Which Comes First, the Chicken or the Egg, or What Order Do You Purchase a Passenger Train

PTC,

In the secondary market, I buy cars as they come along.  I look for specific items I want.

 

If it's an order item, I want a passenger car set and maybe a few add on cars.

 

If I had the choice, the manufacturers would make the observation cars as an 'add on, separate sale item' so I wouldn't end up with more than one.  Many times I've wanted to purchase an additional set but don't want another observation.  Buying extra sets are easy way to make longer passenger trains.

 

I'm not interested in waiting 5-7 yrs to build a train either.

 

As for motive power, I don't worry about that.  I have plenty.

 

This should be interesting, can't wait to read the replies.

Cars first.

I have done all three. 

 

Purchased the K-Lune WP F7 (ABA) powered California Zephyr (5 cars) and spent a few years adding onto it and changing the power (Legacy WP F3 ABB). 

 

I got a MILW S3 (267) and then went looking for heavyweights to put with it. 

 

I got UP Streamliner cars from Lionel and MTH and then went searching for power.  Am on my 4th or 5th selection of engines. 

Brian

 

In the beginning of time it was actually both since I knew what I wanted. Now that I am concentrating on GN/CB&Q. My Broadway limited( K4 ), NYC 20th Century limited( Hudson) and SP Daylight(GS4) are all gone with my only ATSF E3A The Chief as the last one standing. Once I complete acquiring GN/CB&Q freight engines for my era( still need GP7/9(both roads), GP20(CB&Q), U25B(GN) and F3/7 (Both roads) I will start with passenger consists again. Same process will apply. After all, hunting for what you want is the best part!!!! 

Brian,

   Most times I do like to purchase the full Passenger Train sets all at one time, however if I can't I want the Engine 1st, such as my GG1 PRR Brunswick Green one stripe Engine, knowing I could acquiring the Passenger Cars, a little at a time, over a long period of time.  I also did this with my Legacy Shay Engine, knowing I could eventually acquire the K-Line Skeleton Logging Cars, and the Atlas O WAG Box Cars, along with the Mini Cabin Caboose, needed for completing my full WAG logging Train.  No matter whether it's a Passenger train or work train being purchased, I want the Engine 1st when I can not purchase the entire train set, all at one time.

PCRR/Dave

This is a really good question:

 

The most recent situation that this has been a question for me has been the announcement of the Sunset /3^rd Rail E8 and E9’s.

 

Cataloged were three units that have been on my wish list for many years.

 

Illinois Central, Chicago & Northwestern and Wabash, in order of my interest.

 

A question was posted to the board as to what or which engines would we be interested in. The answer for me is I am interested in all three, but with no passenger cars (announced or on the market already) I have no intention of misleading Scott or anyone else, that I will not be able to support the project without the understanding the passengers cars (for passenger engines) must be available or on the drawing board.

 

So to answer your question Brian, the whole set does not have to be made at the same time, but the intention of manufacturing a set (passenger cars and engine) must be there for me to purchase.

 

 

Charlie

I don't really know that there has been any method to my madness! 

But Brian, your way certainly makes sense.  Even if you have to do custom painting, better to do one or two locos because you can't find what you seek, than several passenger cars.

I chose to seek out the passenger cars first, especially when Its concerning GGD cars as they are especially rare on the secondary market. Unfortunately, they often show up for sale for only part of the complete set (ex set B is for sale when there is a set A,B,C required to make a prototypical consist). I will even buy incomplete sets if necessary as you never know what will show up (Still looking for the 1948 Century set C). I like the idea of making the observation car an "extra car" not included in standard sets. Often there are at least one or more options already available on the market for motive power, often from multiple manufactures. However, when it comes to scale passenger cars, it's GGD or no one, unless your looking for 3/4 of a CZ set and have 5 years to kill doing it. GGD passenger consists take priority over all other purchases for me. Also, I am very excited about the announced GGD Sunset Limited (which deserves its own thread). This also happens to be a great example of both the passenger cars and the motive power being announced at the same time.

I think that it would depend on which was more rare or harder to find.  Get the rarest piece and then the easier piece to acquire.  In most cases, it will probably be the passenger cars that are hardest to find.  That may not be true with past 3rd Rail engines.

 

Art

Brian,

 

My passenger fleet is nowhere near as extensive as yours, and is focused on the PRR and a couple of other roads that interchange with the Pennsy.  My current collection started with the K-Line 21” PRR 8-car set I picked up real cheap, so these cars were first.  Soon after I picked up a 4 pack of K-Line 18” cars.  At that point I asked myself what I really wanted for passenger trains.  Since my layout is set in 1949, I did some research and saw that the Pennsy’s passenger trains at that time were a mix of heavyweight and streamlined cars in both pre- and post WWII paint schemes.  I also realized there were no streamlined baggage or RPOs.  So buying complete sets from one of the manufacturers no longer appealed to me.

 

I made a list of trains and their makeup that I wanted, including motive power, and over the years I’ve been buying these items.  As new items have become available, I’ve modified my list to include them.  The hardest cars to find were ones that came in sets; usually the seller does not want to break up the set.  I have both 21" and 18" sets.  So to answer your question, based on my current buying philosophy, I’m buying both cars and engines at the same time.  When an appropriate car or engine from my list becomes available to add to the train, I buy it.

 

For example, here is the current makeup of my accommodation train:

 

MTH R50b

Atlas O X-29 Express

MTH R50b

Weaver B60 baggage/mail

GGD Baggage/RPO

GGD Baggage

GGD HW Combine

4 GGD P70 coaches (one with no stripes)

K-Line 21” LW diner

K-Line 21” LW Parlor

GGD LW Sleeper in FOM paint scheme

3 GGD Pullmans

K-Line 21” boat tail obs

 

I pull this train with one of these engines:  Lionel Centipedes, Weaver Passenger Sharks, or double headed Lionel K4s.  The only passenger engine left on my list are PAs.

Just to change things up a bit, I'm in a different situation than most. I'm trying to model the late 1800's, early 1900's. MTH is the only importer that offers rtr passenger cars in that era, and, of course, they are too long for the railroad I model. To get what I want, I build LaBelle kits.

 

The only locomotives that even come close to my era are the Williams 10 wheeler, and the MTH 2-8-0, neither of which are ideal.

 

So, at the moment, passenger cars first, then someday, someway, correct loco.'s. In the past when I did things the easy way, I'd buy an engine, then find passenger cars that went with it. Since I can't do "out of the box" anymore, and I sometimes envy those that can, I have to dial in my somewhat limited modelling skills.

In todays market, whatever I get my hands on 1st.

It's rare that both an appropriate engine and pass cars are available for what I model at the same time or at any time for that matter.  But, I can build pass cars with a lot less pain that small steam engines.  As such, if I see a reasonable engine that I believe suitable to my era and RR, then that becomes very attractive to pursue.  Pass cars are far easier for me to create.....

I modeled the Pennsylvania railroad.

My favorite trains were passenger trains and unit trains, like coal drags and TOFC.

Modeled post war 1947 to 1956.

Scale brass steam engines in this period were the first objective.

Prototype scale passenger cars were second.

I used various references to determine the correct passenger cars for the Blue ribbon Fleet.

eg: Broadway, Spirit of St Louis, Jeffersonian, etc 

It's happened both ways....but usually it's the passenger cars that catch my eye first.  And then after the impetuous purchase decision comes the sometimes painful question, "what do I get to pull these and how much is that going to cost??"  

 

Years ago I picked up some Amtrak Surfliners because I thought the gray and silver bi-level cars were beautiful.  I then come to learn that they look really great being pulled by an Amtrak California diesel.  Well good luck finding that.  It took a few years before I stumbled upon an Atlas Amtrak Calif. diesel at York, and last month I had the whole set up and running on a loop for the first time ever.

 

On the flip side of this question of which comes first...walked by a table at York a couple of years ago and fell in love with the colors of an MTH Amtrak Northwest diesel.  Bought it, even though I had nothing to go with it, had never seen the passenger set, and had no idea what they even looked like.   A couple of months ago I unexpectedly found the matching passenger cars.

 

Like a lot of things in this hobby, the purchase decisions, for me anyway, stem from some unplanned, visceral reaction to the look or color of something I come across by accident.

 

Nice thread by the way.  

I bought my Lionel JLC PRR GG1 a few years back at a great price, and was content just running it as a freight engine.  At a train show last November though, I got a good deal on a set of MTH passenger cars to go with it.  I do like running it with either type of train though.

When Atlas announced the Zephyr Cars I started looking for the CB&Q E-8 from MTH,it took a year,bought from a forum member in mint condition.I already had the Lionel WP F-7 ABBA in Legacy.I had a Lionel D&RGW Alco PA ABA that I put ERR Cruise Commander in so I have all three railroads pulling power.

Mikey

 

I go with the passenger cars first, then the loco.  I can always have empty coaches sitting on a siding and fitting right in to the layout.

 

As I build back up my rolling stock, I will most certainly have an MTH Amtrak Amfleet (duh, my username!) Phase IV set like I did before to run on my club layout.   As I want the loco to be a Genesis P42, I won't be buying the MTH set, but will buy the coach, cafe, baggage and dining cars first and then the loco.  Would ultimately like to have a 10-car consist (6 Amfleets).  Would be nice to get a Viewliner to be finally made  by anybody, somebody, but that's another topic. 

 

  

Interesting concept, Brian..........as I think about it, I have done it every which way.

 

Peter

Last Spring York I acquired my second named passenger train, the PRR's Spirit of St. Louis.  Given that I can run these with either a K-4 (which I already own) or an M-1 (somewhat rarely used for passenger service and probably wrong for this train), I am pretty happy.  If I really wanted to complete the set, I would look for a E-8 locomotive pair in PRR tuscan.

 

Truth be told, if you can't buy the entire train (locomotive + passenger cars) at one time, I think you buy the first piece to come along when it becomes available.

 

George

Well for the Powhatan Arrow, 611J and seven 21" cars. Both were preordered and it is incidental that the locomotive arrived first. 

I've always secured the cars first, then either looked to purchase or decided what current motive power would pull them.

Smart money is to get all the cars at the same time.

Oddly enough, the two passenger trains I've bought/preordered are complete sets.  I'd say it doesn't matter which comes first - if I find a quality engine or cars that fit my taste, & I have the funds, I'd buy & search for the missing piece later. 

 

I hadn't really given this much thought.  I have purchased passenger cars and locos  when they are in the same catalog.  Mine is a toy train layout, so as long as the engine matches the passenger cars I don't care if it is prototypical.  When you are purchasing non-scale items, they aren't very prototypical anyhow.

 

Jeff Davis

More often than not, different power is used to pull the same passenger train, i.e., Southern Pacific Daylight trains #98 &99. My passenger cars usually come first, then  the locomotive(s).  

Brian,

    I usually start with the chicken first....I mean the engine. I bought my Legacy Lindbergh engine first once it came in and saw how nice it was I quickly called my dealer back and ordered the two car passenger set that went with them. I also picked up a 3 pack Lionel PRR 18" passenger car set off eBay at a real low price so I had the eggs ahead of time when I picked up my Legacy K4 (that started life as a Polar RR K4). I did pick up another Legacy K4 1330 off the forum so I will be double heading my PRR passenger train at this years open houses. I also picked up some MTH express reefers after the chickens no engines were .......never mind I am getting confused it's too early in the morning.

 

JohnB

I have s started with the engine first but I agree with Brian it makes more sense to find the cars first especially when it comes to the harder to find sets. 

Typically I buy the locomotive first and build the train thereafter. The Rail King passenger cars I run usually come in 3-car sets, so that is the second step. Finding the add-on cars such as a combine and diner is the 3rd step. Last and the hardest is finding an express box car to match the paint scheme of the set.

I have to agree with Marty, get all the cars at once since some of the add ons may be hard to find, then the power units.

 

Jack

When we order them, we order fewer of the add on cars than the 5 or 4 car sets, so as suggested, best to get them all at once.....

 

For me, I get whatever ships first..... we have IC and MR E's anxiously awaiting the arrival of their matching cars.....

The short answer is: "It depends." If I see a set of passenger cars that I want, I will buy them whether or not I have something to pull them. Same for a locomotive - if I want the engine, I'll buy it. If I don't have the exact train for it, there's probably something in my collection that will work. Sometimes the correct engine doesn't exist. Lionel made a nice set of short Milwaukee Road cars with a proper Skytop observation around 2000, but they never did make a traditional style F unit in passenger colors. They showed the cars in their catalog with a freight engine. This was before K-Line and MTH started making Skytops.

 

I do agree with the observation that it's usually harder to fill out a passenger set than to find a locomotive. Back when I was making the transition from traditional to scale equipment, I had a chance to pick up a Weaver Hiawatha add-on coach at a good discount. I passed on it because the full sets were hard to find and I wasn't sure I wouldn't get stuck with an orphan. Well, I found the 5-car set, then I found the 2-car add-on, and you know what? It took me another ten years to get that single add-on coach, and I paid a premium price on eBay. Like Janis said, "Get it while you can." Right now I'm looking for a K-Line Milwaukee Road "Oconomowoc Lake" sleeper because my family is from Oconomowoc. I've got a whole train of 18" cars that I wouldn't otherwise have bought so that I'd have a train to run that sleeper in, but I still haven't found it. Got outbid a couple of times, but I'm still looking.

 

I wish somebody would make a decent generic turn of the century Ten-Wheeler to go with all the short heavyweight and wood-sided passenger cars that are available. That would be a perfect combination, but all the Ten-Wheelers on the market are either tacky-looking (RK, Williams), too modern (Lionel), or PRR-specific (Belpaire firebox, doesn't look right on any other road). 

I've gotten the locomotives first so far, then gotten the passenger cars later, whenever MTH happens to get around to making them, and I have the money to buy them.

I almost had a panic attack the other day when I checked my pre order list.  I have pre order the Lionel C&O 21" passenger car set a couple of months ago, and I realized that I hadn't ordered a engine. So I went looking for the engine (lionel 6-81228  and found out that everyone was sold out. The engine was in 2014 signature catalog while the 21" cars are in the 2015 signature catalog.  After talking to a very wise friend, who told me that there are many different powers options from different manufacturers,I realized the cars are the harder to find. 

 

Keep an eye open for an old All-Nation//Babbitt ten wheeler - they were available in both 2 and 3 rail configurations and can generally be picked up for under $200.

Brian,

 

I agree that this is an interesting question and add my response because it relates to something I am intending to post when I complete a particular passenger car project I have in hand now.

 

Mine has been a slow education in the history of passenger cars AND the ways in which 3rail O gauge models actually represent them or not, which is a subject for another thread. The result has been that I started by getting the engines first - usually with little planning as to what would be pulled behind any particular one - and then passenger consists to complement certain engines. 

 

I didn't know much about the secondary market for passenger cars at the time. However, illuminated passenger cars with detailed interiors are crowd pleasers for practically everyone who comes to see my trains and I have come prefer them to any other form of model rolling stock. Over time but especially recently I have studied a lot more about the prototypes, which adds some interest to tracking down what I want in the secondary market. 

 

Because I model mainly the western railways (UP, SP and MKT in particular) and have some recollection of the heyday of streamliners I have hunted down mainly aluminum cars, 21" if possible. I started with UP but actually have more SP now and much of it is K-Line (or Lionel based on K-Line tooling), which has both good and not so good aspects. But to answer your original question lately I have looked to source the passenger cars first and then the motive power.

 

Right now I have on the rails a "fantasy" SP excursion train, which I dare not picture because it would be offensive to SP/Daylight purists, which has Lionel aluminum cars I think are based on K-Line tooling and is pulled by an MU'd Daylight cab forward and Legacy ALCO PAs (A-B-A). I made sure I sourced the cars first and then the engines (although I would have opted for the cab forward in any event). 

I've done it all three ways:

 

Hogwarts, Greenport Scoot and NEC sets: pre-packaged (and later added onto)

 

K-Line KCC C&O F3's: Received first, bought Williams ABS 72-footers years later

 

Auto-Train: Bought autoracks first, then Superliners after about 10 years, followed shortly thereafter by the Genesis locos that are assigned to haul it*

 

Three Rivers: Collected passenger cars first, added Genesis locos, then came up with idea for the TR when Bowser started marketing Amtrak RoadRailers (up to that point the train had not run yet)

 

---PCJ

 

*Locos used on my Three Rivers were originally slated for the Auto Tran, but were re-assigned when I determined that four motors were necessary to move it.

Usually I have purchased the engine first and then the passenger cars.