Who made Lionel's early 21" aluminum cars?

c.sam posted:

Was wondering where Lionel came up with the handsome 21" aluminum cars they sold some years ago like the Texas Special.  Was this K-Line's old tooling?

Yes, definitely - as a direct comparison of the earlier K-Line models with the Lionel versions clearly shows. They are alike in just about every respect including not only body shells but interiors and lighting. I think that Lionel had to provide new frames to accommodate electronics in the StationSounds diner but otherwise there's no substantial difference.

I read somewhere that Lionel had access to this tooling only for a limited period so no idea who has the rights to it now.

P.S. As an aside, the passenger figures that Lionel now offers as separate parts are the same ones used in the K-Line passenger cars and Lionel's corresponding 21" models. So somehow Lionel still has access to that resource if not the car tooling. But in any event Lionel won't be making aluminum cars any more. 

When Lionel won the lawsuit that put K-Line out of business, they had access to K-lines tooling that was owned by the factory that Bachmann's parent company Kader eventually bought.  After that transaction, many manufacturers who used that facility were no longer permitted to use it.  Presumably Bachmann has access to the tooling.  In China the tooling belongs to the factory not to the manufacturer. 

As I recall the only car sets that came out of the K-Lionel era were the Texas Special and the Big Sky Blue Empire Builder cars.  I don't remember if the CSX business train was done under the original K-line or not.

At this point with the price of aluminum cars, it doesn't seem they would sell in the quantity they used to.  Just producing the same cars they have in the past, they would still be over $200 a car based on today's materials and labor costs.

GG1 4877 posted:

As I recall the only car sets that came out of the K-Lionel era were the Texas Special and the Big Sky Blue Empire Builder cars.  I don't remember if the CSX business train was done under the original K-line or not.

As we are talking about 21" cars I think that you must be right. But there are also 18" Lionel cars from the same period that I think were based on K-Line tooling, especially certain SP and possibly UP sets. These show the same similarities to K-Line passenger cars I have noted above. 

The K-Line cars were made by Sanda Kan.  K-Line  had a user agreement with Sanda Kan to make the cars.  Bachmann now has the tooling and about two years ago before the Big E, the decision was made that they are not going to make the cars at that time period.

Jonathan is correct.  I always loaded up on the K-Line aluminum cars for myself and a few years ago was lucky enough to buy a large number of those cars in a collection.   

Does anyone remember the member about four years ago who was looking for the 21 inch 10 car CZ set?   

Aluminum car tooling is pretty universal and K-Line was no different.  There is a tool that extrudes the aluminum into the shape of the sides and top and it is cut at fixed intervals like 21", 18", 16" or 15".  The windows used to be a punch tool made for each car type which were fairly cheap prior to CNC.  The base frame is a slide in plate and then you place the end caps on the cars.  It wouldn't surprise me at all if Lionel used the K-Line tooling for their 18" cars for those brief few years as well.  It was superior to what Lionel had at the time. 

GG1 4877 posted:

As I recall the only car sets that came out of the K-Lionel era were the Texas Special and the Big Sky Blue Empire Builder cars.  I don't remember if the CSX business train was done under the original K-line or not.

 

Did they make a Milwaukee 2 pack as well?

Hancock52 posted:

GG1 4877 posted:

As I recall the only car sets that came out of the K-Lionel era were the Texas Special and the Big Sky Blue Empire Builder cars.  I don't remember if the CSX business train was done under the original K-line or not.

As we are talking about 21" cars I think that you must be right. But there are also 18" Lionel cars from the same period that I think were based on K-Line tooling, especially certain SP and possibly UP sets. These show the same similarities to K-Line passenger cars I have noted above. 

The SP Cars don't share K-Line tooling. 

This is a Lionel car:

Here is a K-Line Car:

Fluting is quite different. As nice as the K-Line cars the Lionel is much closer to the prototype.

Pete

Norton posted:

Hancock52 posted:

GG1 4877 posted:

As I recall the only car sets that came out of the K-Lionel era were the Texas Special and the Big Sky Blue Empire Builder cars.  I don't remember if the CSX business train was done under the original K-line or not.

As we are talking about 21" cars I think that you must be right. But there are also 18" Lionel cars from the same period that I think were based on K-Line tooling, especially certain SP and possibly UP sets. These show the same similarities to K-Line passenger cars I have noted above. 

The SP Cars don't share K-Line tooling. 

This is a Lionel car:

Here is a K-Line Car:

Fluting is quite different. As nice as the K-Line cars the Lionel is much closer to the prototype.

Pete

The Lionel cars are definitely closer in color and on the vestibules.  I have 18 K-line 21" Daylight cars and the color is too dark.  GGD did the set correctly though with the correct "Napoleon Hat" trucks, the articulated coaches and the 3 unit articulated diner.  For a professed "rivet counter", I'm happy with the K-line cars oddly enough.  Probably due to the very favorable pricing I got on them.

Lionel made (2) 2 pack of Milwaukee 21 inch cars too. I am still on the hunt for them. I only have one...

The best Daylight car body was the "Speer" extrusion, and even it had flaws.  K-Line wasn't even close, and the Lionel above, while closer, is still wide of the mark.

Sunset made a valiant effort, and came close.  The Speer extrusion is off by one corrugation.

Proper trucks are a headache.  The sand cast Lobaugh trucks are the only ones with correct aspect ratio and overall contour.  Most don't like them because the detail is comparatively crude.

Opinion, but I can back it up.

Here is a Speer car:You may not be able to see the alternating large and small corrugations.  Salient is the fact that they are"inset", unlike most production Pullman streamliners, where the corrugations extend outward from the flat portions of the car body.  And the shadows preclude you seeing the overall contours of the truck sideframes.  This one takes 74" radius minimum.

Some really good historical info here fellas - Thanks!

Does anyone know if the 21" B&O set from K-Line included the Observation?  The K-Line Legacy site only shows coaches (maybe a diner) & a combine in three different 2 packs from what I could tell. One pair has one car with black trucks...

The 4 car 15" set appears to be 21" cars as well in the illustration.  I have the 15" set and it has a baggage and an observation.

Was the K line tooling used for the TCA 40th anniversary set? Have a 9 car set plus the A-B-A set. Thanks Tom weaver

Did not know that K-Line made 20" cars, but I have a 21" B&O Observation.  Nice looking cars.  At the end I was having a difficult time resisting 21" cars at $75 each.

Thanks for catching my mistake with the 20" length Bob. I corrected it above.

Glad to hear there IS an observation for that set. I hope to acquire that B&O set someday...

Tom weaver posted:

Was the K line tooling used for the TCA 40th anniversary set? Have a 9 car set plus the A-B-A set. Thanks Tom weaver

The 16" Halloween colored cars with the Sky Top Observation? If so those would be Lionel.

And SHOULD have been painted in Milwaukee Road colors instead, the sales would have been phenomenal!!!  Unfortunately the TCA powers that be did not decide to do so...

this set I was referring to:  Colors not correct? 

Tom,  I'm pretty sure that the TCA set was standard issue Lionel 15" aluminum cars in the regular TCA colors. 

BobbyD posted:

Tom weaver posted:

Was the K line tooling used for the TCA 40th anniversary set? Have a 9 car set plus the A-B-A set. Thanks Tom weaver

The 16" Halloween colored cars with the Sky Top Observation? If so those would be Lionel.

And SHOULD have been painted in Milwaukee Road colors instead, the sales would have been phenomenal!!!  Unfortunately the TCA powers that be did not decide to do so...

Lionel did do a 16" set painted in Milwaukee Road colors.

GG1 4877 posted:

 

This is a Lionel car:

Here is a K-Line Car:

The Lionel cars are definitely closer in color..... 

The understatement of the year.

The K-Lines aren't anywhere in the correct universe, colorwise.