Sufficient and fair to whom? With the new MTH parts dept up and running that’s where you need to try first for the parts. I don’t think $35.00 is even close to what you’ll need.

I would say no; getting the replacement parts and installing them (if you have someone do it) will surely cost way more than $35.00.

Quotes from the listing:

"This item has been graded per TCA standards C-7: Excellent. This item has been serviced by our repair department." Oh? C-7 Excellent?? Why were the broken couplers not mentioned in the listing?

"Please check the photos for a detailed look at this item." The missing/broken couplers are visible in the listing's distant photos.

Overall condition is Excellent."   Again, I would not consider a train with a fried board and major coupler problems "excellent" condition; I would return it or try for a better credit; closer to $100.00 would be more reasonably when considering the parts/labor to repair it.

John, I had a similar experience buying from Trainz.  A 1977 passenger set's (New in Box) original plastic internal carton had deteriorated and also looked to have been dropped before it came to me.  The initial refund amount they proposed seemed low to me.  They did also offer to take the whole set back, but I wanted to keep it.  After sending them pictures of everything and emails back and forth spanning a few weeks, they eventually agreed to my counter offer.  My counter was based on replacement costs I found with some help from Members of this Forum.  MTH Parts or The Train Tender may be a good place to find what you need, once you figure out what.

In the end, I think Trainz was fair and I would buy from them again.  Throughout the entire process, they were courteous and did their best to make sure I was satisfied.

That's encouraging Steve,

Thanks.   The Train Tender doesn't stock MTH parts as far as I know though.  I have only repaired Lionel myself.

Thanks for all the input so far.  I saw one other complaint about Trainz (a forum sponsor) a few months ago, but the owner got involved in the thread and it seemed to be resolved so I didn't hesitate.  That's what is great about this forum.  I told the CSR that I was a member in good standing of this forum.  I pretty much only buy what I need from forum sponsors to support their efforts.

I bought this (rated "excellent") set with the understanding that there was a fried motherboard and that the cars were OK.  I actually bought it over the phone through a salesman that works for Trainz and asked these questions.  I looked at the listing on the web site and based upon what the salesman told me I ordered it over the phone.

John

While I have ordered from this vendor often and have had mostly positive experiences, business is business.  If it is not as advertised I wouldn't hesitate to request a full refund for a return or negotiate the actual cost for parts for anything beyond the defects noted to you prior to purchasing.

The answer to the question is no, you can't even buy the parts for $35!  I'd be looking for more than that or return the set.

When I see that many broken couplers, I strongly suspect zinc rot. It may have even happened in transit! I had 5 out of 17 MTH RK High Cube boxcars with zinc rot, and 2/5 made themselves known upon arrival to the buyer. I didn’t send them that way!

Why would anyone want to continue to do business with a company they believe had engaged in false and deceptive advertising ?

Trainz is good about returns they will send you a shipping lable for free. I'd send them back as the CSRs are very limited on how much credit they can give.

@Mark V. Spadaro posted:

When I see that many broken couplers, I strongly suspect zinc rot. It may have even happened in transit! I had 5 out of 17 MTH RK High Cube boxcars with zinc rot, and 2/5 made themselves known upon arrival to the buyer. I didn’t send them that way!

Mark hit this on the head, you’d best check all the couplers over real good, ….although Trainz needs to make this right, ( their tech missed the obvious) the broken parts are a result of crumbling parts, not shipping damage……the shipping just exaggerated the crumbling,…35.00 bucks ain’t gonna fix it,….75.00 bucks would be more like it,….

Pat  

This is the offer I got this morning

"Hello John,

Unfortunately our parts department was not able to locate the needed couplers. As this is the case we would like to offer a $35.00 adjustment. Please let us know if this is acceptable and we will process the adjustment.

Let me know if you have any questions.

In Your Service,

Frankie
Customer Service"

Here is the section of their website entitled "MTH Train Parts"

https://www.trainz.com/collections/mth-train-parts

I don't see why they couldn't fix the set they sold me.

Are the parts even available?

John

If TRAINZ sold this to you "as is"; then take what you can get.

I have had various issues with them over the years. Like substituting parts for actual parts or missing and broken parts not disclosed properly.

However, I don't know if the substitution or missing or broken was their doing or it came from the gut they bought the item from; and they were just passing on while selling it.

Buyer Beware.

If your dead set on keeping it, $35.00 is probably all you'll get. The 100s of parts on hand may not be what you need. The CSR's are very limited on how much credit they can give. They will pay the return shipping if you don't want it.

@AlanRail posted:

If TRAINZ sold this to you "as is"; then take what you can get.

I have had various issues with them over the years. Like substituting parts for actual parts or missing and broken parts not disclosed properly.

However, I don't know if the substitution or missing or broken was their doing or it came from the gut they bought the item from; and they were just passing on while selling it.

Buyer Beware.

As I said, I called a CSR to ask about it, told him that I only wanted it for add-on cars to my other set.  I doubt he knew about all the defective couplers or he would have said so for my application.  How would he have known when it wasn't part of the description?  He took my order over the phone.

John

@PRRMP54 posted:

...

Overall condition is Excellent."   Again, I would not consider a train with a fried board and major coupler problems "excellent" condition; I would return it or try for a better credit; closer to $100.00 would be more reasonably when considering the parts/labor to repair it.

Fully agree with your points.  One problem I have with the description is that it jumps back and forth between current TCA grading nomenclature (C-7, etc.) and the old term ("excellent").  While broken couplers should not exist on an item that is graded C-7, it should be noted that a fried board could qualify.  The TCA guidelines, at least the latest version I saw, explicitly refer only to cosmetic condition.  IMO, this is a major shortcoming - the standards  should include some kind of grading for electronics / operation.

Send it back.  Why go through all the effort as there will another one up for sale sooner or later.

They listed it at C-7. As a minimum I'd demand 30% (190x.3) $57. Even with that, you probably have insufficient funds to repair.

They sold the same set in September and stated in that listing two cars had broken couplers. I assume the first buyer returned it as should you.

Gunny

First.  None of the subways mechanical parts are available on the new site yet.
with that said I would send them back with them paying shipping.  They are a bunch of thief’s.  They charge top dollar for junk

@gunny posted:

They sold the same set in September and stated in that listing two cars had broken couplers. I assume the first buyer returned it as should you.

Gunny

I paid around $32 for shipping.  I assume they will not refund that so I will be out $32.

Likewise I assume the other person who apparently returned the same set in September also lost on shipping with nothing to show for it.

As will the third if I return it.

John

@bluelinec4 posted:

First.  None of the subways mechanical parts are available on the new site yet.
with that said I would send them back with them paying shipping.  They are a bunch of thief’s.  They charge top dollar for junk

No parts?  Not even coupler parts?

If they pay me for my original shipping plus my return shipping I'll take it, but I suspect I will have to eat $32 for initial shipping for misrepresented merchandise.

John

@Craftech posted:

No parts?  Not even coupler parts?

If they pay me for my original shipping plus my return shipping I'll take it, but I suspect I will have to eat $32 for initial shipping for misrepresented merchandise.

John

I've returned several items that were unsatisfactory and the always gave a full refund which includes shipping. Fortunatly I've bought far more good than bad so I still buy from Trainz occasionally.

@Craftech posted:

No parts?  Not even coupler parts?

If they pay me for my original shipping plus my return shipping I'll take it, but I suspect I will have to eat $32 for initial shipping for misrepresented merchandise.

John

That shows what kind of business they are.  $32 for shippping.  I sell a lot on various sites and I guarantee you those three cars didn’t cost 32 to ship

Why not put Kadee couplers # 805 on them?

@bluelinec4 posted:

That shows what kind of business they are.  $32 for shippping.  I sell a lot on various sites and I guarantee you those three cars didn’t cost 32 to ship

I’m not defending Trainz, ….but your above comment is comparing apples to oranges with out looking at the bigger picture,….some of y’all cry about shipping,…a lot of you do,……stuff doesn’t pack itself, if it did, sure 32 bucks is high,……but it didn’t pack itself up, somebody had to pack it up,……and that somebody has to get paid to pack it up,….the folks that do the packing and shipping at Scott’s place are there for a job,….Scott has to pay them to do a job,…..Scott isn’t going to lose money paying people to pack and ship stuff,…..think about it, and you’ll realize how silly your comment is…….🙄

Pat

Well, I will defend Trainz.  I don't recall how many shipments I have received from Trainz but I have a stack of their little statements that come with the trains I buy.  They do a very good job on packing.  In general things are as they describe.  Does that mean that everybody's opinion as to condition is the same, not really.

If as in this case you are not satisfied, send it back, get your refund and spend it on something else.

@harmonyards posted:

I’m not defending Trainz, ….but your above comment is comparing apples to oranges with out looking at the bigger picture,….some of y’all cry about shipping,…a lot of you do,……stuff doesn’t pack itself, if it did, sure 32 bucks is high,……but it didn’t pack itself up, somebody had to pack it up,……and that somebody has to get paid to pack it up,….the folks that do the packing and shipping at Scott’s place are there for a job,….Scott has to pay them to do a job,…..Scott isn’t going to lose money paying people to pack and ship stuff,…..think about it, and you’ll realize how silly your comment is…….🙄

Pat

Pat

I thought about it  The comment isnt silly   The price they pay for stuff and then sell it at crazy prices without even checking it should pay for people to pack it  Like I said I do alot of shipping  32 dollars is a crazy price for three cars unless they have Elon Musk doing the shipping    I was burned by these guys twice and their attitude on the phone was  like tough luck   So my apples and oranges dont change the big picture and I am not crying    The original poster was insulted by these guys with a 35 dollar offer to replace 70 dollars worth of parts   He should send the junk back to them and demand full refund with return shipping

@Craftech - boy did you trigger a discussion. I bought nearly all of my stuff used from Trainz or the auction houses. I've had a couple of problems which were resolved out of maybe a hundred orders. $35 is not going to cover the fix, so you have to decide to ask for more, return the set or keep it with the credit. Of all the used equipment vendors, Trainz lists the shipping before you buy. You get to decide if the total all in cost is reasonable or not.

I bought an Atlas car though the bay, the box had never been opened, so technically factory new, and I would not expect the seller to open a "new box". Both couplers ended up having zinc pest. So who is responsible? The seller properly described the car as new in box. (Zinc pest is a manufacturing defect in China, the rest of the western world figured out how to stop it in the 1930s.) But should the vendor be responsible for a defect in a box that was on the shelf for years - warranty is only 1 year. Since the car was rather unusual there was no way I was going to return it. I did end up with a reasonable solution with Atlas.

Unless you are buying from an owner who operated their equipment, the big boys simply do not have the time to inspect every item they receive and turn over to sell. For me its a bit of a risk, but I deal with the guys who have reasonable shipping costs and are willing to make it right if an item is not as described. After we are buying used stuff. 

@ScoutingDad posted:

@Craftech - boy did you trigger a discussion. I bought nearly all of my stuff used from Trainz or the auction houses. I've had a couple of problems which were resolved out of maybe a hundred orders. $35 is not going to cover the fix, so you have to decide to ask for more, return the set or keep it with the credit. Of all the used equipment vendors, Trainz lists the shipping before you buy. You get to decide if the total all in cost is reasonable or not.

Unless you are buying from an owner who operated their equipment, the big boys simply do not have the time to inspect every item they receive and turn over to sell. For me its a bit of a risk, but I deal with the guys who have reasonable shipping costs and are willing to make it right if an item is not as described. After we are buying used stuff.

I have purchased from Trainz one other time and did not have a problem.

In fact they DO inspect the item and include the inspection slip on the page with the item and in the box when you receive the item.  I can assure you the defective couplers were NOT mentioned on that inspection slip [SEE BELOW].  Again, I knew the engine was useless, but I only wanted the three cars for add-ons as I explained to the CSR who sold it to me over the phone. I asked him if the lights worked and he said, "I don't see why not"?  He couldn't even tell if the lights worked from the inspection slip.  Take a look

All of it was shipped in the MTH set box with double boxing.

I just want what I paid for.

John

Progress Report:

Here is the response when I asked for between $80 and $100 credit

@Craftech posted:

Progress Report:

Here is the response when I asked for between $80 and $100 credit

John

On Tuesday, November 9, 2021, 10:03:42 AM EST, Trainz <trainzcs@trainz.com> wrote:

Hi John,

Thanks for getting back to us. While the couplers should have been mentioned in the description, the photos showed that couplers were broken/missing. We've addressed this with the proper department in regards to adding this to the written description. Unfortunately, we will not be able to issue the requested adjustment. Would you prefer a return label to be emailed or mailed to you for a full refund?

In Your Service,

Jessica
Customer Service

So to meet them half way I responded with a counter offer:

How about a credit equal to the original shipping plus the return shipping?  That has to be fair.

John

Send them back as the CSRs are very limited on how much credit they can give. Trainz is good about returns they will send you a shipping lable for free for the entire purchase price including shipping. 

Send them back no matter what. I know those cars are to find but they do exist somewhere for sale. In this hobby a successful search can be part of the fun. Start by contacting all of the advertisers listed here - even by phone if need be. Good luck.

Hey John (& Everyone Else!)

I spent some time researching what happened here, so I wanted to explain, and shed some light on our customer service polices to everyone.

First off, out of the gate, we screwed up a few times on this one ... First our repair tech should have noted the issue with the defective couplers and could have mentioned that we didn't have them in stock, or he would have fixed them. He is new to us and working on trains. Next our copywriter should have pointed it out too. Then the $35, later on this ...

Our overall customer service policy is to take care of our customers. I think I have firmly instilled into our customer service team (6 people, BTW) the concept of grace.

Here is our standard process to handle post-sale issues, unless we listed it as-is:

Ask the buyer what they would prefer to do:

1. Tell us what you think a fair adjustment would be.
2. We can send you a return label and we will offer you a full refund including your original shipping cost.
3. If it is a missing parts issue, we can send you the parts at no charge if we have them
4. We can send you a return label and we will do our best to repair it and send it back

Then we do what is requested within reason. If we can't agree on #1, then we go to #2 and just send it back.

We really do bend over backwards to make whatever situation right. Primarily if it is our fault, but even when it is not. This is all good until we feel like we are being taken advantage of, then we don't.

Ok, with all that said, The $35 came from our part department with an estimate of what the couplers "should" cost. $5 x 5 for the mechanical ones and $10 for the electro coupler. So that is what he told customer service to offer. Now if the couplers aren't available that's another whole problem as we find ourselves in.  I assume John probably responded to our "what would you like us to email" with what do we think is fair and our Cs person checked with our parts dept. since they have no idea what couplers cost.

After this thread surfaced we did check with MTH Parts to see if they had these couplers and they do not. :-(

So that's what we did. As we can all see, this is not a great outcome, so that's not cool.

I accept responsibility for it and want to make it right.

John, please let us know what you would like to do and we will take care of you and thanks for your business and sorry for the trouble here.

p.s. If anyone has these couplers, let me know!

Scott, What a nice reply to an impossible situation.

I'm impressed with trainz and their policy.

I'm not sure what else you could expect trainz to do?

@Scott@Trainz posted:

Hey John (& Everyone Else!)

I spent some time researching what happened here, so I wanted to explain, and shed some light on our customer service polices to everyone.

Scott, classy answer and solution, I'm happy to see this.  Although I've had a few "misses" with shipments from Trainz, however you folks have always made it right, hard to do better than that.

As for the coupler parts, since I don't have a parts listing or good descriptions, it's hard to say.  I have a ton of mechanical couplers around, so it's a matter of matching up what I have to what is needed.  I'm sure many of us are in the same boat.  The same with the electrocoupler.

I have bought from Trainz and found them to be honest and fair; that said in my opinion the OP, the buyer may have hoped by putting this out in a semi-public forum the pressure would be on Trainz to agree to his idea of what is right.

To many it might seem the OPs request is fair and equitable, however from a business person's perspective maintaining a policy so as not to be taken advantage of by less than scrupulous customers is fundamental. This is not to say the OP was anything less than honest and reasonable; rather for Trainz  to accommodate his request could lead to an open door for customers in the future who want to craft a deal they feel is fair and if not; whether intentional or not use the leverage of "bad press" to pressure Trainz. This is the reason for Trainz to stick with policy.

Many times the public airing of dissatisfaction by one party is intended to pressure the other party. We often see this in YELP reviews. I believe the TRAINZ return policy is fair, if the buyer is not happy the deal is cancelled at no cost to the buyer. Mistakes happen and it is unfortunate,  I believe Trainz has been fair and I appreciate what I believe is a great policy well thought out.

@Fast Mail posted:

I believe Trainz has been fair and I appreciate what I believe is a great policy well thought out.

You are certainly spot-on, I can't see any complaint with the return policy, a full refund including return shipping is certainly very fair!

I'm coming from the direction that I'd like to see everyone satisfied, it's obvious that John would like to keep these, hopefully it can be worked out where everyone is happy.

John,

Today I am your new public customer service rep. (Even though I am on vacation). I want you to be happy with a fair adjustment that you will be happy with, or you can return it. I think Jessica did a great job here with the knowledge that she had at the time. After all you read here, what do you think is fair if you want to keep them? In case you don’t know I am the owner.

Everyone else - If you get in a really difficult/strange situation with our CS team, and Jessica, the leader of that team, can’t resolve it in a reasonable way. You can ask her to escalate it to her manager, Rick, and if that still doesn’t satisfy you, ask her to get me involved. Please just work the system I have designed to take care of you instead of jumping to me. Thanks for your understanding!