Hello everyone, I’m just posting the subject question to get some insight on Madison Passenger cars. Thanks - MARSHELANGELO.
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Simple...one is a toy, a fabrication of imagination, and the other is a model of a real world prototype...
Madison is the term Lionel applied to Heavyweight cars. The correct term is Heavyweight, and it's a real world prototype.
Here's a whole thread on how the name came into use: https://ogrforum.com/...eight-passenger-cars
Actually, Madison is the name for heavyweights Williams reproduced in the 60’s. The original Lionel cars were called Passenger cars or Pullman’s. Madison was one of the car names... but collectors in the early days called them Irvington cars. When Williams marketed their knockoffs, they sold them as Madison cars. Lionel only began calling them that after the name stuck with the target audience.
Jon 
Thanks a lot guys, I have always seen the Madison name with Trains but didn’t know the history behind the name and I’ve recently been looking at some sets with the “Madison” name attached and I didn’t want to purchase cars that were O-27 because I thought Madison cars were smaller. Thanks again
I could be wrong but I believe the 'Madison' or 'Irvington' cars are not scale. They are 15" coupler to coupler.
Bill is right. Anything marketed as a "Madison" car is going to be undersized in all dimensions. On mine, the body is 14" long. There is also a "Baby Madison" which is about 1 1/2" shorter than the Madison cars. Both types make good companions for Lionel's undersized "traditional" steam locos.
I wouldn't say the Madison cars have no prototype. By the '40s (when the original Irvington / Madison cars were tooled) Lionel was making an effort to produce realistic looking trains. No doubt they were looking at a real clerestory-type heavyweight car during the design process, something that could be seen at Penn Station or Grand Central. But, yes, what they came up with was severely compromised in size and detail. And the modern versions have been painted for many different lines, without any attempt to offer railroad-specific accuracy. "Madisons" will not be acceptable to a scale modeler.
Just remember that there WERE 60' passenger cars, especially head-end types, that these cars reflect pretty well. The Lionel/Williams version suffer more from being shorter in height and narrower than the prototypes rather than being too short in length. And Walthers had a line of kits that are the same length but taller and wider.
It is important to remember that not all passenger cars were 85' long. Folks tend to overgeneralize.
Wow, I guess my assumptions and observations weren’t too far off base. Thanks again everyone, my search for the correct cars continue on.
If someone comes up with an "o" gauge (hi-wheel) proper 85'er. Please let me know. I want to make a 10 car unit painted in deep gloss black.
I plan to make a Devil Train. From the song "Long Black Train". I also plan to use an AC-9 for the head. I will have it repainted to use the road name "**** Express" and number "666". The letters will be in the same blackish gray that the pigs use on there cars. To skirt the law about their cars being marked units.
I do need to find a devil in 1:48 scale to do the driving. And 2 demons to be the brakeman and fireman.
I have never seen someone model it yet and I want to be the first. To bad MTH went out. I would have loved to have an AC-9 from them. I love the detail and girth of a Williams car. I just wish it was full scale.
Thanks, Emily Shelton
A proper reply for thread grave digging. 😃
Well, tell us what look you’re going for. What size engine are you preferring to run? Any special road name?
And, thanks for your service
Alan
The Madison style passenger car by Mth in the Purple Boxes were scale or close to scale ! I believe they are 70' , I never measured them when I had a set in early 2000's.
I have the 60' Madison style by Mth in Railking Boxes ! They run great !
https://ogrforum.com/...7#158251951958904547
What do you mean?
https://ogrforum.com/...8#158251951959037958
Alan, an AC-9 is a class of locomotive. A 2-8-8-4 configuration. The road name I want doesn't exist. I am custom painting it. SP originally bought them.
To get full scale cars they would have to be 21" cars. Most of the cars out there that are marketed as scale cars are 18" and are close enough. The 21" cars are harder to find and much more expensive. You can find just about anything in 18" cars, both heavyweights and streamlined. There are many things in the three rail world that are confusing when it comes to sizes, proportions and terminology.
When it comes to understanding the correct scale for passenger cars, I always encourage people to do research on the prototypes they model. Builders and railroad practice varied greatly, especially during the steel car or heavyweight era as there were more builders.
For heavyweight cars the maximum length was typically 80'. Some special service cars were longer, but they were not common. All Pullman heavyweight sleepers built in the 20th century were 80' cars as were most other cars built by the Pullman Standard company during that era. Coaches varied in length based on builder anywhere from 80' to 60' for mainline roads. Typically, cars under 80' served in commuter service with 72' being a common size as well as 64' and 60' on some roads. Head end cars such as RPOs and baggage cars tended to be shorter, but again it pays to do some research.
In the streamline era, 85' was the most common size starting in the late 30' and it is still the standard car length on the majority of passenger cars built today. Again, head end cars were sometimes shorter and there are always exceptions. SP's three-unit diner and articulated coaches from the Coast Daylight come to mind as examples of exceptions.
Just my opinion, but I prefer my passenger cars to be the correct length to match the prototypes they represented. I have a fleet well over 100 scale passenger cars in O and the lengths vary based on the real trains they represent. This is nothing new for me. When I got my first Athearn HO blue box passenger car kits at age 12 they looked too short compared to the trains that ran by my house every day. By 14 I started to replace them with correct scale length cars.
Actually Williams made both 15" and 20" inch heavyweight (clerestory) cars in full scale dimensions. Not a lot of detail with colorized silhouettes, but they made them and they are likely much cheaper than other scale models. Just check the auction site or Trainworld may still have some.
@bigboy25 posted:@GG1 4877 / Jonathan, am I correct in understanding that GGD is the only manufacturer to make 80' heavyweight cars? I haven't seen that Lionel/MTH/Atlas have made any in that 21" size. They all seem to be the 18" size.
GGD is the most recent manufacturer to offer 80' heavyweight cars. I currently have 28 GGD heavyweights. Prices vary widely on them, but they can be found for under $100 with some patience. I feel they are a good value at under $125.00 although some of the harder to find cars are certainly worth more. They originally retailed for $125 - $150 based on when they were produced.
As mentioned by Rdg Fan, Williams made 20" heavyweight cars briefly. They had colored window silhouettes but overall are not bad looking cars. I had an opportunity to purchase the C&NW set a few years back at auction but for some reason I passed. I recall there being 6 road including UP Two Tone Gray, NYC, PRR, SP, and Southern??? I need to dig out my 1989 Catalog to verify that.
Also, often overlooked, but the old Walthers kits were available with scale wheels and with hi-rail wheels. They came as kits which are fun to build, but not easy until you've done a few. The built ones vary in quality based on the original builder, but they can be found for decent prices. I have around 15 80' Walthers cars and some shorter ones mostly with scale wheels.
Here's another thread that mentions the Williams 2700 Series 80' Heavyweights, with quite a bit of detail:
Williams Madison Coaches | Bill DeBrooke
Jonathan, the catalog/flyer was from 1990. You can see the precise page in the above thread.
Since then I've found the U.P. set (2701) online and got it for a fairly good price. Very nice detail, but they do have window silhouettes instead of finished interiors and populated seats.
Mike
Since then I've found the U.P. set (2701) online and got it for a fairly good price. Very nice detail, but they do have window silhouettes instead of finished interiors and populated seats.
Mike
I have one of the U.P. coaches. I haven't seen any other cars in the set other than a baggage and I think it had round windows on the doors. It doesn't match my other cars, but it is nice and the full color silhouettes are nicer than the black ones. These are the only cars I ever came across with the color silhouettes. I actually like them, it saves lots of money filling up the cars.
For what it's worth, there are three sets of the Williams UP 80' cars on that auction site now. One is going currently for a very reasonable price. The has a baggage car, three coaches, and an observation.
I love the different nomenclature that manufactures use. Lionel calls their "scale" cars 18", which scales out to 72'. MTH calls their "scale" cars 70 footers, because they are only 17.5" in length. They are both consistent in these labels. Madison cars can be anywhere from 12.5" to 16", with the longer ones maybe a good stand-in for commuter cars. My guess is the 17.5"/18" cars would be what the OP (Greg) is looking for in a heavyweight car. I personally do not mix Lionel and MTH because of the size difference, but as they say it is your railroad.
While off subject a bit, in the real word for passenger cars many roads like the PRR and SP used the length of the passenger compartment (measured between the inside bulkheads) as their designation. For example, the PRR's heavyweight P70 coach had a 70' passenger compartment with 5' platforms at each end, making them 80' long or 20" in O. However, their B70 baggage cars were actually 70' long because they did not have the end platforms. Same for the PRR's MP54 which had a 54' passenger compartment but were 64.5' long. GGD's P70 and most other heavyweight cars are 20". "60' Herriman" cars are scale 70' over couplers, and GGD's model is a little over 17" long making them a good scale detailed car for 3-rail layouts.
For lightweight cars, the PRR changed their class designation to the length of the car. So a P85 was 85' long. These cars should be 21.25" long in O, which is close to Lionel's newer 21" cars. I assume GGD's lightweight cars are close to 21" but their web site doesn't give sizes.
If you go to the link in Mike's post, you will see that the Williams cars are 19", or a scale 76'.
@Emily Shelton posted:If someone comes up with an "o" gauge (hi-wheel) proper 85'er. Please let me know. I want to make a 10 car unit painted in deep gloss black.
I plan to make a Devil Train. From the song "Long Black Train". I also plan to use an AC-9 for the head. I will have it repainted to use the road name "**** Express" and number "666". The letters will be in the same blackish gray that the pigs use on there cars. To skirt the law about their cars being marked units.
I do need to find a devil in 1:48 scale to do the driving. And 2 demons to be the brakeman and fireman.
I have never seen someone model it yet and I want to be the first. To bad MTH went out. I would have loved to have an AC-9 from them. I love the detail and girth of a Williams car. I just wish it was full scale.
Thanks, Emily Shelton
Emily, Could you bash two heavyweight cars to the length you desire? Make the floor by joining a piece of the donor floor into a halved floor on the project car. Or cut each floor so the total length suits your need. A piece on top or below the floor for strength and you are on your way. John
