whats so special about Lionel's 6464 boxcars ?

Well, for starters most Lionel set from the 50s and 60s included a 6464 boxcar. Regardless of livery, all cars started with "6464". They are collectible, some much more than others. As for "why", who knows? 

Gilly

What's so special about them?  They survived.

Like all true postwar, they have a magic all their own that PWC and CC don't have.

Rusty

Wonderful Question on the 6464 series. Not sure if this helps but I feel like typing...

My Grandfather brought me the "family" train set as a Christmas gift in 1983. This transplanted the trains from Cleveland, OH to Chattanooga, TN. The transfer skipped a generation as my grandfather explained quite carefully to me, a boy of 12, that my father never had any love for the trains and only tried to crash them...for this reason he told me he had hoped the next generation might have more respect. He unfortunately never lived to see it but he was right.

In this collection of trains was a pre-war 636W and a 671 Turbine with cars. The beauty of the rolling stock was a 6464-50 Minneapolis and St. Louis.  Perfect condition, looked splendid on the o-Gauge rails we set up quite randomly on a ping-pong table in the basement.

In the early years my grandfather poisoned me a bit as I had only a small collection of trains but an absolute avalanche of old catalogs that he had collected over the years. In the eyes of a pre-teen that had yet to study economics and specifically inflation theory I had no clue why he had not bought the catalog twelve times over given the prices clearly shown in the 1957 catalog...matured a bit I was later excited to have the opportunity to collect the 6464 reissues from Lionel and they now form a very special part of my collection.

There is something about them that is just special, you see them in the old catalogs, up for sale on Ebay, just something nice and constant. A collectible that you can be assured every fan has the opportunity to be a part of. 

My 2 (Euro) cents at least, I am feeling a bit sentimental as I just got my old 636W running again this evening 4000 miles away from where I first received it many years ago. Still the same sound I remember, still the same smell from the engine...

Man life is good

Cheers all and good night, WaltDD

Yeah, I'm not so sure about the "why" either. But I think one of the things that attracts collectors is that it's a definable sub-set of Lionel rolling stock and offers that "collect them all" draw that you find with all sorts of so-called collectibles.

Tiffany,

They were larger and, in general, more colorful than the other postwar boxcars that had been produced up until then.

They had some interesting variations that collectors sought out, but major varieties were not large in number. The average collector could obtain the major varieties without too much trouble.

By the way, those two numbers you gave are not among the postwar 6464 varieties. All 6464 numbers are multiples of 25 such as -100, -125, -150, -175, -200, -225, etc.

Jim

quote:

By the way, those two numbers you gave are not among the 6464 varieties. All 6464 numbers are multiples of 25 such as -100, -125, -150, -175, -200, -225, etc.

I am pretty sure that 6464-196 and 6464-396 are modern era issues.

Everybody likes boxcars. And 6464 series boxcars were produced for 13 years, through the prime and decline of the Postwar (after World War II) era. They were larger and closer to scale than previous cars.

The 6464 series spanned 1953 through 1966 and comprised 29 different numbers, plus innumerable variations. These cars showed up on dealers' shelves, at train meets, and in auctions. The more in a collection, the better they looked. Side by side, variations in lettering, body molds and trucks could be detected.

When General Mills acquired the rights to make and sell Lionel trains via MPC (Model Products Corporation), 6464 bodies were smoothed to provide wide, flat surfaces for new painting and decorating techniques. New plastic trucks with "Fast Angle " wheels and needlepoint axles replaced Postwar trucks. And so began a prodigious series of "Modern Era" boxcars and reefers (refrigerated cars) that continues to the present day.

When collectors saw that Postwar production had ended, they focused on those products. The 6464 series was perfect for collecting, selling and trading.

6464 boxcars were available in 1969 too. They are shown on the back cover of the catalog.

The Train Collectors Association (TCA) online magazine e-train published an article about 6464 series boxcars and modern variations. Here is a link  Another link at the end (bottom) of that article goes to a 6464 boxcar chart.

Thanks, Reading Fan.

Yep, they are modern era Santa Fe and Northern Pacific according to the chart.

I didn't realize they put the 6464- style number on so many modern issue cars.

Jim

I think we are up to Part 7 of the 6464 series.

This guy is talking about the modern ones. They are not really collectible like the post-war ones. he probably doesn't even know about the early ones.

6464 Boxcars were a big deal when they first came out. Before they were introduced even "O" gauge sets came with 027 box cars. They didn't look right behind a Berkshire. The 6464 care were near scale size and became a big hit. New roads appeared every year. Don

hello guys and gals.........

So the modern era 6464 type cars are worth less than the postwar ones in the collectors market ? The modern LTI era 6464 boxcars seems to be better made and better painted (brighter colors), comes with sprung metal trucks, metal door guides, metal brake wheel and metal frame.  I think they are a better buy for the money. I paid 20 dollars each for the 6464-196 and 6464-396 as both were new in the box. Can you beat that ?

the woman who loves the S.F.5011,2678,2003,200

Tiffany

For an operator you can't beat the modern versions plus you can have every one made since 1990 for less than the price of one of the rarer originals.

Pete

Yes, they are worth less in the current market.  It's supply and demand like with anything else.  The modern versions can easily be found MIB/NIB.  Pristine versions of PW models are not as abundant.  I had the first ten sets of the reissues and many of the single release models.  Then it got crazy with numbered over cars etc.  I sold most of them off.  The 9200, 9400 & 9700 series are similar to the 6464 and can be found cheap.  The 9200 series only had 10 or 11 cars and is easy to obtain without much effort.  I had the 9200 and 9700 series cars, but have sold them off as well.

Jeff Davis

The nice thing about the original PW 6464 boxcars is there's a finite number of them, so it was relatively easy to collect the entire series.  Although some of the originals are now very difficult  to find in great condition.  Hard to believe all of them sold for around $6 to $9 each back when first released!    But we're talking the 1950's and 1960's, when $5 or $6 would also buy you a nice 4-course dinner at a fine NYC Italian restaurant that my folks would take me to when I was I kid.  Ah, good memories, for sure!  

About 15 years ago, when Atlas-O started producing 40' reefers, the buzz around town hinted they'd become the modern era collectable equivalent of Lionel's 6464 boxcars.  That was the thinking for a few years, but eventually reality set in.  On one hand, Atlas-O started overproducing them -- both in terms of large production runs and also just too darn many offerings, including the introduction of 36' varieties as well.  On the other hand, it became difficult to track some obscure "special runs" that weren't all that well-announced.  But I guess that comes with the territory when collecting.  

Bottom line... it would take a near-warehouse to display all the Atlas-O reefers, whereas you'd only need a modest display-case to show off the couple dozen or so Lionel PW 6464 boxcars that comprise the entire series.

Modern-day Lionel LTI made a good attempt at reproducing 6464's with nice details (vs. the inferior boxcars MPC manufactured without the post-war rivet detail).  A nice respectably "complete collection" was issued as 3-packs over several years by LTI -- issued as Volume 1 through 10 (in Roman numerals).  

But then Lionel muddied up the waters with more 6464-based offering that included an "archive" series and then even an "over-stamped" series.  Both were a bit overkill in my opinion -- just trying to cash in on 6464-mania.   

Most recently, Lionel started a series of scale PS-1 boxcars in the paint-schemes of postwar 6464 boxcars.  But they were very short-lived -- having only been catalog'd as two 2-packs, the last of which was a few years ago.  And nothing since then.   So the PS-1 "6464" offerings may have fizzled before they ever really got off the ground.  I've seen both 2-packs being blown out at significant discounts by major dealers, so maybe they just didn't take hold. 

Too bad.  I would have sprung for the full PS-1 "6464" series similar to the Volume 1-10 three-packs that LTI produced.  Who knows... A few featured in each catalog, and in another half decade or so we'd have a new generation of 6464 boxcars in all of Lionel's scale PS-1 glory.  But that doesn't appear too hopeful right now.  

David

It's amazing how our trains have evolved over the years.

When the 6464 series appeared in the 1950s they were the greatest in terms of size and color.

But, look at the Lionel scale PS-1 offerings that David mentioned in terms of detail and overall appearance and the difference is amazing.

It doesn't decrease the appeal of the old ones to me, but you have to admit we've come a long way.

Jim

I totally agree with this assessment...and some of those overstamped cars were just plain ugly!

 

Jeff Davis

 

Originally Posted by Rocky Mountaineer:

But then Lionel muddied up the waters with more 6464-based offering that included an "archive" series and then even an "over-stamped" series.  Both were a bit overkill in my opinion -- just trying to cash in on 6464-mania.   

Not sure I understand this point of view. Are you guys saying to collect something you need to try and obtain everything in a series even the ones that don't appeal to you? How about just getting the ones you like and forgetting the ones you don't? 

BTW I never cared for the overstamped cars either and will never own them.

Pete

Several years back CTT ran a several issues long guide to 6464 boxcar. It was pretty interesting to see what people were calling a variation. Heck some of the variations were simply molding marks on  the inside of the car, you couldn't tell unless you looked inside.

I think the attration to the car was the high detail for the time,realistic look and logos from rail roads of the time that made them look like the real boxcars that were on the rail in those days

Here is a "modern" 6464 boxcar based on a Postwar Western Pacific "Blue Feather" car (6464-100 / 6464-250) inside and outside its box. A number stamped in thin black ink on the open end flap is 20354. The Built (BLT) Date is stamped NEW 1-94 in white.

At the bottom right corner on the back of the box is MADE AND LITHO IN U.S.A.

Lionel did a FINE job on this car. It is one of my favorites.

quote:

Not sure I understand this point of view. Are you guys saying to collect something you need to try and obtain everything in a series even the ones that don't appeal to you? How about just getting the ones you like and forgetting the ones you don't? 

Yes, It's quite common to collect everything in a series, even the ones that don't appeal to you.
The idea is to have the entire set. A lot of the fun is in the activities surrounding the hunt and acquisition.

I always thought that the 6464 boxcars were colorful and looked nice. Most operators don't have 50' x 50" layouts so the semi scale look of these cars seems to fit in well on average size layouts. I have the entire PW 6464 collection but so what!!  The trucks are old style and don't run as smooth as the newer boxcars w the fast angle wheels so I purchased the entire collection of re-issues so that they could be run. With new 6464's you can run a long consist, with the old maybe 10 cars and then the train noticeably slows down from the high load. My old PW 6464's really have the vintage looks but in reality are just wall hangars or collector objects!!!

I toast both sides and like nearly all kinds of bread. I'll skip the brussel sprout bread though. 

Pete

quote:

I always thought that the 6464 boxcars were colorful and looked nice. Most operators don't have 50' x 50" layouts so the semi scale look of these cars seems to fit in well on average size layouts. I have the entire PW 6464 collection but so what!!  The trucks are old style and don't run as smooth as the newer boxcars w the fast angle wheels so I purchased the entire collection of re-issues so that they could be run. With new 6464's you can run a long consist, with the old maybe 10 cars and then the train noticeably slows down from the high load. My old PW 6464's really have the vintage looks but in reality are just wall hangars or collector objects!!!

Well put!

The person who wants to run a long train is better off with the Modern era reproductions.
But here is the other side: When you only have room for a short train due to your layout size, it can be nice to have cars that have some real mass to them. In fact, I find that AMT freight cars are even better to run than most Postwar Lionel one. AMT boxcars have a die chassis and are molded from a fairly heavy plastic.

I would think that for a Lionel owner back in the early 50's, seeing a 6464 boxcar in the catalog was similar to seeing a 700E scale Hudson for the first time. Here was a boxcar 10 1/4" long compared to 7" or 8'' long for the normal boxcars at that time. Taking the boxcar from toy to almost scale took model railroading to a whole new level. I was only 4 years old in '53 so I didn't realize the impact that these boxcars had. If I was older then and had the money to buy these new boxcars, I would have become a founding Hi-Railer. Everything on my layout would have had to be as close to scale size as possible back then. This is what a 6464 means to me. 

hello guys and gals......

My first 6464 type boxcar was the orange #6464-735 or 725, it was plain painted with AAR plastic trucks with black doors.  It was part of my 2383 set back 1968 and the modern LTI 6464 cars look better detailed and better painted too with metal trucks. My last boxcar is the green Northern Pacific 6464-396, I love the green color. The "NP" stands "No Problem" !!!! LOL.

the woman who loves the S.F.5011,2678,2003,200

Tiffany

To answer your question,they are very appealing to the eye. Be it the originals or the remakes. And as pointed out the appeal carried on with the 9200,9400 and 9700 and so forth into the modern era. 

I cobbled together a mostly complete collection of 6464 boxcars in the 70's. When LTI began the reissues in the 90's,I collected those too as some of the more eye appealing archive 6464's.

Besides the fact that unlike today they were 100% American made, Lionel collectors of 6464 boxcars sahould take comfort in knowing there's one big huge difference that forever makes original PW and LTI 6464's a collectable cut above all current and future reissues. 

They were all actually manufactured "BY" Lionel, not "FOR" Lionel here or offshore.

Call it insignificant or noteworthy but a historic distiction that can never be repeated.

Joe 

I always coveted these cars as a kid.....and am lucky to have a few.....in the 80s and early 90s their prices were out of site!  Therefore, I was satisfied with the re-issues. They do make a colorful display.

Peter

Authentic Postwar 6464 boxcars (NOT celebration series or other reissued items) still hold a LOT of interest for collectors.  There are many many more 6464's than one would think, when you consider the huge number of variations of many of the cars such as the MP 6464-150, or the Timken 6464-500, just to name a couple.  There are color variations, graphics variations, body type variations, and so on, ad infinitum.  Collectors have been fascinated with these characteristics of 6464 boxcars for years.

hello guys and gals............

I got bored and decided to go to E-bay to look at the photos of the postwar 6464 boxcars.  I was very surprised to find that the modern era (LTI) 6464 cars had more rivet detail on the sides compared to the old 6464-735 postwar boxcar.  I took one of my 6464-196 boxcar and checked closely to the photos, yup more rivet details than the postwar ones.  Check it out yourselves and compare.  This means that the modern era cars are better pretty much on everything and good low prices too.

the woman who loves the S.F.5011,2678,2003,200

Tiffany

I very much enjoyed the 6464's when I was a kid, as I do now.  My favorites were the

NYC jade green, the Rutland green and yellow, the tuscan PRR, and the black New Haven with orange door.

     Hoppy

Yes, the LTI 6464 re-issues were very well done in terms of detail.  And Lionel's scale PS-1 boxcars take the detail level up yet another notch... which is why I was so hoping that the Postwar Scale 6464 Boxcar 2-packs would continue.  But over the course of 4 years time, Lionel has only released TWO of these scale 2-packs:  

6-27283:  (6464-1 WP and 6464-25 GN)

6-27286:  (6464-50 M&StL and 6464-175 Rock Island)

They're not the most elaborate of paint schemes of the series, but they replicate the original post-war 6464's with much greater detail of today's PS-1 class boxcars.

Come on, Lionel... keep this series going!!!    If my math is right, we'll need another dozen or so 2-packs to replicate the original post-war 6464's.  And at the rate of two 2-packs every 3 to 4 years, I don't think too many of us will be around for the duration to collect 'em all. 

David

quote:

  I was very surprised to find that the modern era (LTI) 6464 cars had more rivet detail on the sides compared to the old 6464-735 postwar boxcar.

Over the years, the Lionel Corp (postwar) changed the level of rivet detail in order to facilitate decorating the cars. I have never compared LTI cars to the originals. If I am not mistaken, the 6464-735 is a late Postwar car, with a lot of the detail gone. I wonder how your LTI cars would compare to an early postwar 6464 boxcar.

I like all trains.

In the original post, the question is asked: "Are 6464 boxcars collectable". My answer is: If you are interested in collecting something, then it is collectable". I've collected things few other people were interested in. For a collector that can be a lot of fun, because unpopular things often aren't well documented, so one has to do the research. Some of those items have caught on, and become popular collectables, others, not so much.

I think the term "lead balloon" comes to mind with PS-1's decorated like 6464's...

Rusty