What are the most detailed pieces of rolling stock made by Lionel and Mth?

Almost all Lionel PS-1, PS-2, PS-4, PS-5 cars...

Lionels scale steel sided reefers from mid 2000's (?)  to the present.  Too many to list, and more are offered every year.

Well, "fine scale" is generally accepted to mean something very different from your description. Probably another conversation.

The features listed above would include almost everything above a mid-range price point from all the manufacturers. Most of those features are now the rule, not the exception.

Here is one recently acquired example that I feel is NOT "very detailed"

Here is an example of what I would define as "very detailed"

Sorry if the pics are not real clear

The Northern Pacific is molded-in detail

The Nickel Plate is seperately applied

I'm confused.  I believed that "Fine" scale meant ACTUAL TRUE scale like Proto 48.

John C. posted:

I'm confused.  I believed that "Fine" scale meant ACTUAL TRUE scale like Proto 48.

Agreed.  Big honkin' truck mounted couplers and deep flanges are not "fine scale."

This is an example of fine scale: (Ain't mine, purloined the image using Google.  My modeling is nowhere this good...)

Rusty

Finescale in typical british practice refers to the track and wheels as I have heard it.    "Coarse" standards much like our Lionel and MTH with Pizza cutter wheel flanges and the track and switches have over size rail, wide tolerances at frogs and such, and sharp curves.

Finescale means something akin to our 2-rail O or perhaps as fine as P-48.   The Track is very well scaled, tolerances are very fine (hence the name) and the curves would be wider.

In a fine scale model all, or at least many, visible attributes of the real train are scaled down into the model. When also the running gear and wheel profile are exactly scaled, these models are very sensitive to the type of track they run on, if run at all. Sometimes these trains spend their life being admired in glass cases.

Regards

Fred

justakid posted:

D500 posted:

Well, "fine scale" is generally accepted to mean something very different from your description.

I am defining "fine scale" as it might apply in this forum category .

Please, don't do that.

This hobby suffers from jargon which is imprecise to the point of being arbitrary - see the topics on "Semi-scale," or the evolution of "Pullmor." Or the fact that you can get O27 track in 54 inch diameter.

More than annoying the old hands, they confuse new hobbyists. We don't need more words with definitions which change based on the context. 

everything.....

SIRT posted:

Forum was on - Hi-Rail, O27 and Traditional 

Seems he might be a newbie by his choice of description, no need to be confused or over complicate things. Lets get back to what he really meant.

Not a newbie...and by no means any kind of expert. Have enjoyed this hobby since 1980.

Bought, sold, cherished many  models by various mfgs. I'm now enjoying some of the very detailed rolling stock available on the secondary market. Thought it might be good if there was a list of very detailed rolling stock for every one to enjoy collecting or running. That was my intention.

The Lionel aluminum Centerflow hoppers are pretty nice.  They have separate grabs, etched see-through walkways, and nice details on the hopper gates.  They used to only be available as 4-bay hoppers, but now I see them in the more common 3-bay variety.  Just as in your example with the two Lionel boxcars above, there are lots of the traditional plastic Lionel Centerflow cars with plastic walkways and cast on grabs.

Similarly, the Lionel cylindrical covered hoppers include the same details as above.  It's just an earlier era car.

Pictures of both types can be found on this OGR thread.

Jim

SIRT posted:

Sorry, wasn't sure of your time in the hobby.  

Answer - both. You will have to check the later MTH freight car offerings as several improvements have been incorporated. See my photo site link below for ALL the industries detailed cars. Lately it looks like one supplier is making cars for all 3 suppliers with slight variations to avoid copyright issues. I have to wonder?

WOW!

Now we know what aspect of this great hobby you excell in!

Is it real or is it weathered by SIRT!

Thank you for your link I look forward to more of your artistic skills.

A big problem in our hobby is being able to know when an item is very detailed. Once a very detailed item hits the market..they sell out fast. 

I've seen Railking items that were very detailed, but was recently a little disappointed when I got my pre-ordered Silver River Fruit billboard reefer 30-78192.

REALLY Great graphics, diecast coupler and trucks.

NO

add-on details. Everything is cast-in. 

They never promised any add-on detail in the catalogue but at $50 per car, I hoped ...maybe?  

Standard O, O scale, Legacy, 027, LionScale ?

Premiere, Railking Imperial, RailKing,Railking scale?

Catalogues showing artist renderings, or HO models.

It is Really hard to sort through what is basic and what is very detailed until you see it or someone tells you.

With less and less brick and mortar retailers , and vendors at train shows prohibited by mfg from bringing newly shipped inventory to sell at shows, it's hard to know.

IMHO the prettiest cars ever offered by MTH are the 64' Woodsided passenger cars. I traded three Strasburg for the same in N&W livery. Regardless of the livery, they are beautiful.

Fine scale looks great but IMO, is impractical on most layouts. Scale wheels, trucks and couplers are far smaller than O gauge. This makes running less forgiving on tighter curves and perfect level track is necessary to prevent derailing. It can be done but it takes you back to the risk vs reward scenerio. If hobbyists want detail then the Legacy scale Hudson has it.

Interesting thread. I would like to add the Lionel die-cast 2 bay hoppers as nicely detailed models but not fine scale in any means. 

I am glad O gauge has evolved to more a detailed scale look. With out this evolution, I believe the O gauge hobby would have died off. 

Lionel did a fantastic job on the new Mill gondolas

Both MTH and Lionel are nicely detailed plastic or diecast models but not in any way considered 'fine scale' - period. 'Fine scale' modeling is generally practiced by model train craftsman in tis country who've generally been in the hobby for many years and appreciate both attention to detail and fidelity of prototype scale. Generally Europeans and especially British model train enthusiasts are very much into 'fine scale' modeling.

Great discussion fellas.

 It’s all good, from the domestic O scale builds from Midwest Model Works, Kohs, and Key to Fulgurex and Euro-Modelle hand builds in Europe and Gene Diemling P48 builds with Lee Turner weathering to the 1947 GG1 and my dads 1952 Scout set. I love it all. 

justakid posted:

nickaix posted:

More than annoying the old hands, they confuse new hobbyists. We don't need more words with definitions which change based on the context. 

Good point and well understood. 

Now I would venture what should we call the more finely detailed rolling stock?

 

Well, I guess I have proved the adage that it is always easier to complain...

Probably, it is just best to say exactly what you want...and I see you have changed the thread title to do just that.

Ever since the '70s, Lionel has used "Standard-O" to describe their top-of-the-line, 1:48 scale pieces. The trouble is, top of the line is a moving target. The first car you posted is a Std-O car from the late 90s, and was at the top of Lionel's line at that time. It doesn't hold up well today. So, if buying Lionel marked Standard-O, you need to know when the car was made. A good rule of thumb is to avoid anything with a 17*** number, since most of these were made pre-2000 and are therefore less detailed.

I notice that the last couple of catalogues have dropped the "Standard" designation, and now just distinguish "O scale" from "Traditional". I suspect that everything in "O scale" should be acceptable to you, with the exception of the LionScale line. Those are mostly made from older Weaver molds, and do not have the same level of added detail. Interestingly, the ACF 3 bay covered hoppers in this year's LionScale line are Lionel's own models; when these were introduced in the late '80s, they were considered Standard-O. But they would not be good enough for that category today, so they have been moved down to LionScale.

You will even see a former Std-O car offered in a Traditional line set from time to time. But you can bet that, if it is in that set, it is because it is no longer state of the art, so pass it by. MTH has done this too, as you found out, with some of their former high-end O scale product being reincarnated as RailKing.

Hope that helps some!

Also, what may be of interest to many of us, "what are the most detailed semi-scale (O27) products?"

I've been impressed with the details on my MTH semi-scale heavyweight and streamlined passenger cars. Also, K-Line "Streamliners" passenger cars.

Gilly@N&W posted:

IMHO the prettiest cars ever offered by MTH are the 64' Woodsided passenger cars. I traded three Strasburg for the same in N&W livery. Regardless of the livery, they are beautiful.

 

Totally agree. I have a set of New York and New England that I run behind a Williams/Bachmann NYC  Baldwin 4-6-0 (from the Lake Shore Limited set).

Great combination for not a lot of money.

I personally like the Lionel PS-1,2,4,5 cars, the 57' mechanical reefers, and the ACF aluminum hoppers. They all have the detail you are looking for.

"A good rule of thumb is to avoid anything with a 17*** number, since most of these were made pre-2000 and are therefore less detailed"

By NICKAIX

Thank you for your post, it's discoveries like this that help to avoid disappointment and costly mistakes.

I bought the Northern Pacific for about $30 (it looked like it had add on detail in the pics). It pales in comparison to the Nickel Plate which was $45, well worth the extra $15.

First a comment, if you are going to use terminology that is generally accepted and used in the hobby, you should not redefine the meaning for a forum thread, in my opinion, respectfully.

Second as the Lionel and MTH cars, there are real treasures out there, again in my opinion. 

From Lionel, all the PS series are great, especially the Gondola and the Flatcar.    Another really nice one I have found is the PRR GLA Hopper.     This is a very nice model for the price of a PRR GLA.    There is also a sleeper I stumbled onto recently.    I don't know what the prototype is, but there is a 40ft flatcar that is just as detailed as the PS-4 flatcar.    Basically a shortened version.    These are all cars I have.   I have looked at the ACF Stock car and it looks pretty nice too.

From MTH, the PRR R50b reefer (do you see a trend here), is fantastic.   It is nicer than some brass models of this car I have seen.    Another great MTH car is the Fishbelly hopper.    This is very similar to the Atlas O version, but I think the details are sharper on the injection molded plastic shell than the diecast ATlas shell.    Also the MTH is much lighter and makes it easy to run longer trains.    the Atlas O ones I had weighed 2 lbs apiece!    I think the MTH one is about half that.  

Rusty Traque posted:

John C. posted:

I'm confused.  I believed that "Fine" scale meant ACTUAL TRUE scale like Proto 48.

Agreed.  Big honkin' truck mounted couplers and deep flanges are not "fine scale."

This is an example of fine scale: (Ain't mine, purloined the image using Google.  My modeling is nowhere this good...)

Rusty

So would these be considered "fine scale?"