What is the future of the Lionel PWC and CC series items?

This could be a false perception on my part, but I was always under the impression that Lionel made these sets for folks to be able to run a valueable set without spending the money on an original or devaluing their original set. I think the mindset of "pure" collecting has diminished the last few years and nobody really cares about these sets. If these sets had been made in the 70's or 80's they may have been more sucsessful. The purist don't want them and  for the average operator they are low on any priority list

I am a big fan of the TMCC PWC sets.  Semi scale makes more sense to me on my size layout and I like the classic looks and operating cars.  They were a good value as well.  I have 6 sets and love them all.

Ten years from now when many of us 'older' fellas who have the actual childhood memories of genuine postwar trains have gone...

Why do you take it for granted that "you older fellas" are the only ones who like postwar semi-scale?

I was always under the impression that Lionel made these sets for folks to be able to run a valuable set without spending the money on an original or devaluing their original set.

Why?  Wouldn't it make more sense to assume that they're simply aimed at those who like postwar-style semi-scale?

Not everyone is a scale hi-railer.

IMHO, nobody can accurately predict future interest in any toy trains, or their value.  I buy trains that to enjoy owning them, and have no expectation on resale value.

I was mainly thinking of those of us who are motivated by the 'nostalgia' factor. Certainly many others like the trains for what they are!

Didn't Lionel promote these trains this way as in the second quote above? Seems I've seen this in their own ads...

I am a fan of the CC, because of the nostalgia factor.

I do understand, however, the torch is being passed to a new generation, with an emphasis on scale.

But, if you look at the old TCA mags. you see a similar transition from pre-war standard gauge to the then new kid on the block, the post war era.

However, that having been said, now decades later, I too like standard gauge. Not to mention the new standard gauge items coming out. So, what is old becomes new again.

The underlying impulse is: toy trains rock. That will  not change. I like them all.

Mark

Cheap immitations of anything find their way to obscurity.  Besides, hasn't LIONEL and MTH reproduced just about everything they can???  I have just about everything I want in POSTWAR.  I'm not paying close to $100 a car for MODERN.  And I am waiting for MTH/LCT to learn how to paint their trains before I buy more of them.  Original Standard Gauge is an easier/cheaper target right now.  SIGNED, A Collector Who Has Run Out of Things To Buy!!!

The quality of the originals was great! When you received one as a gift, or bought one with your hard earned cash, you knew that you something valuable that you could cherish for a lifetime. I have a few CC's and they just don't compare. My CC GG1 is ok, but the Madison cars are chintzy! But then again I can't by a 2332 and original Madison cars for the price that I paid for the CC's. Too bad.

Valid sentiments of a collector. Operators, like myself,  can be motivated by nostalgia as well. For me its more about value. Seeing a modern DC powered replica controlled by TMCC pulling a train of post war or PW replica cars evokes the same memories as the originals for fewer dollars and headaches.

Pete

I'm with FlyBoy on this one. Always wanted those madison cars.

and a berk would also be great. So that CC set is coming.

I run at a lot of shows and ya never know when something

will happen. If it does, I'm not out a fortune.

So when you can't afford both, go with what you can and

enjoy that one.

While I love the new features and TMCC/sounds, if I want something postwar "styled", I actually want an original.  That's why I don't have too many original's

I think the future is bright for the Conventional Classics.  If they can make a bullet proof electronic e-unit and simple reliable sound board the items can't be beat. I bought a sealed in the box service station set from 2000. The Signalsounds board was dead. If they can make conventional trains with electronics that can last 15-20 years with or without use and have replacement parts available they will have many winners.

I love both the CC and especially the PWC series. The originals were becoming too high priced, so these repros give you a chance to own and operate. It always seems to work that way in a hobby. Look at the Rio Grande snowplow or AEC switcher, way too high priced to be a an everyday piece, they become shelf queens, because of their rarity. This also gives you a chance to own one for reasonable prices when issued, and fill the 'I always wanted that'. The strange thing is that even these repros become coveted after a while. This also works to the benefit of the manufacturer because there is a market for them. Sometimes they go overboard and start to make them in different colors, then it gets crazy. MTH also has reissued a Subway Set because of demand in the market.

My favorite PWC TMCC set is the Lionel Lines #773 Hudson set.  It came with 7 cars-three of them operating cars-a poultry dispatch, a milk car with platform and a cattle car with accessory platform.  Great value and fun factor.  The Hudson is a beauty, with the best, husky, deep throated whistle I've heard and Railsounds 5 sound package.  I wouldn't trade my Hudson for a vision in a million years.  I've run both.  I like mine better,  It screams Simple Elegance---and Power.  The vision is a sissy next to my guy.  My next favorite is the Wabash F3 set.  Then the Marines Missile Launch set.  That's just flat out fun.   

I have the 1959 Santa Fe freight set.  For the (discounted) price you can't beat it, and I haven't had any issues.  The paint and decals are nicer than postwar originals, and the digital horn is simple and reliable.  I think we paid about $250 brand new.  Plan B was a pair of WBB FA2 Alcos and buy the cars separately, which would have cost more and we wouldn't have had the on-demand digital horn.  I think these sets will do well in the future - if you weren't around in 1959, it's as close as you're going to get.

While the PWC and CC stuff is nice, it still ain't postwar. 

I look at my PWC and CC stuff and what I see is a very nice reproduction of the trains of my youth. 

But, there is something intangible when I look at a true postwar piece.  It's paint doesn't have the quite same sheen, doesn't have the same feel, it even smells different than the new stuff.  It's survived the test of time. 

It quietly says "Yeah, I'm the real thing."

Rusty

About the only major postwar engine not remade yet is the Milwaukee Road F-3 AB. So, I see a set featuring that coming down the pike soon. Hope so, anyway!

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Whether the series goes down 50% or up 200% in value is irrelevant to Lionel

I think Lionel cares very deeply about whether their newly made product goes up or down in value after release. A portion of Lionel's market depends on resale prices staying high or going up. For a time, the gold rush mentality, with Lionel seeming to randomly making short runs and cutting orders made many people preorder everthing they really wanted, and many pieces they might want, for fear of missing out.

I'd bet there are still many people who justify the expense of their trains by telling themselves that they could sell the trains and recoup most of their investment.

Funny you mention this. I bought one of those 773's also in 1969 or 1970. I paid $189.50 with tax from Madison. Mine turned out to be a repainted 1950 cab on a frame that had parts from 1950 and 1965. I owned that engine for over a decade before a collector showed me the outline of the original 773 cab number under the paint by holding the engine at an angle under a lamp. The tender lettering was dry transfer type as I also learned. I am disappointed to this day about being taken advantage of like that when I was 13. They were selling the engine at a collector price level so they can't be defended by saying they were selling toys to be played with. From what I discoverd over the years is that Madison was assembling as many of the engines as they could. That's why they had "stacks" of them. Sorry for the off topic rant but that episode in my train collecting experience makes me react like the "slowly I turn" routine performed by the Three Stooges.

I gave my brother some years ago the option of the post war versions or the PWC, CC sets. I give him a set every year for a Christmas present. He chose the PWC, CC sets. Even though we grew up in the 50's. He wants the sets to be new and he likes the sounds that they put in these sets. Post war sets has no meaning to him. I have a 736 and Madison car set on order for him for this coming Christmas (hope it arrives). I myself also have no interest in post war but I am more into the modern hirail trains being delivered today.  So you see, just because we grew up in the so-called golden era of Lionel trains, it is modern trains for us.

My main point is that Madison had all of these because there was so little demand when Lionel reissued the 773.  And the 1950 version was no great seller at the time.  The were likely many  engines as well as a ton of parts left over.

 Madison was taking all of Lionel's excess production since the days of Standard Gauge Trolleys.  Later, Dad bought a 392 gunmetal tender.  This was sealed in the Lionel box with Lionel tape, so it really is unlikely that they made it.  They also promised to  make up an engine out of parts -- though they never did, for us at least.

You do make a good point about the minefield that is "collecting" -- and I  have far too many examples of my own (plenty of dealers thought I was just a dumb kid that they could swindle).  And all of those "Madison 773s" are floating around on the Collector Market today.

One last note, I do remember two seasoned TCA collectors -- Father & Son, who thought that the 773 was a good buy at the time.  Make what you will of that.

Is that 773 still in your collection? It would be interesting to see if it can be determined to be original.

Len Carparelli was painting lots of shells for madison hardware. He probably painted the 773. He would go in each week and pick up shells. He did tenders and engines of all types.

Rob

How interesting.  Wonder who did the casting for the 700 tender?  Might have been the original tooling used, though the frame die was almost worn-out.

Well, I would buy reaonably priced duplicates of the 700 series freight cars.  But so far, they have not yet been done. K-Line came fairly close for the hopper.

Williams made some in the late-1970s.  Can't remember exactly what they were like, but they go for peanuts on Ebay.

bigo426:  I seem to remember the: "SLOWLY I TURNED" phrase from  Abbott and Costello and the Susquahanna hat company!   The Stooges could have used the routine also  as part of their  "Slapstick".  Dennis M.

This is a fun question to ponder. As a 30 something my focus is on modern trains with sound, smoke and command control. However, I have purchased one Lionel PWC set. The B&O RDC 2 pack. I bought it to have a mint condition copy of the original to ply the rails on my pike.

Now, on to my answer. Having seen many of these offerings at far less than MSRP in the catalogs I would estimate that there is not much of a future for some of these sets to appreciate in the future. C. Sam I think you are on to something in that the broadest appeal to these sets is from those who have a childhood attachment. Once that generation moves on they may labor on in obscurity.

The trains from my youth sit in boxes and I have no desire to operate most of them. I also can't get myself to sell them due to sentimental value. They have almost no real value now that the technology has become far greater. I think it is also important to know that I only got back into the hobby because of MTH's modern offerings and command control. Without their efforts I would have put the entire hobby on the doomed list at the end of the Boomer generation.

Just a few thoughts, but interesting to think what may become of our beloved trains!!!

The Stooges did it too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYP1OBZfFK0

Abbott and Costello and the Stooges used the trigger words "Niagra Falls."

Susquehanna Hat Company was another phrase that also got Lou Costello a beating

in a similar routine.

I read the CTT article a few years back. Considering Madison was charging collector prices on some items - it wasn't a good thing IMO...

Would appreciate if someone noted relevant issue of CTT.

quote:

Well, I would buy reaonably priced duplicates of the 700 series freight cars.  But so far, they have not yet been done. K-Line came fairly close for the hopper.

All four cars were done with modern trucks, along with three new cars.

The new cars were a different style caboose, reefer, and stock car.

The three new cars fetch the highest prices on Ebay.