What would you pay for a set of Black Santa Fe Aluminum cars?

Here's some background on the set:

The "Midnight Chief" set was one of MDK's last cataloged aluminum sets (2005 V1 Catalogue.) A four pack was manufactured K-4630L  ($459 retail) and a two pack K-4630M ($229.) A baggage was available in the 2 pack (so it looks like this lot is a mixed with some duplicates.) K-line also made some midnight freight cars as well - these are also quite desirable.

On a related note K-line's ATSF High Level transition car also commands a large premium. It will be interesting to see how this listing plays out.

I would pay zero. These never existed in real life and are the ugliest set of O scale passenger cars ever produced.

How does that saying go? “A fool and his money are soon parted.”

The latest thing in home building is everybody wants everything in black.  I just supplied a job with black windows, black siding and trim.  The whole house with a black exterior.  Yuk, it’s a thing now, might explain something about this but don’t ask me what it is.  I’ve always been partial to Navaho White.

Cheers,       W1

Zip for the cars.  Here everyone who rents one of my buildings wants to paint it Grey.  My lease now says :no Black or Grey Paint.

@Yellowstone Special posted:

I would pay zero. These never existed in real life and are the ugliest set of O scale passenger cars ever produced.

How does that saying go? “A fool and his money are soon parted.”

That fantasy paint scheme appeared in a postwar Lionel catalog, perhaps as a mistake, but was never produced, so there's a certain mystique about it with some collectors.  In recent years, MTH produced F3s, passenger cars, freight cars, and a caboose with that scheme, and they apparently sold well.  To each their own.

Yes Mallard, I know the history behind them. 😉

@Yellowstone Special posted:

I would pay zero. These never existed in real life and are the ugliest set of O scale passenger cars ever produced.

How does that saying go? “A fool and his money are soon parted.”

I agree! Makes Autotrain colors shine!

@Mallard4468 posted:

That fantasy paint scheme appeared in a postwar Lionel catalog, perhaps as a mistake, but was never produced, so there's a certain mystique about it with some collectors.  In recent years, MTH produced F3s, passenger cars, freight cars, and a caboose with that scheme, and they apparently sold well.  To each their own.

I'm not a Santa Fe expert, but did Santa Fe ever paint their freight cars and caboose in the silver/red warbonnet scheme like their engines?

The nattering nabobs of negativity have expounded on a fantasy set. That's their opinion. The "Girls Set" is fantasy and highly collectible. My recollection is that Williams copy of it was their biggest seller for years. Is Lionel doing any fantasy trains these days? Are they selling?

Gerry

I haven’t seen a Lionel catalog in quite a few years but just by paying attention on this forum I can tell you with great certainty that they feature quite a few fantasy schemes.  So they must sell.  The next post down is about a NYC Mohawk in Pacemaker red, and not the first to discuss this.
Never heard of nattering nor a nabob, are those fantasy words.

Maybe all the naysayers just cant afford them? 🤷‍♂️

I personally like the black bonnet scheme. It’s one of the things that lured me into the hobby.  I agree the price is high for what it is, but maybe that is the cats meow to someone else?  I wouldn’t pay that price, but it could be an investment?  A good friend of mine bought 5 teslas in the last year, made money on all of them because people cant be patient, they have to have it now…..💩

So funny.

To me this K-Line BlackBonnet Passenger set is one of the most beautiful consists ever made. Always a favorite of visitors as well. The matching ABA pulling these 8 cars is visually stunning.

The BlackBonnet freight cars came in four road numbers each for a total of 16 cars (hoppers, tank, box, gon) plus a matching caboose. Go ahead - try and find that caboose for a reasonable price. Once again quite the impressive consist when paired with the matching ABA.

Others may not like them, but I think both sets are outstanding.

Paul

@Longshore posted:

Maybe all the naysayers just cant afford them? 🤷‍♂️

Can afford them.

Don't like them.  Period.

This whole "Blackbonnet" thing has gotten out of hand.

Rusty

I went and looked: Wow - that auction referenced is up to $3,800, that's over $600 per car. I guess more than one person always wanted this set. The matching ABA is available as well in a different auction for $1K.

@aussteve posted:

I'm not a Santa Fe expert, but did Santa Fe ever paint their freight cars and caboose in the silver/red warbonnet scheme like their engines?

No, the Santa Fe did not. Its red and silver "warbonnet" paint scheme was designed for the new diesels pulling its passenger trains at the time. So having cabooses painted in the same scheme would have been pointless. Much later, the Santa Fe did have some of its modern freight diesels painted in the warbonnet scheme again. But not cabooses, because they were no longer in use by that time.

As far as freight cars painted in the warbonnet scheme, that is totally the model train manufacturers' idea and not prototypical. In other works in real life, warbonnet cabooses and freight cars never existed. Again, total fantasy.

This is kinda of related, what's the going price on the ABA F3 set that pulls these cars?

@Rusty Traque posted:

Can afford them.

Don't like them.  Period.

This whole "Blackbonnet" thing has gotten out of hand.

Rusty

I’m with Rusty. I can afford them too, but why bother? I already have a nicer, realistic-looking Lionel Santa Fe Super Chief with the ABA F7s and aluminum cars with interiors and passenger figures. I like to run trains that existed prototypically.

No odd-ball fantasy nonsense for me, no matter how much other collectors are willing to fork out for them.

My only disappointment with the Midnight Chief is that it was not offered in the 21" series. Would it have sold? Who knows.

Wow, some of you are brutal. These are 3 rail trains. They’ve always been whimsical.

@romiller49 posted:

Wow, some of you are brutal. These are 3 rail trains. They’ve always been whimsical.

There was a time in this great land when they tried to be reasonably prototypical:

I don't mind a little whimsy, but to keep perpetuating and expanding on a printing error...

Rusty

For you youngsters, "nattering nabobs of negativity" (my error -- the word was actually negativism) was a saying by Spiro Agnew. He was Richard Nixon's VP before he was forced to resign because of an illegal payment scandal and replaced by Gerald Ford. He really had some wonderful sayings.  But repeating them would get political, which is a no-no.

Gerry

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

While I'm a big fan of KLINE 's 15" cars. I wouldn't pay $2000 + for this set.

I wouldn't pay $10,000 for a 1937 Lionel 700e either.

Nor would I pay $400 for 1 Natty Boh reefer...the list goes on and on.

But....this is other people's money.

I keep getting notifications on this so I’ll reply again. I have not been in this hobby long, and maybe it’s people in general but holy cow. You guys need to take a step back. One man’s trash is another man’s treasure. No one is forcing you to buy these. Remember boys, we are playing with toys here. We are literally arguing over the cost of toys?  Go watch a Pawn Stars and see how much toys are worth. IMO, I’m glad this brings this money, brings attention to the hobby and maybe, just maybe better QC?

Remember, the question posed by this thread was "what would you pay . . . ".

Some of the replies have also explained the basis for their reply.

And as always "one man's trash is another man's ".

Based on that price point mentioned above (albeit a sample of only one), I would think someone would get busy repainting or manufacturing some black bonnet cars/engines.

I have seen some at York but kept on walking after seeing the price.

And remember you can only spend your money once.

Getting back to Sam’s topic, I probably wouldn’t pay more than about $100/car.  They’re nice, but not $2000 nice.  THe Blackbonnet thing doesn’t bother me (these are toys we’re talking about after all).  Oddly enough the black passenger cars don’t do much for me but I do  like some of the Blackbonnet diesels.  And I think the Blackbonnet steamer that’s out there looks dumb.  LOL. As a previous wise poster put it, “to each his own.”

if Spiro T. Agnew himself were here, he’d probably view the wavering back and forth on the relative value of these cars as nothing more than the idle chatter of Vicars of Vacillation.  (his term, not mine). 😂😉.

Of course it's part of the whimsy of toy trains.

That the Atchison Topeka and Santa Fe RR would've painted any of their crack passenger trains BLACK for the trip across the Southwest to/from LA...especially in the summer months!...is ludicrous.  Baking the passengers in a rolling oven would not be part of a memorable trip, methinks.  Air conditioning systems on mid-century passenger trains were a high maintenance item needing all the help they could be given for passenger comfort.

BTW, there was an article in an old issue of Classic Toy Trains on the origin of the Lionel 'Blackbonnet' Santa Fe scheme. Update: Found the issue...October 2002, page 44.   As others have mentioned, it had to do with a catalog artist's conception from a photograph.  It was a real lulu of a faus pax...destined to whimsical hobby history...hysteria!...forever, obviously.

Hey, one of the nice things about this fantasy scheme is that there has been little of the usually ubiquitous argument about the 'correct' black paint used by the manufacturer(s)!

KD

That's funny, made me chuckle.  How many shades of black are there...   Has made for an interesting discussion if nothing else.  Also be interesting to see where it ends up selling for.  I'm not a fan of all things black and I sure as heck wouldn't pay $650 + for a single passenger car in that scheme.  Whoever is watching this keep us posted as to what it ends up selling for.

Btw - this did inspire me to google Spiro Agnew quotes.  He had some good ones.  ‘Some newspapers are fit only to line the bottom of birdcages’ for one.  Some toy trains are fit only to line the walls of nattering nabobs of negatism.  Or not…. Hey I gave it a shot.

Cheers,       W1

Nothing

@Yellowstone Special posted:

No, the Santa Fe did not. Its red and silver "warbonnet" paint scheme was designed for the new diesels pulling its passenger trains at the time. So having cabooses painted in the same scheme would have been pointless. Much later, the Santa Fe did have some of its modern freight diesels painted in the warbonnet scheme again. But not cabooses, because they were no longer in use by that time.

As far as freight cars painted in the warbonnet scheme, that is totally the model train manufacturers' idea and not prototypical. In other works in real life, warbonnet cabooses and freight cars never existed. Again, total fantasy.

PARTY POOPER

@dkdkrd posted:

Of course it's part of the whimsy of toy trains.

That the Atchison Topeka and Santa Fe RR would've painted any of their crack passenger trains BLACK for the trip across the Southwest to/from LA...especially in the summer months!...is ludicrous.  Baking the passengers in a rolling oven would not be part of a memorable trip, methinks.  Air conditioning systems on mid-century passenger trains were a high maintenance item needing all the help they could be given for passenger comfort.

BTW, there was an article in an old issue of Classic Toy Trains on the origin of the Lionel 'Blackbonnet' Santa Fe scheme.  Can't recall the exact magazine issue date.  As others have mentioned, it had to do with a catalog artist's conception from a photograph.  It was a real lulu of a faus pax...destined to whimsical hobby history...hysteria!...forever, obviously.

KD

IIRC it was an image where the stainless steel side panels appeared black in the image with the suns reflection. Often wondered who at Lionel missed it. You'd think the company had an image showing the red and silver right?

Maybe someone on here in Phoenix could conduct an experiment. How much hotter in the sun is black paint vs polished stainless? I've found chrome plated seat belt tabs too hot to touch on many summer days.

Wonder if the seller had any idea what this listing would sell for ?

@fastman posted:

PARTY POOPER

Sorry, fastman. 💁

There's no way I'd pay anywhere close to the current bid for these cars. I like the colors (I don't care if a toy train is prototypical or not), but I have my limits as to what I will pay for a given item. The other thing I won't do is say the winner of this auction is a fool. If he or she wants the cars badly enough and is willing to pay, so be it. Being the owner of a few sets of K Line aluminum cars, this sale shows they are at least holding their value.

To answer the question by BobbyD, living here in Az I would rather have an all black charger than a stainless Deloren. Nothing gets hotter to touch than that nice shiny metal!

I wish I could get a Black Bonnet set, just no way at those prices!

@romiller49 posted:

These are 3 rail trains. They’ve always been whimsical.

No. As Pocahontas said to John Smith: "Speak for yourself, John."

Having said that, thousands of dollars will buy a regular set, decals and lots of spray paint and masking tape. I'm not sure how good they look, anyway. Striking for a moment, then it gets darker.

Well, as you may have noticed by now, they went for $3,800. Glad it wasn't me.

Wow, $633 for each passenger car.  I hope the buyer has the matching engines to pull them.

So c.sam, what's your set worth to you?

Gerry