Who Runs Conventional with DCS?

That's a good idea. And I'm sorry to say it would be me to drop it............

Good info guys!

 

When I've tried DCS on my BIG (12' x 12') layout, I would switch from conventional to DCS as described but it seemed like unless I waited a few minutes between modes with power off, my PS2 locos came up in the last mode used.  Gonna have to play with that more.  My TIU/remote set usually stays with my modular layout.

 

I do use DCS on my modular layout and have used the banana plug scheme with great success, and although is seems simpler, I'll try it the recommended way described above!

 

Ed

 

ps... I missed a smiley face or two.  I thought DLO was NOT going DCS!

I've never seen it be a problem if you give them 15-20 seconds for the shutdown sequence to complete and the sound to stop.  Do you really have to wait minutes?

 

Dlo Traf,
   I ran Conventionals right with my P2 engines, sometimes right on the same tracks, with my hand held DCS remote control, it's great fun.  I also used the Z4K with side receiver for setting things up the way I wanted.  Well worth in investment IMO.
PCRR/Dave

The Conventional 1959 lionel Northern Pacific Christmas train on the inside loop and the MTH P2 NASA Train on the 2nd level outside loop all controlled by the DCS hand held remote control.


The old Conventional Williams GG-1 pulling the NASA Train on the outside loop and the MTH P2 controlled GG-1 coming into view on the inside loop all controlled by the DCS hand held remote.

I too operate my conventional through the TIU. I have the track wired just for doing conventional when I want to be able to run both at the same time, though not on the same track.

 

It works just a nice as using a transformer.

If you have a TIU on the layout but no handheld available at times I would recommend using the softkeys to shut off the DCS signal in the TIU before removing the handheld for extended periods of time. This is assuming you have PS-2/3 engines on the track. This way they will come up in conventional.

 

Switching from fixed to variable was covered by scrolling the thumb wheel after pressing TRK and addressing the variable channel.

 

menu/system/ scroll to DCS setup/ on off aon aof soft keys these turn the track signal on/off the first 2 individual tracks the next 2 all on all off FXD toggles between fixed voltage and variable voltage on the variable channels.

 

From way back in the thread. If your engine somehow ends up in conventional on a DCS track do not worry about a watchdog signal. Just address the engine and press startup and all will be well. Multiple engines like this use the All button and hit startup.

We run conventional and DCS through the DCS system at the same time. Also run TMCC/Legacy on another track at the same time. Sure it's possible to run all three at the same time with the DCS remote, but having multiple remotes allows multiple people to run their own train at the same time as someone else. We have the layout wired so all 3 mainlines can run conventional, DCS, or TMCC/Legacy.

 

It is nice to run conventional while you walk around the room, and still have control of your train by remote control. 

Ed, I have found that when power is cut, even after the sound has cut off, the PS2 board seem to stay on for awhile longer.  So what you experience is normal.  It's good for the situations where you send a loco onto an unpowered block by mistake, since it gives you a bit more time to turn on the power to the block and have the loco resume immediately without having to do a restart.

Operating both DCS and conventional engines.

 

On my layout I use two Z-4000 transformers.  One Z-4000 is used to power the track via a TIU.  The second Z-4000 is used to power the track for conventional control. Only one Z-4000 is powered at any time and is controlled using a 120v power panel that selects either Z-4000 unit 1 or Z-4000 unit 2.

 

DCS Operation using the first Z-4000: I have a separate two channel 10 ampere circuit breaker box that is used to distribute power to each TIU input. This circuit breaker box is intended to protect the TIU not the track.  I have separate 5 ampere circuit breakers on the output channels of the TIU as shown in the attachment.

 

Conventional operation using the second Z4000: I power the track directly using the second Z-4000 which is mounted on a seprate "control station". I have separate 5 ampere circuit breakers on the output channels of the Z-4000 as shown in the attachment.

 

Since I have two Z-4000s I can locate the first unit under the layout out of sight and then locate the second Z-4000 at a separate "conventional" control station. This conventional control panel has individual turnout controllers and block control toggle switches. This setup allows visitors to operate "conventional" engines without the need to operate from the DCS system.

 

These two power systems are integrated into my combination AIU and relay control system described elsewhere.

 

 

 

I must tell you, IMO this is both overkill and overly-complex.

 

Why not just power the TIU separately via the Aux. Power port and connect 1 Z4000 to a pair of variable channels? This way, you're always set up to operate both command and conventional engines at any time, including operating both together. This is how DCS is designed to be operated.

 

Also, when you operate conventional engines this way, you must do so from the Z4000. You have no walk-around capability for conventional operation.

 

Further, placing breakers between the transformer and the TIU inputs would be completely sufficient. The breakers between the transformer and the TIU are what protect the TIU and the track. The additional 5 amp breakers provide no additional protection, however, they limit power to half of what the 10 amp breakers allow.

 

Actually, the breakers in the Z4000 serve to provide all of the protection that you need, along with the TVS's in each TIU channel. If you desire backup for the Z4000's breakers, your 10 amp breakers are ample to the task. 

 

Notwithstanding my comments above, what you've done is entirely your business. After all, it's your railroad and you can build and operate it any way you desire. However, I wouldn't want anyone reading your post to believe that all this is necessary to operate conventional and command engines via DCS.

Barry, I have to disagree with you on one point.  When you operate conventional locos through a variable TIU channel, you do have walkaround control, even if you don't have the Z4k control box.  I do it.  You must, though, to power up or reset its breaker, move the Z4000 handles to 0 and then to the desired voltage

 

Also, it is not necessary to use a Z4000; any sine wave transformer works.  With a postwar ZW, leave the handles set at the max desired voltage and never touch them.

 

I do agree that using 2 Z4000 transformers like prohobby does is gross and unnecessary overkill, but MTH can use the profit.

Robert,

When you operate conventional locos through a variable TIU channel, you do have walkaround control, even if you don't have the Z4k control box

Please read his post again.

 

He's controlling the conventional trains with a Z4000 that's connected directly to the tracks, not through a TIU channel. He clearly states:

"Conventional operation using the second Z4000: I power the track directly using the second Z-4000 which is mounted on a separate "control station"."

You are correct with regards to his layout Barry, but a casual reader could take your words as applying to any layout.  Hopefully, that's now clear.

 

My son gave me a DCS set--Z4000, TIU, remote-- a few days after DCS was released.  All my locos were conventional.  For many months I enjoyed having walkaround control.  It made conventional operations a whole new world.  Some 6-8 months later I got my first PS2.

 

I suspect that of one only operates conventional, DCS may be the cheapest way to get walkaround control

 

Pasted:

Since I have two Z-4000s I can locate the first unit under the layout out of sight and then locate the second Z-4000 at a separate "conventional" control station. This conventional control panel has individual turnout controllers and block control toggle switches. This setup allows visitors to operate "conventional" engines without the need to operate from the DCS system.

 

What steps do you take to power the track from the hidden transformer as you toggle between command and conventional operation. Do you crawl under the layout and throttle down and back up to put power on the tracks. Do you use the add on device to power up the hidden transformer. Do you leave the throttles set and just toggle between transformers by shutting 110 power on and off between transformers.

Excellent comments from all Forum contributors.

 

First I have 5 amp circuit breakers on the track feeds because I usually do not run more than two engines at a time. I also want to limit short circuit current flow to 5 amps max in the event of a stalled engine or derailed engine or car even though the Z-4000 also has current limiting. The multiple circuit breakers in the system are just for backup but are optional.

 

Second when I am running conventional engines using a separate Z-4000 the DCS system TIU outputs are disconnected from the track. However the DCS is able to be used for simultaneous block control and turnout control if necessary since my AIU outputs are still functional at all times.

 

Note 1:  The first Z-4000 which is used to power the TIU is "ALWAYS" powered.  I can easily switch over to DCS control at any instant and simultaneously disconnect the second Z-4000 from the layout whenever necessary. Since I use separate  relays for control of TIU power I do not power down the Z-4000.

 

Note 2: The second Z-4000 was originally purchased as a "backup" power source. It is now setup for "visitors" who choose to run using conventional power and manual turnout and block control.  I have separate turnout control using both miniature pushbuttons or the RailKing turnout controllers (as supplied with the RealTrax turnouts on my layout).  

 

Since I also have a built-in E-Stop circuit I can always interrupt power to the track by using E-Stop buttons or wireless remote power control.  This E-Stop function is always available no matter which Z-4000 is being used.

 

Note 3: Since all turnouts are powered from a separate AC source I do not use track power to operate the turnout solenoids.  This reduces the track current requirements.

 

 

How are you disconnecting the outputs of the TIU from the track when operating

in conventional?

 

Do you power the aux of the TIU from the 14v pin from the Z4000 1 under the layout which is always on?

 

Do you run PS 2/3 engines in conventional mode when operating in conventional?

 

Quote:

 

 Only one Z-4000 is powered at any time and is controlled using a 120v power panel that selects either Z-4000 unit 1 or Z-4000 unit 2.

 

That implies only 1 Z-4000 is powered at a time and basically unplugging it by shutting off the 110 power.

Quote:

 

Note 1:  The first Z-4000 which is used to power the TIU is "ALWAYS" powered.  I can easily switch over to DCS control at any instant and simultaneously disconnect the second Z-4000 from the layout whenever necessary.

 

If your running a DCS engine and switch to conventional control by throwing a toggle the DCS engine will continue running in command mode. It will not react to voltage changes from the transformer until you completely power and restart the engine in conventional.

 

If running in conventional simply toggling to command (DCS) will not instantly put the engine in command mode. You would have to address the engine(s) and hit startup to gain command control.

 

Quote:

 

Since I also have a built-in E-Stop circuit I can always interrupt power to the track by using E-Stop buttons or wireless remote power control.  This E-Stop function is always available no matter which Z-4000 is being used.

 

The Z-4000 in conventional will not shut off when pressing E-stop. I think with the Z controller device it will shut down but maybe you have to be running in that mode. If you are in that mode you can not control the throttles.

Good comments:

 

I can connect either the TIU output or the second Z-4000 output using a separate relay circuit. Thus track voltage can be switched between the TIU output or the conventional power Z-4000 output as necessary.

 

The TIU AUX power is provided by a Z-750 brick.

 

Input AC power to both Z-4000s is controlled by separate 120 vac circuits.  I have independent master ac on/off control circuits for both Z-4000s.

 

Note 1: I do not operate conventional engines along wth DCS Proto 2 and 3 engines. Which means I always operate Proto 1 or similar conventional engines using the second Z-4000 not the DCS.

 

Note 2: My conventional engines are always "parked" on a non powered siding or removed from the layout when not used.

 

 

 

 

Dio,

I'm glad you're deciding on DCS. I think it really adds to the layout. I do think you will find yourself wishing for more PS2/3 locos, because the speed control is just soooo much better. But' that can't be avoided, now that you have a PS3 loco, you already know that.

I come away with a question, that might help me on my Christmas layout. I have a TIU now, with just Z1000s. Even if I get a Z4000 and whatever gizmos, so I can lower the voltage on the conventional track (planning to), I still can't park a conventional on a powered siding, because it will start moving, if I hit the DIR button. Correct? I'm just hearing all this talk of wonderful conventional control, with DCS, but I still need conventional blocks, I can power down. On th Christmas layout, more wiring might not be worth it. Can someone confirm this. 

I added to my above post.

 

If you use 1 transformer the 14v pin can power the TIU. I think even if the transformer throttles short the pin stays hot powering your TIU. Pressing 3 keys and a 4 click scroll will shut off the DCS signal to the layout allowing you to run any conventional or command engine in conventional mode.

 

Your handheld is still controlling the AIU for switches and sidings. The E-stop will shut off the track as all power is channeled through the TIU.

All you need to do is splice in a toggle switch to turn power off and on to a siding.

With just a 1000 brick the voltage can be controlled with the handheld and the variable voltage channels.

Well I pulled the trigger. Ordered a DCS system. I also went to Amazon and ordered Barry's book. They should both arrive about the same time. I probably will get a larger transformer down the road. I've got a Z750 brick and a couple 1033's that will do for now. I wish there was some way to smooth out the wave on my walk around system it's 275 watt. Of course I just thought I can still use that to power lighting and accessories. I'm sure I'll like it.

Since I also have a built-in E-Stop circuit I can always interrupt power to the track by using E-Stop buttons or wirelessremote power control.

When you're operating conventionally, only the wireless pushbuttons will work. E-Stop will not work because it shuts down power through the TIU channels, and you aren't using the TIU channels for power.

 

I still haven't heard a compelling reason to do the overly complicated things that you are doing.

Dlo, what do you have that's 275 watt?  It is hard to go back through thethread on my tablet.

It's a MRC dual power 027. I like it, but it's not pure sine wave and this PS3 does not like it. And I was slightly wrong, it's rated at 270 watts.

Just a note of explanation:

 

My E-Stop circuit is designed to operate using separate high current relays to interrupt the power to the TIU. I have 4 momentary action E-Stop pushbuttons mounted around my layout which will "cut off" power when activated. In addition I have a "wireless" control to also interrupt power using the very same circuit.  The pushbuttons are the same used in "industrial" safety control systems. The wiring to each of these E-Stop buttons uses low voltage, low current circuits using #22 AWG wire so there is no possible shock hazard. The "wireless" control also cuts off power coming from the Z4000 that is used for conventional power.

 

 

Who Runs Conventional with DCS...

 

I used to, but after running command control engines, the conventional stuff was just lacking in so many things I decided to install PS2 or ERR Cruise Commander/Railsounds in the couple of conventional engines I had.

 

Now I simply turn on the layout and pick the engine I want to use from the handheld menu, start it up, and go

Good to see you bought the DCS system Dlo.  I run both with mine, works great.  Some of my regular runners will be upgraded from PS1 to PS2/3 but not all.  PS1 engines work well through the DCS system and it's easy to do, don't let anyone over complicate it for you.

 

Barry's book is well worth every penny and you won't regret buying it either.  Barry is straight forward and makes things easily understood.  With DCS you can do complicated things, but Barry shows you there not complicated to do.

 

I find that in the end the people who over complicate it have never fully embraced it and are still thinking conventional in their minds.

tayco, if you really like those old PS1 locos, consider upgrading them to DCS with the upgrade kits.  I did that to all of mine and have never regretted it.  Try running conventional through the TIU; once you've tried walkaround, you'll be sorry you didn't sooner.

 

By the way, your link to a pictire or whatever didn't work.

Gentlemen,

   RJR is absolutely correct, set it up for the remote control walk around, I ran all my conventionals in this manner, also with the Wireless remote control power on off

switches from either Stanley or Eteckcity, you can now use either of these remote control electrical switches as emergeny shut down for your entire layout.  In fact the Eteckcity remote on/off switches are programmable and come with 2 remote control hand helds, for each 5 switch pack.  Purchase 2 sets @ $30.00 a set and place all 4 of the remote control hand helds thru out your layout for incredible emergency full shut down.  Set your ZW's for running your conventionals and never have to mess with your ZW levers again, on/off from the Eteckcity remote control, and still use the DCS remote for engine speed control.  The Z4k levers will need to be reset to recycle the Z4K for running, if you use both ZW's & Z4k's for powering your layout.  A simply great set up for both Conventionals and P2/P3 running.  Not sure how the Legacy/TMCC will be effected, right now my layouts are DCS only, that will change as of the next layout however.  Command Control Fastrack switches should be way cool with all this other remote technology.

 

PCRR/Dave