From the photos and videos I've seen, the Lionmaster line look like great locomotives. Seems like they would be great competition for MTH RK Imperial locos for those of us who like semi-scale, but want models that are reasonable caricatures of their prototypes. Obviously the market and potential profits drive what manufacturers produce. Just kinda surprised that line wasn't successful enough to be continued.
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Lionchief + happened
The two most recent Legacy Lionmaster steam locomotives (the Challenger and the Class A) were both $1000, and the Class A had some speed control problems because of the whistle steam effect, so that might have been what turned people off to the product line. The new LC+ 2.0 Big Boys are Lionmaster as well, but they're $1300.
Yes but LC+ is no match for Lionmaster (opinion based on photos, I own neither). For the most part LC+ steam locos are traditional sized generic models rather than semi-scale representations of actual prototypes. Nothing wrong with that, it's just a different segment of our hobby.
Scott, I hear you on this one. The LC+2 catalog motivated me, after 17 years with TMCC only, to add 3 DCS Imperial Rail King engines to my roster. I don't want/need a $1,000 Big Boy and I don't want a Junior Berk that's smaller than a traditional Hudson or Pacific at $500 MSRP. No thanks. The Imperial Line from MTH fills a void Lionel appears to have mostly abandoned, and I'm moving to it with both feet and my wallet.
LC+ 2.0 is basically the new Lionmaster in a way. I own a Lionmaster Greyhound Challenger, and it's probably my favorite engine. I also own a few Imperial steamers and MTH does a fantastic job when it comes to bang vs buck. However, whistle steam was something I wanted, and the Legacy sounds in my LM challenger are unmatched compared to anything else I own. I'm interested in the LC+ 2.0 Big Boy, but I really want to hear the sounds on it before I commit to such a large purchase.
Scott R posted:Yes but LC+ is no match for Lionmaster (opinion based on photos, I own neither). For the most part LC+ steam locos are traditional sized generic models rather than semi-scale representations of actual prototypes. Nothing wrong with that, it's just a different segment of our hobby.
From the ad copy, the new LC+ 2.0 stuff will be higher end than the existing LC or LC+ line. Nobody but Lionel knows for sure as none of the LC+ 2.0 stuff ships until late this year. I'm guessing that Lionel is making the move to TMCC for the Lionmaster line simply to differentiate it from the Legacy stuff. I doubt you'll see stuff like whistle steam on the LC+ 2.0 LionMaster stuff, I think that's the kind of features they will reserve for Legacy.
It didn't look like whistle steam was on the new LM Big Boy, but the description did state it had dual speakers which intrigued me. I'm fine with TMCC as long it looks and sounds good.
I have several Lionmaster engines as well as Legacy and LionChief+ engines. The Lionmaster engines I have are 1 TMCC and 2 Legacy. I see the new Lionmaster engines going with the new LionChief+2.0 (TMCC technology) as a natural progression to the line. I will miss the whistle steam in the engines however that's not a deal breaker for me. To me these engines are the best option for big engines on a layout with tight curves, like mine. I'm glad that Lionel continues to produce the Lionmaster line.
I started out with TMCC, then moved up to Legacy. I first hand my hands on a LionMaster SD90 and was very impressed with it. I have since acquired the LionMaster D&RG Challenger, UP BigBoy, N&W 2-6-6-4 and a PRR T1 4-4-4-4. I really like all of these.
The LionMaster is slightly smaller in size when compared to my Vision Line Challenger and Big Boy, but I really don't mind as my home layout does not have large curves to run the Vision Line series, my LionMasters run just fine. I really don't mind the lack of scale detail on the LionMaster engines. I belong to a club that has 72 inch curves, so my Vision Line engines come out whenever I have the chance.
So there is something to say about the LM series for those that do not have a large home layout for scale engines the size of the Challenger or BigBoy.
RAY
I'm a fan of the Lionmaster series and am glad they are continuing with the big boy, especially 4012 which is in Steamtown. I have an early Challenger which is a terrific engine and quite detailed and powerful since it is made for O 31.
Ryan and Dave did a very informative facebook live video regarding Lionchief 2.0. It "sounds" like the 2.0 items get the same soundsets as the scale stuff, as demonstrated by the 2.0 polar express in the video.
At 16:00 they bring out an engineering sample of the Lionmaster Lionchief 2.0 bigboy: https://www.facebook.com/Lione...eos/299075207656251/
Having said that. Im suprised they haven't reissued the Lionmaster hudson. This was a well done loco in the Lionmaster catagory:
raising4daughters posted:Scott, I hear you on this one. The LC+2 catalog motivated me, after 17 years with TMCC only, to add 3 DCS Imperial Rail King engines to my roster. I don't want/need a $1,000 Big Boy and I don't want a Junior Berk that's smaller than a traditional Hudson or Pacific at $500 MSRP. No thanks. The Imperial Line from MTH fills a void Lionel appears to have mostly abandoned, and I'm moving to it with both feet and my wallet.
I have an 072 layout, so scale is fine with me, but some of the RK Imperial offerings are just plain nice, and some - like my RK Triplex - are compressed so well with some "body parts" still retaining a scale size (cab, cylinders, pilot, boiler girth, as examples) that they can live in a 1:48 world, like scale models of a smaller, fictional, prototype.
Their RK USRA 2-8-8-2 Mallet is not truly an "Imperial" model (they now call it such, I think), but is a fat, hefty little bear and makes great project fodder; I've free-lanced 3 PS1's so far - and I have one left in "inventory".
Lionel does seem to have missed the target in this segment, either with less-desirable products or higher pricing, or both.
Several years ago I ask this very question at the York/TCA Museum presentation. Their response was it cost very little more to make it scale. I reminded them that not every layout can run large scale engines, I got no real response beyond a shrug. And yes the Hudson was a handsome piece.
I have every LionMaster engine except the cab forward and I'm glad they are continuing the line with the Big Boy. I just wish they had whistle steam in it like my Legacy version and I wish they would do some new tooling in the LionMaster line.
In order to run scale Legacy-sized engines on my conventional layout I would have to rip up a lot of track which I'm just not going to do, therefore Lionmaster when they had it, would have been the way to go for me. Unfortunately, by the time I got back into this hobby, Lionmaster was discontinued. The version in the new catalog is $1200 which is out of my price range thus the MTH Imperial line holds a lot of interest for me and is tempting me to strongly consider DCS rather than Legacy.
As I wrote in in a similar thread a week or so ago (on the subject of the DCS Explorer as a way of testing the DCS waters) LC+ has pretty much sold me me on remote operation. I especially like cruise control and the sounds are pretty good to my ear but if Lionel is going to reintroduce Lionmaster and price them like what they have in the one example they show in the 2019 catalog, then I'm out. I'm currently trying to figure out if I'll be able to run LC+ and DCS on the same track but if Lionel can produce their version of MTH Imperial in a LC+ engine at an Imperial price point, then I'll stay with Lionel.
If MTH can make money on Imperial I think Lionel can make money on competitively priced Lionmaster. That’s just my 2¢. Maybe someone from Lionel reads this stuff and I'm just one voice but I think there are probably many others who feel the same as I do.
Definitely agree about the Hudson. One of my favorites,very smooth runner and good sounds. Kept waiting for Lionel to make more of the smaller steamers in the Lionmaster series. Guess it’s not going to happen
Well, it might happen, but they might be priced higher than you're willing to pay.
GRJ you are probably right. When I bought the Hudson it was around $500 pretty pricey at that time. Today probably closer to a thousand
I paid $700 for the LionMaster Legacy T1 Duplex, neat little locomotive. I'm sure it would be lots more today.
A quick comparison of costs of locomotives on Trainworld website
LM BB: $1079.99
RK BB: $799.00
I've heard LM locos are better proportioned than RK, but can't say I've seen a side by side comparison. I'm not suggesting there is a univesal right answer. Individual preference prevails. As for me, I'm all MTH RK as of now, but I couldn't resist a fair priced LM LC+ 2.0 Hudson or Pennsy T1.
I'd be interested in what the sounds are like. The RK Imperial BB for 2018 doesn't have great sound, which is disappointing. If Lionel has better sound, that's a big plus.
gunrunnerjohn posted:I'd be interested in what the sounds are like. The RK Imperial BB for 2018 doesn't have great sound, which is disappointing. If Lionel has better sound, that's a big plus.
Check out my link to the facebook live Lionchief 2.0 video in my post above John.
Granted its an "engineering sample". Dave brings the bigboy out at the 16:00 mark. Its sounds about the same as the VL bigboy.
The new LM Big Boy is supposed to have two speakers (I'm guessing one in the engine and one in the tender) maybe. I agree with you Gunrunner on the sounds of the Imperial BB. I have one and they are really lackluster, not loud, and static sounding. The sounds in my LM Challenger are very impressive and really loud.
Scott R posted:A quick comparison of costs of locomotives on Trainworld website
LM BB: $1079.99
RK BB: $799.00
I've heard LM locos are better proportioned than RK, but can't say I've seen a side by side comparison. I'm not suggesting there is a univesal right answer. Individual preference prevails. As for me, I'm all MTH RK as of now, but I couldn't resist a fair priced LM LC+ 2.0 Hudson or Pennsy T1.
Hello Scott R
Last Dec 2018, I purchased a #30-1724-1 Railking Imperial Challenger new in the box which I paid full retail of 699.95. I really liked the engine a lot but it had some small paint chips which was easy to touch up and it is a very smooth engine using the Z4000. I can't say much for the sounds because I am hearing-impaired but I didn't care about the sounds and the looks of it is important to me as it didn't have the number boards so made a pair out of brass stock and decals which made it looks soo much better ( its a Union Pacific engine). I love its smooth running as I can feel it by putting my hands on top of the engine boiler and listen to it while its running so I was able to tell so. If the Railking Challenger had it cab moved back at least 1/2 inch at the rear then it would really look superb. The Railking Challenger is not bad looking engine. I am RK fan myself and have the scale size Railking NW2 # 30-2157-1(1999 era) in Southern green too. I liked the semi-scale sizes of the RK engines as its easier for me to pick them up due to smaller size wise. The Challenger is 8.55 pounds which is bit heavy for my hands and the NW2 is 4.04 pounds bit heavy for a yard switcher and that engine is smooth runner too.
Tiffany
BNSF-Matt posted:The new LM Big Boy is supposed to have two speakers (I'm guessing one in the engine and one in the tender) maybe. I agree with you Gunrunner on the sounds of the Imperial BB. I have one and they are really lackluster, not loud, and static sounding. The sounds in my LM Challenger are very impressive and really loud.
I'd bet money and long odds that there is only one sound system and both speakers are in the tender.
FWIW, I have the MTH scale BB from the 2017 catalog, and it's whistle is the same as the Imperial BB, not impressive!
LC+2 Big Boy
RickO posted:Having said that. Im suprised they haven't reissued the Lionmaster hudson. This was a well done loco in the Lionmaster catagory:
Patience. 
Historically, the sales on LM engines have been lackluster compared to scale. That's why the line had been dialed back. Our hopes are that the LC+2 tech will inspire people to order these engines moving forward. So far, the BB is meeting expectations and we're hoping for the same in planned future offerings.
Thanks!
I guess they DO read this stuff.
So bring back more LM, just price it competitively with Imperial. (And detail them just as nicely.)
“Historically, the sales on LM engines have been lackluster compared to scale.”
I can’t prove it, but this statement totally tracks with what our local hobby stores experience. I also thought the Lionmaster Hudson was very well done, but the price was so close to the scale piece that to make the jump (price wise) was easy.
It’s been shown time and time again; many people think size should dictate the price, which, if you are in any facet of manufacturing, know this is not true. Recent examples of this are the scale Mikado’s, beautiful engines, but so close in price to the Northern’ s that the “Lionel must be making a killing” mentality had kicked in and locally, the Mikado’s are slow sellers. Contrary to what many people on this forum thought was needed in the market.
Scott Mann over at 3rd Rail has also come up against this mentality with some of his smaller (size) projects.
Bottom line, the LionMaster line will be a tough sell, priced too far above the starter crowd to be an option and too close to the scale engines to justify not making the leap. This is a perfect case and reason why BTO is the best option to bring the product to market.
I wish them Lionel luck because so many people would have a better operating experience with the smaller engines but insist on shoe-horning a monster onto their 12 x 8 layout. BTW, this “size” mentality is NOT limited to the 3 rail guys, the two rail “scale” guys think the same way.
Charlie
@Dave Olson Thank you for the update! Honestly I would pick dual speakers over whistle steam if I had the choice.
@Dave Olson I am excited by LC 2.0 thus far. I preordered the Big Boy, a Berk, and the GG1. I wish I could run full scale, but my widest curves are O48, so having as close to scale features without needing O72 curves is awesome. Hoping to see J-class, the Challenger, and maybe a K4 brought into the family as well.
Wanted a layout for a long time, but didn’t have space and not enough time for setting up wiring and such. I also didn’t want to settle for the lackluster features / toy appearance of the cheap sets. LC+ got me into model railroading and now I can’t wait to expand my collection with LC 2.0. Thanks!
The LionMaster SD80MAC and the SD90MAC in the ELECTRO-MOTIVE demonstrator schemes need to be produced.
Andrew
Rail King Santa Fe Northern and Union Pacific Lionmaster Challenger
raising4daughters posted:Scott, I hear you on this one. The LC+2 catalog motivated me, after 17 years with TMCC only, to add 3 DCS Imperial Rail King engines to my roster. I don't want/need a $1,000 Big Boy and I don't want a Junior Berk that's smaller than a traditional Hudson or Pacific at $500 MSRP. No thanks. The Imperial Line from MTH fills a void Lionel appears to have mostly abandoned, and I'm moving to it with both feet and my wallet.
My father, uncle and I have felt the same way for some time now. We have a T1 and a big boy from Lionel Lionmaster but thats because we bought them when they first came out (TMCC and Railsounds 4.0) and were around 6-700 dollars and that was a lot but still affordable for a big steam engine. In my opinion the Lionmaster big boy looks much better but that is one of the few that have the edge over Railking to me.
Love my Lionmasters (Big Boy, Challenger, Cab Forward). They "fit" my operational capacity.
Lionmaster engines are awesome but they need to be priced competitively with the competition.
Marty, I'm pretty eager to see what is produced for the $250 LC+ 2.0 Dockside switcher, that's a price point that will get a lot of attention! I have an older Lionel Dockside switcher that I converted to TMCC, but I couldn't fit sound in at the time. This one with fan driven smoke, cruise, sound, and electrocouplers looks to be a dynamite deal!
gunrunnerjohn posted:Marty, I'm pretty eager to see what is produced for the $250 LC+ 2.0 Dockside switcher, that's a price point that will get a lot of attention! I have an older Lionel Dockside switcher that I converted to TMCC, but I couldn't fit sound in at the time. This one with fan driven smoke, cruise, sound, and electrocouplers looks to be a dynamite deal!
I wholeheartedly agree. Arnold
This thread, now a year old, takes on new meaning given that MTH is folding up the tent. Will Lionel step up to fill in some of the MTH RK Imp void that is looming? Is it plausible that Lionel would acquire some of the RK tooling and outfit those models with LC+2.0?
I for one would like to see the LM line flourish, especially with MTH gone. One can always hope
@Scott R posted:This thread, now a year old, takes on new meaning given that MTH is folding up the tent. Will Lionel step up to fill in some of the MTH RK Imp void that is looming? Is it plausible that Lionel would acquire some of the RK tooling and outfit those models with LC+2.0?
I for one would like to see the LM line flourish, especially with MTH gone. One can always hope
Frankly, the Lionemaster locomotives had superior looks over their RailKing equivalents.
Rusty
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