushing on a sealant may be a way to go but I bet you would void the warranty in Lionels eyes.
It sounds like spilling fluid on the boards voids the warranty, too, so perhaps there's nothing lost in trying.
Opening the engine to access the boards voids the warranty.
Follow the book and you will NEVER have a problem.
cjack posted:And that is what this entire thread is about. Not bashing the customer, but having some compassion for the customer that entered into a hobby which requires more than an on/off switch in which to participate. That's ok I think, welcome, but the customer should not be belittled and punished for the learning process that accompanies the participation.
I haven't seen any manufacturer bashing, punishing, or belittling a customer on this thread.
Back to the car analogy -
Yes there's a learning curve. So when you first start to drive, do you go out and buy a brand new car to learn how to drive in? I would suspect most people get hand-me-down or used cars. I.E. older TMCC/Legacy engines that have less risk involved if they are damaged during the learning curve.
And if you WERE to get a new car in learning how to drive and you screwed that car up because of the learning curve, would you expect the car manufacturer to fix the damage to the car caused by your learning curve?
I would suspect not.
If you're learning how to run a Legacy engine and modern smoke units, do not start out w/ a $2000 Bigboy.
breezinup posted:There was a good point made earlier about tipping engines over, including when sending them in for repairs, and having the result being fluid leaks inside the boiler, including on the boards. Something to keep in mind, and I suppose folks should try to drain fluid before shipping. Not sure of the best way to do that, though.
If I need to empty the engine of smoke fluid, I run the units until they stop putting out smoke. Again, running the smoke units dry will NOT damage them.
If you have to send the engine in for repair and cannot run the smoke units, then stuff the stack, holes, etc w/ paper towels or sponges to plug and/or sop up as much fluid as possible and then put a note in w/ the engine explaining why you did this. To keep the fluid from going everywhere.
I believe that to run these smoke units dry will cause damage. there is no reason to run them dry. it is not a good idea per my experience.
Bob C.
Marty Fitzhenry posted:Here is the BB layout to end this. Orange circle far right is the twin stack main smoke unit. The yellow circle in the middle is the whistle smoke. Way back left in green is the closest board. It is the RS Lite sound board. In photo 2 you will see the main board (RCMC) located under the control switches.
Second picture inside the yellow circle accident waiting to happen. anybody agree?
Which board(s) or parts failed in your BB?
They didn't tell me they are still working on it.
Marty Fitzhenry posted:Here is the BB layout to end this. Orange circle far right is the twin stack main smoke unit. The yellow circle in the middle is the whistle smoke. Way back left in green is the closest board. It is the RS Lite sound board. In photo 2 you will see the main board (RCMC) located under the control switches.
how could smoke fluid kill a board based on these pictures?
something does not add up.
what was the original issue as the first post only said;
" I sent my Bigboy in for repair. Received a call from Lionel telling me it would not be covered under warranty do to smoke fluid on the circuit boards. $300 for repairs.(estimate) I must of overfilled them. A costly lesson."
it does seem a bit strange at first glance
Bob C.
Guys, that is the VL BB. CPBILL, why would you say that. That board is about a foot away from the main smoke unit. No accident waiting to happen. Lionel sold a great many of these engines. Today, unlike any other time Lionel has Mike Reagan to put his stamp on products made. Ryan Kunkle is on top of everything . If a problem was in the wind, this locomotive would have been done different. The blowdown smoke unit is behind the RCMC. I can not think anyone would overfill that.
This CW guy who has nothing to do with the BB is such an expert. He wants to help the future of the hobby but does not see it in front of him. Like Barry, it is very frustrating trying to give guys first hand information and have guys like him chirp in with stupid comments and nothing he states is based on basis of knowledge.
Hey Marty: I didn't make comments about the construction of the locomotive. My comments were about customer service, something I do know something about. I dealt with customer service in the latter part of my career and received some formal training in the area. What is your familiarity with the subject?
You can't refute my comments so you resort to name calling. Very adult.
Relax. I for one do not care that you do not buy modern products. When this post ends, you can take over advice for people. I am sure you will do a great job.
Marty Fitzhenry posted:Guys, that is the VL BB. CPBILL, why would you say that. That board is about a foot away from the main smoke unit. No accident waiting to happen. Lionel sold a great many of these engines. Today, unlike any other time Lionel has Mike Reagan to put his stamp on products made. Ryan Kunkle is on top of everything . If a problem was in the wind, this locomotive would have been done different. The blowdown smoke unit is behind the RCMC. I can not think anyone would overfill that.
How does the the fluid get to the blow down smoke unit ? Does a tube connect it?
Barry Broskowitz posted:Marty Fitzhenry,
You should change your forum handle to "Don Quixote". You have about the same chance at convincing these folks that you are correct, as he had tilting at windmills.
Fewer and fewer people take responsibility for their actions in our society, and fewer still pay attention to documentation.
I truly believe that most of the issues with our toy trains are owner-inflicted, myself included. We just hate to admit it!
I completely agree with this sentiment and most of what Marty Fitzhenry said too. But there are really 2 issues being conflated.
One is operator error with the operators not wanting to take responsibility. Agree wholeheartedly.
The other is also as you say - no one wants to take responsibility - including the Lionels of the world. I can read the entire manual day and night, as Marty suggests, and it still won't help me know, at any point in the entire time I own a locomotive, the actual fluid level.
So as I stated earlier, it is instinct and luck that would be the reasons for no smoke unit problems - even under optimum circumstances - not the manual. The unit is susceptible to issues because the locomotive has no accurate (or even semi-accurate) way of measuring fluid level. The manufacturers are very well aware. If they neither engineer a fix nor cover it under warranty, they are pushing to the consumer an obvious design flaw.
To your point, Barry, logic seems to be falling on deaf ears here. So feel free to continue with patronizing comments, but I defy you or anyone else to argue - with actual facts and logic - that the manufacture provides any accurate way to know the fluid level. The manual provides nothing more than very general instructions that, if you think about it, actually have zero correlation to actual fluid level. The locomotive has no gauge. The command control offers nothing.
In case you're wondering, I've never had a smoke unit problem, but this is beside the point. Given the facts, that's only a function of luck.
Peter
TrainingDave posted:cjack posted:And that is what this entire thread is about. Not bashing the customer, but having some compassion for the customer that entered into a hobby which requires more than an on/off switch in which to participate. That's ok I think, welcome, but the customer should not be belittled and punished for the learning process that accompanies the participation.
I haven't seen any manufacturer bashing, punishing, or belittling a customer on this thread.
Back to the car analogy -
Yes there's a learning curve. So when you first start to drive, do you go out and buy a brand new car to learn how to drive in? I would suspect most people get hand-me-down or used cars. I.E. older TMCC/Legacy engines that have less risk involved if they are damaged during the learning curve.
And if you WERE to get a new car in learning how to drive and you screwed that car up because of the learning curve, would you expect the car manufacturer to fix the damage to the car caused by your learning curve?
I would suspect not.
If you're learning how to run a Legacy engine and modern smoke units, do not start out w/ a $2000 Bigboy.
Old car, new car. Novice driver, experienced driver. All of this is, if you were to think about it, completely irrelevant. All cars come with a fuel gauge and a warning light for when oil is one quart low. A temperature gauge and speedometer too.
Marty Fitzhenry - don't give up. Your input is valued. I mean this sincerely. But you have to recognize that tips aren't the point. I wouldn't buy a car without a fuel gauge and wouldn't expect the mechanic to get mad at me because I prefer having a fuel gauge over his tips.
unfortunately at this time we have no gauges so tips are it for now
Bob C.
If only there was a way to tell if there was fluid in the unit. Imagine if when the unit was turned on, and it put out smoke, this indicated that the unit had smoke fluid in it.
Now to stretch the imagination further, imagine if when the unit stopped putting out smoke, this indicated that the unit no longer had smoke fluid in it. At that point, it would almost be like the smoke unit telling you to add the amount of smoke fluid that the manual recommends!
Of course the above is just fairy tale logic and does not apply in a world full of needles and gauges and other devices that prevent us from having to think too hard.
The original poster feels like he got stiffed by Lionel's "customer service" and maybe he did. Now everyone is calling names and belittling others. VERY mature ??!! Right ?
No gauge is necessary. Plus, I don't see how one could be used to measure smoke fluid levels when the smoke fluid is absorbed by a wick. Gauges fail and it would just be another thing that could potentially malfunction in a locomotive.
It's real simple the way I see it. As stated in the owner's manuals, add the recommended amount of smoke fluid once smoke output decreases.
I have a small roster of diesels and some of the smoke units are filled differently. I don't count drops since I use a needle tip applicator and squeeze bottle. In most cases I can place the applicator right into the batting and dispense the smoke fluid. I go by feel and experience. When I see a sufficient amount of smoke being produced I know it's time to stop adding fluid.
For those engines that have a funnel that channels the smoke fluid into the reservoir I give the bottle a couple of squeezes and allow the smoke fluid to settle into the batting overnight, or at least a couple of hours before operating. I find this method works best for these engines.
Haha, there are no smoke and mirrors to this. Find a procedure that works best for you and if all else fails, refer to the booklet that came with the locomotive.
cpbill posted:How does the the fluid get to the blow down smoke unit ? Does a tube connect it?
No, not a tube but there is a connecting piece between the blowdown fill hole and the smoke unit.
Thanks to an earlier thread started by Alex M, we have a full set of photos of the inside of both the VL BB engine and tender, which is here: Inside the VL Big Boy
Here's a set of photos from that thread showing the metal assembly that connects the blowdown smoke unit to the fill hole, which of course is near the main set of control switches:
H
The tube is what connects the smoke outlet to the blowdown openings, as shown below:
I would think that unless you are using a needle tip or flexible dropper there's bound to be some risk of getting smoke fluid on the parts nearest the fill hole, which include control boards. But I have found that the smoke unit filler included with the VL BB avoids this.
(The blowdown feature on mine doesn't work as well as I hoped and I know other people have had the same problem, but that's a different subject.)
TrainingDave posted:If only there was a way to tell if there was fluid in the unit. Imagine if when the unit was turned on, and it put out smoke, this indicated that the unit had smoke fluid in it.
Now to stretch the imagination further, imagine if when the unit stopped putting out smoke, this indicated that the unit no longer had smoke fluid in it. At that point, it would almost be like the smoke unit telling you to add the amount of smoke fluid that the manual recommends!
Of course the above is just fairy tale logic and does not apply in a world full of needles and gauges and other devices that prevent us from having to think too hard.
Actually I think much of the over fill happens exactly when the smoke diminishes for some unknown issue just as I reported above where the batting was hard and crispy or when a liquid bubble occurs. I think the common tendency is to put some fluid in just to see if that's it. What other skills does one have? And of course, that makes it worse.
After some experience with these smoke units, one learns to do some diagnostics before resorting to the more fluid fix. Blow into the stack, turn the engine sound down and listen for the fan (Lionel has a reputation of failed fan motors), and of course on the very latest smoke units there is a diagnostic cab blinking light tell that helps.
So it's not as simple as "it's stopped smoking...put in some fluid". That's exactly the unhelpful advice we are trying to avoid.
Hancock52 posted:cpbill posted:How does the the fluid get to the blow down smoke unit ? Does a tube connect it?
No, not a tube but there is a connecting piece between the blowdown fill hole and the smoke unit.
Thanks to an earlier thread started by Alex M, we have a full set of photos of the inside of both the VL BB engine and tender, which is here: Inside the VL Big Boy
Here's a set of photos from that thread showing the metal assembly that connects the blowdown smoke unit to the fill hole, which of course is near the main set of control switches:
H
The tube is what connects the smoke outlet to the blowdown openings, as shown below:
I would think that unless you are using a needle tip or flexible dropper there's bound to be some risk of getting smoke fluid on the parts nearest the fill hole, which include control boards. But I have found that the smoke unit filler included with the VL BB avoids this.
(The blowdown feature on mine doesn't work as well as I hoped and I know other people have had the same problem, but that's a different subject.)
I wonder why the comment was made that "no one would overfil that" referring to the blowdown smoke unit. From all that I've read, that is the one smoke feature that does not seem to work satisfactorily in some owners' estimation. I can imagine someone thinking it might be low on fluid.
cjack posted:TrainingDave posted:If only there was a way to tell if there was fluid in the unit. Imagine if when the unit was turned on, and it put out smoke, this indicated that the unit had smoke fluid in it.
Now to stretch the imagination further, imagine if when the unit stopped putting out smoke, this indicated that the unit no longer had smoke fluid in it. At that point, it would almost be like the smoke unit telling you to add the amount of smoke fluid that the manual recommends!
Of course the above is just fairy tale logic and does not apply in a world full of needles and gauges and other devices that prevent us from having to think too hard.
Actually I think much of the over fill happens exactly when the smoke diminishes for some unknown issue just as I reported above where the batting was hard and crispy or when a liquid bubble occurs. I think the common tendency is to put some fluid in just to see if that's it. What other skills does one have? And of course, that makes it worse.
After some experience with these smoke units, one learns to do some diagnostics before resorting to the more fluid fix. Blow into the stack, turn the engine sound down and listen for the fan (Lionel has a reputation of failed fan motors), and of course on the very latest smoke units there is a diagnostic cab blinking light tell that helps.
So it's not as simple as "it's stopped smoking...put in some fluid". That's exactly the unhelpful advice we are trying to avoid.
No Sir. No where in the above did I say add fluid as a means of diagnosing why it isn't smoking.
If it is smoking normally, do not add fluid. When it stops smoking normally, add fluid to get smoke again.
When it is not smoking at all and you think there's an issue, obviously do not add fluid! I was stating how one can tell under normal operating conditions what "level" the smoke fluid is at. Simple, on or off, fluid or no fluid.
When you have a problem with your engine it is a different situation. Obviously.
Try not to warp someone's post around so much.
TrainingDave posted:If only there was a way to tell if there was fluid in the unit. Imagine if when the unit was turned on, and it put out smoke, this indicated that the unit had smoke fluid in it.
Now to stretch the imagination further, imagine if when the unit stopped putting out smoke, this indicated that the unit no longer had smoke fluid in it. At that point, it would almost be like the smoke unit telling you to add the amount of smoke fluid that the manual recommends!
Of course the above is just fairy tale logic and does not apply in a world full of needles and gauges and other devices that prevent us from having to think too hard.
Yeah, imagine that - waiting for the smoke to stop and then refilling. That would certainly keep the service guys busy replacing burnt out units. But then why let the facts confuse you, right?
Can't measure fluid needs because it soaks into the batting? Really? I built a very large humidor years ago and I add distilled water to soak into the Credo devices for humidity. How do I know when to add more water? When the hygrometer shows a 7-10% variance. That very accurate hygrometer cost me $3. Presumably, people buying commercially available humidors at say $1,000 - $2800 expect commensurate value, so they likely have systems superior to my very accurate $3 system.
Wonder if there are humidor chat boards where people argue on behalf of manufacturers that knowingly do not incorporate basic technology into incredibly pricey items and then stick the customer with the bill when the lack of that basic technology causes catastrophic failure. Hmmm....
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