PJB posted:Yeah, imagine that - waiting for the smoke to stop and then refilling. That would certainly keep the service guys busy replacing burnt out units. But then why let the facts confuse you, right?
For the hundredth time, the smoke units are not harmed when they are run dry. They do not burn out.
Peter,
So feel free to continue with patronizing comments, but I defy you or anyone else to argue - with actual facts and logic - that the manufacture provides any accurate way to know the fluid level.
That wasn't me. You must be confusing me with someone else. I never mentioned anything about a gauge or fluid level measurement.
As far as being patronizing, you need to look at the definition of the word: (from Wikipedia)
"treat with an apparent kindness that betrays a feeling of superiority.
| synonyms: | treat condescendingly, condescend to, look down on, talk down to, put down, treat like a child, treat with disdain |
I haven't been patronizing at all. I plainly said exactly what I meant to say:
jim pastorius posted:I was watching a young guy yesterday using his "vape" and he was blowing some really serious smoke !!! I told him I wished my Lionels smoked like that. Has anyone tried the vape fluid in a Lionel smoke unit ?? I really think with all the smoke outlets used on these new, expensive models- multiple stacks, whistles, cylinders and blow down, it is time to get a few of the old timers from Lionel, AF and Marx to design a unit that is designed to be used by the common man.
I thought about trying it, but a lot of the non nicotine fluid is pretty expensive. I looked at some of the e-sigs and it functions similar but different from the resistors in the fan driven smoke units. Lots of the ones people use here have had a hot coil and a very small wick for the liquid, but there is a huge compartment for the fluid below.
The problem with the "vape" fluid is that the key component is propylene glycol. It's hygroscopic, meaning it absorbs and holds in water (think engine coolant). Water isn't something we'd want in our smoke units.
On the other hand, the smoke fluid used by model train manufacturers is hydrophobic (like oil) - doesn't get along with water. Better for electronics and smoke units.
Barry Broskowitz posted:Peter,
So feel free to continue with patronizing comments, but I defy you or anyone else to argue - with actual facts and logic - that the manufacture provides any accurate way to know the fluid level.
That wasn't me. You must be confusing me with someone else. I never mentioned anything about a gauge or fluid level measurement.
As far as being patronizing, you need to look at the definition of the word: (from Wikipedia)
"treat with an apparent kindness that betrays a feeling of superiority.
"“She's a good-hearted girl,” he said in a patronizing voice"
synonyms: treat condescendingly, condescend to, look down on, talk down to, put down, treat like a child, treat with disdain I haven't been patronizing at all. I plainly said exactly what I meant to say:
- Many people don't take responsibility for their actions.
- Many people don't take the time to read documentation.
- Most problems in our hobby are self-inflicted. I even included my self in this one.
Barry, your surrounding comments about tilting at windmills and people on this forum came across as condescending. Maybe you don't notice the way you come across.
As I said, I think we are in violent agreement on many folks not taking responsibility. It is a societal issue and annoying. Unfortunately, some folks here seem to think that's limited to the consumer. I think it's a shared responsibility, especially when the manufacturer is aware of a recurring problem in its very expensive products, charges top dollar for supposedly newly designed products, and yet does nothing to put in simple technology to address the issue. I also noticed that no one seems to be able to back up their claims, with fact and logic, that the manufacturer provides a real method for knowing fluid level.
Marty Fitzhenry posted:How many guys on this post purchased this engine????
If it somehow helps validate my comments, I bought two of them. But, with respect, so what? You don't need to own this particular engine to have an opinion on a generally recognized design issue inherent in all engines that have smoke effects.
By the way - thanks for taking the time to post the detailed photos. Very helpful.
Marty Fitzhenry posted:I have worked on a ne BB smoke unit (broken wire) and never had an issue with any others. It is the best designed locomotive Lionel has ever made in my opinion. It opens up in seconds and very user friendly to work on. The sounds, 4 chuff, and operation are excellent.
I agree 100 % Marty. I love mine and last year it stole the show at our spring train show. Hope Lionel continues the VLBB design philosophy over into future offerings.
Rod
I consider my BB to be an engineering marvel but the smoke feature needs loving care. also again i would not suggest that you run the smoke unit dry unless of course the smoke feature is turned off.
Bob C.
quite a complex beast. is this really a toy?
Marty Fitzhenry posted:Relax. I for one do not care that you do not buy modern products. When this post ends, you can take over advice for people. I am sure you will do a great job.
Marty
Many of us here appreciate the advice that you have provided over the years. I hope you don't pack it up because of this one discussion. And for what it is worth, strictly from a legal/obligation perspective, your original point is correct. That being said, with premium priced products smart businesses make judgments about when to work with people. My original point (up around page two of this soap opera) is that given the cost of the repair to Lionel, is it worth ****ing off a customer? Is it worth this 5 page thread? Unless the locomotive was dropped down a flight of stairs and the original poster is a complete BS artist (and we have no idea what happened), Lionel should work with the man given that their cost is likely significantly cheaper than the quoted price. Frankly I am surprised because like you and many here I have had good experiences with Lionel and MTH, despite the many horror stories others have reported here. In fact the only place I hear about horror stories in this hobby is here, but that's a different story altogether.
All that being said, a quick story to illustrate the point from the car world because I recall you are a car guy too: my other hobby is cars, and a shop I use is owned by a man who used to be a BMW tech at a big dealership here in the DC area for many years. (I also read the owner's manual when I buy a new car, but I am in the minority, unfortunately.) One day we got talking about racing, and the conversation turned to over-rev, because he had an M3 in the shop that needed a new head and all the trimmings due to a missed shift. He relayed that BMW (and I am sure many other manufacturers are the same way if they compete in that premium segment) would often eat the cost of major repairs, including repairs relating to over-rev (which as you know can only happen when you miss a downshift, otherwise fuel cut off prevents over-rev on acceleration) because they didn't want to take a chance with the relationship with the customer. They wouldn't do it all the time, but they would do it a good deal of the time. A new head on an M3, even back in the late 90s early 2000s when he worked at the dealer, would easily run $5k-$6k all in. I had a similar issue on my wife's Mercedes -- my two boys broke the armrest in the back. This is the armrest in the middle that is large and has built in compartments and cup holders. Not cheap to replace but I don't like my stuff broken. I brought the car in, didn't make up stories and acknowledged what happened, and when I picked it up it was replaced at no charge. Car was about two years old. This type of thing is why I will likely buy another when the time comes.
When Lionel started this whole "vision line" campaign, they raised the bar on the product (they are terrific products) and they also raised the consumer's expectations. Part of getting people to pay the premium with this type of product involves meeting the customer's expectations even when, as you correctly point out, the customer is not 100% correct, or may even be wrong. You build that into the cost of the product and keep the relationship precisely because you don't want this kind of soap opera around a premium product.
Take care.
I will dare to make another comment, even though I don't own a Vision Line locomotive. Hopefully nobody will find it to be inappropriate.
Some controversy about whether smoke units can be run dry has arisen.
Here is a direct quote from the Lionel instruction book #71-1434-250 Vision Line Bigboy:
Stack Smoke
Load smoke fluid into each smoke stack. When adding
fluid DO NOT EXCEED 20 DROPS per stack as this can
cause your smoke unit to become oversaturated allowing leakage
onto the electronics. Note that operating your VISION Big Boy's
smoke unit without smoke fluid will cause damage to the heating
element. Add 20 drops initially and 10 to 20 thereafter, as required to maintain desired smoke.
correct- never run dry with smoke feature on
Bob C.
PJB,
your surrounding comments about tilting at windmills and people on this forum came across as condescending. Maybe you don't notice the way you come across.
You obviously don't understand "condescending", so no further discussion on that point is necessary.
Further, the literature reference to "tilting at windmills" was directed at Marty Fitzhenry, a close personal friend, whom I can assure you agreed with me.
As far as "people on the forum" are concerned, I never referenced any forum members. I spoke of people in general, as follows:
Fewer and fewer people take responsibility for their actions in our society, and fewer still pay attention to documentation.
I truly believe that most of the issues with our toy trains are owner-inflicted, myself included. We just hate to admit it! 
I stand by the above statement. However, if you take umbrage at my comments, perhaps you fit the above description.
Regardless, if you want to take shots at me, at least get your facts correct.
Ray
Awesome business case and sound logic. This thread demonstrates this. It would not be as long and passionate otherwise. Sure there must be owner accountability and sure Lionel has, whether they like it or not, put themselves in a different or elevated category of perceived customer care and expectation with an ultra high product. Obviously it's up to Lionel to determine this or not. This thread is further proof of Ray's hypothesis that Lionel will come out of this thread with some negativity of perceived customer expectation (real or not) potential damage is done. I'm sure this was not the original intention . As a conservative I'm greatly saddened by the lack of personal accountability in society, however a manufacturer does not have control of this. The manufacturer must out way a business plan and response that grows, sustains, and survives the business long term. Because of this there are gray areas of being ideological that have caused so much frustration on this thread.
Marty
You are a blessing, resource, and friend to all on this forum. Yes, this forum can be frustrating once in a while but we are all glad its here. I sometimes also get frustrated when the weekly mth service bashing, or modern command control bashing from the conventional crowd, or UP hate threads continue to spew with the same info. I just don't look at them. This all must be fully expected with a public forum.
Barry Broskowitz posted:PJB,
your surrounding comments about tilting at windmills and people on this forum came across as condescending. Maybe you don't notice the way you come across.
You obviously don't understand "condescending", so no further discussion on that point is necessary.
Further, the literature reference to "tilting at windmills" was directed at Marty Fitzhenry, a close personal friend, whom I can assure you agreed with me.
As far as "people on the forum" are concerned, I never referenced any forum members. I spoke of people in general, as follows:
Fewer and fewer people take responsibility for their actions in our society, and fewer still pay attention to documentation.
I truly believe that most of the issues with our toy trains are owner-inflicted, myself included. We just hate to admit it!
I stand by the above statement. However, if you take umbrage at my comments, perhaps you fit the above description.
Regardless, if you want to take shots at me, at least get your facts correct.
Barry, you've been helpful to me on several matters and are generally Johnny-on-the-spot with help, so I'll do my part to keep this civil.
So ... you make a comment - in the context of this thread - about people not taking responsibility for their actions, and you now claim your comment had no connection to this thread? Sure Barry. That's what psychologists refer to as "your truth."
Not going to dignify the rest of what you said with a reply.
C W Burfle posted:I will dare to make another comment, even though I don't own a Vision Line locomotive. Hopefully nobody will find it to be inappropriate.
Some controversy about whether smoke units can be run dry has arisen.
Here is a direct quote from the Lionel instruction book #71-1434-250 Vision Line Bigboy:Stack Smoke
Load smoke fluid into each smoke stack. When adding
fluid DO NOT EXCEED 20 DROPS per stack as this can
cause your smoke unit to become oversaturated allowing leakage
onto the electronics. Note that operating your VISION Big Boy's
smoke unit without smoke fluid will cause damage to the heating
element. Add 20 drops initially and 10 to 20 thereafter, as required to maintain desired smoke.
CW - for once we agree. Lol
But why bother? It's like trying to tilt at windmills - just ask Barry - as some people (are you listening TrainingDave?) know better than what the facts would have you believe. Smoke units that are empty and on are no problem at all.
By the way, why didn't you print the page from the manual that we need to READ and all our problems will be solved about how to know the fluid level? Oh yeah, they deleted that page from the manual - actually all manuals - before they went to print.
On a serious note (not directed at you CW), this mud-slinging isn't serving any purpose other than diverting. CW's reprint of the manual is helpful and, for those who care, factual. Can we get the discussion back on track, which is why an obvious design defect isn't being addressed by the manufacturers (or is it and we are unaware?) either via design upgrade or at least warranty cover? It is really where we should be focusing.
So maybe we ought to close this seemingly pointless debate and all move on with our lives? 
None of this banter is going to fix or change anything anyway; and I am not trying to offend anyone or take issue with anything that has been said, OK?
Rod
PJB,
you make a comment - in the context of this thread - about people not taking responsibility for their actions, and you now claim your comment had no connection to this thread?
Again, my comments...
Fewer and fewer people take responsibility for their actions in our society, and fewer still pay attention to documentation.
I truly believe that most of the issues with our toy trains are owner-inflicted, myself included. We just hate to admit it!
... were general.
However, if you took them personally, that sounds to me like a personal problem on your part.
...this mud-slinging isn't serving any purpose other than diverting.
I agree. So why do you continue to sling mud?
Rod,
So maybe we ought to close this seemingly pointless debate and all move on with our lives? None of this banter is going to fix or change anything anyway; and I am not trying to offend anyone or take issue with anything that has been said, OK?
Sounds like a great idea! I second that motion!
Took my pooch to the vet this AM and while there I begged a syringe from him. Told him it was for smoke fluid for my Lionel engines. Now I have to figure how much is 10-20 drops. scientific !!
Now I have to figure how much is 10-20 drops.
LOL, a quick web search reveals that there are 20 drops to a Cubic Centimeter. I checked several random sites, and the answer was consistent.
Well, I did it differently !! 20 drops = .5 on the syringe so I went with that. When I was selling industrial cleaning compounds(food plants) I checked for PH levels all the time plus Cl2 levels -adding drops to the break point. I really don't think counting drops in to a $2 grand loco is a very user friendly way to do it. Maybe on an old PW Lionel like I have. There really should be a better way, I think.
Again, how many people on this post own the engine???
What difference does it make ?? Anyone can have an opinion but there doesn't have to be name calling and derogatory remarks made.
Marty Fitzhenry posted:Again, how many people on this post own the engine???
Hi Marty,
Not sure if you saw my earlier post, but for what it's worth, I own two VLBBs. Again, and with respect, what does that matter? Anyone with a toy locomotive that has steam effects has the exact same standing to chime in. The issue is across the board - locomotives do not tell you the fluid level. And no matter how many times I read the manual, it will not answer that question.
Marty Fitzhenry posted:Again, how many people on this post own the engine???
If you are asking for a poll I own one; some other people who've posted here own more than one.
Marty Fitzhenry posted:Here is the BB layout to end this. Orange circle far right is the twin stack main smoke unit. The yellow circle in the middle is the whistle smoke. Way back left in green is the closest board. It is the RS Lite sound board. In photo 2 you will see the main board (RCMC) located under the control switches.
the one area that is highly susceptible to smoke fluid is the rcmc board that caused mine to fail due to smoke fluid getting on it. I had no spills from filling it so since repaired I found a new friend it came with a legacy engine and its a simplistic device called a funnel I use it to fill all smoke units on big boy and no more than 20 drops at first fill after that 10 drops reason 20 at first it might be a week a month or more prior to running my BB!
I do wonder seeing that the fill hole diverts the smoke fluid about 3/4" away to smoke fluid chamber exactly how did the smoke fluid find its way back to that rcmc board?? that has me stymied.
hopefully others will heed the advice from experts here I thank you all.
I own the BB too so did my wallet 
Thanks guys. StPaul, I do not have that answer. Any liquid has a mind of it's own. Those of us who live in the cold/snow weather areas know what happens with ice dams. Where water drips into the house is not always the direct point of entry. It could be 20-40 feet away from where it shows up. To follow liquid is not all that easy. It can be as simple as dripping on a wire and it can start it's run.
I have had many emails after this post started and everyone has a different twist on what is going on. I apologize if I made your bad guy list. I answered things as a tech who works on engines. A great number of engines. You paid the money, you can do it whatever you want. Charles Ro sells a lot of engines and everyone who stepped up seems thrilled with this. Aside from the VL Hudson, I feel this is the engine to have for the long run.
The Big Boy I opened up for work and pictures had me blown away with the great design, and board layout. A few screws and done. Very easy.
Good luck and have fun.
StPaul posted:the one area that is highly susceptible to smoke fluid is the rcmc board that caused mine to fail due to smoke fluid getting on it . . .
I do wonder seeing that the fill hole diverts the smoke fluid about 3/4" away to smoke fluid chamber exactly how did the smoke fluid find its way back to that rcmc board?? that has me stymied.
The fill hole is part of an assembly that is screwed together. There's no guarantee that the assembly won't leak or that any overspill at the fill hole itself won't get on to the electronics below if the owner/operator is putting a lot of smoke fluid in at one time. I think it is very easy to overfill any late model Lionel smoke unit that I have actually taken apart and that includes VL steam and diesel.
I have no way of knowing how far Lionel tested this design (the VL BB blowdown smoke unit and related parts) before producing the model. Once I saw it revealed in Alex M's thread referred to above I was very concerned about the potential for a SNAFU. However my belief (and it's only that) is that Lionel wouldn't decline a warranty claim unless the amount of smoke fluid found on the control board(s) was excessive.
P.S. On the rare occasions that I have shipped models anywhere for servicing I have ensured that the smoke units are as dry as possible - usually by turning them upside down over a paper towel to see if anything comes out of the smoke apertures. In transit any excess could get spread around just about anywhere inside the engine because you cannot expect the model to remain upright still less not be thrown with some force in the loading processes.
Wow!
I just read this thread, and will keep non-relevant comments (to the OP's topic) to myself.
I do own a VL BB, I really like it, and so have everyone of my guests who have seen it.
Like the OP, I struggle with when to add fluid, and when I do, I add 10 drops at a time. The problem is, when to add? Sometimes it smokes a lot, sometimes not so much.
One thing I learned (reading this thread) is that the smoke unit (wadding and heating element) will not be damaged if they run dry. At least this is what I gathered from reading some of the posts.
Relevant questions, I think:
1. How much smoke (time-wise) does a drop or fluid make? This wouldn't have to be precise. For instance, "one drop of fluid at maximum smoke level should produce smoke for 30 to 45 seconds, while the locomotive is running," or whatever the real duration time is. This would be helpful.
2. At what rate does the smoke fluid evaporate when the locomotive is not running. If it sat for one week without running, should fluid be added, regardless? What if it sat for one month? Or should we run it first to see if any smoke is produced after it sat for a while without running? Of course, now we have to define "a while".
3. Wouldn't it be nice if there were a humidity sensor inserted in the wadding, with its output interpreted by the electronics, which would announce "time to add smoke fluid" as part of the crew talk repertoire when the wadding became too dry?
Alex
All these new whiz bang new features and you still add and measure smoke fluid like on the first Lionels !! How long ago ? 60 yrs ? Nothing wrong with that ? And you are correct-fluids have a mind of there own when going places.
Well, without turning this into a comedy, and with no intent to further raise any hackles, I see the thread as raising more questions than answers.
It has been suggested:
1/ Running dry is not harmful. WHAT!!! 
This is directly contradicted by the VLBB manual here quoted. Why is a poster repeatedly insisting that running dry is not harmful? And those crusty, non absorbent, burnt wicks people have hauled out of locomotives when the smoke unit was not producing smoke? (Let's not even talk of the videos with actual flames shooting out the stacks!) I re-paste from the manual, already here quoted: "Note that operating your VISION Big Boy's smoke unit without smoke fluid will cause damage to the heating element."
2/ Inverting locomotive to drain excess fluid if shipping is necessary. Seems a certain way to have fluid run onto the boiler interior walls and then dripping any and everywhere?
3/ Drying a unit for shipping with pipe cleaners? Worth a try but is that really going to work? Seems to me only if you can get the pipe cleaner to bend and twist enough to actually get into the fluid reservoir. And, of course, there really should not be any fluid in there anyhow . . . not at any time. It should all be absorbed in the wicking within a minute or so after filling.
Is it possible that a bubble could form and cause the fluid to over flow the fill area just under the shell and soak the pc board...even though the customer only put in a total of 20 drops?
TrainingDave posted:PJB posted:Yeah, imagine that - waiting for the smoke to stop and then refilling. That would certainly keep the service guys busy replacing burnt out units. But then why let the facts confuse you, right?
For the hundredth time, the smoke units are not harmed when they are run dry. They do not burn out.
NOT according to the owners manual that Lionel supplies with these locomotives. Run that baby DRY and send it to Lionel under warranty when it DOES burn out, bet they DON'T warranty repair it.
Doug
challenger3980 posted:TrainingDave posted:PJB posted:Yeah, imagine that - waiting for the smoke to stop and then refilling. That would certainly keep the service guys busy replacing burnt out units. But then why let the facts confuse you, right?
For the hundredth time, the smoke units are not harmed when they are run dry. They do not burn out.
NOT according to the owners manual that Lionel supplies with these locomotives. Run that baby DRY and send it to Lionel under warranty when it DOES burn out, bet they DON'T warranty repair it.
Doug
Hmm,
That's Right! I thought I had read that somewhere, more than once, and in more that one owner's manual - -
So I have to retract what I said earlier, "One thing I learned (reading this thread) is that the smoke unit (wadding and heating element) will not be damaged if they run dry. At least this is what I gathered from reading some of the posts." if I am to believe the manual - correct?
Here is the page from the subject locomotive:
Alex
Ah ha! Note the sentence that says to add smoke fluid one drop at a time in the Blow Down unit to prevent clogging. That makes me believe that there could be a bubble causing overflow even though the quantity is not exceeded. Lionel may have experienced that, resulting in the warning in the manual.
But...it's kind of like a built in issue. Still, not enough reason to give the customer a break?
Well !! If they ever get the smoke thing squared away I might buy one. Talk about covering your butt - not toooo much and don't run it dry but count the drops. Too much. And do this with your trusty 2 cent eye dropper.
C W Burfle posted:
Some controversy about whether smoke units can be run dry has arisen.
Here is a direct quote from the Lionel instruction book #71-1434-250 Vision Line Bigboy:Stack Smoke
Note that operating your VISION Big Boy's
smoke unit without smoke fluid will cause damage to the heating
element.
I have seen that Atlas O has the following feature listed for its diesels. If running low on fluid doesn't create a problem, they wouldn't have bothered to add this feature.
I use pipe cleaners to assess the wetness of the smoke unit while in service. never tried it for draining
Bob C.
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