Williams Trains (what happened to them since being acquired by Bachmann)

They're probably keeping stock low and trying to capitalize on the whole "Limited Run" trend which seems to be the way the Importers are all headed.

One wonders about the future of Williams, come to think of it. With the entire 3RO customer base continuing to slip, probably permanently, there is just less audience for actors on the stage. As Williams' philosophy has been based on simplicity rather than complexity in their post-brass era, one wonders if there is a place for models not having Bluetooth and smoking bells and leaking tenders. Some Williams stuff I think highly of, and those items are even decent scale models, but much of it is really pretty, well, you know....

Maybe WBB is just taking time off to re-imagine their products. Even they may have to imagine command control and cruise. I wonder how profitable Williams is for Bachmann, actually? I have absolutely no idea.

Williams and Bachmann never seemed like a good fit to me, but, literally, what do I know?

We're currently working on a review of a new Williams by Bachmann offering for the next issue of the magazine: An Amtrak F59-PHI.

I think Bachmann priced Williams out of the market.  For example, the WBB O27 conventional Alco FA's MSRP for $50.00 more than Lionel's LionChief+ versions.

I know which one I'd get if I was in the market for them.

Rusty

Always expecting to see an OGR ad from Williams for passenger cars with interiors when I hear of the "close outs" at retailers. WBB list prices may be high, what are the actual street prices? Looking forward to the review Alan. For the most part Williams stuff seems to run forever without issues.

I still pick up some Williams here and there. Especially the ones I missed from the Golden Memories series. But I shop carefully on pricing.

Btw, Western Depot still maintains a good inventory of Williams.

Williams locos have a reputation for high quality and long trouble free running. I have converted a number to bluetooth and they all run beautifully.

I have noticed the same thing. MaPa and Just trains used to be my go to sources for Williams and they had tons of everything at good prices. MaPa is gone and there is next to nothing on the JT site. No other retailers come close to the selection or prices of those two stores. Bachmann has set ridiculous prices for the entire line, though some will say that isn't representative of actual street prices, they are still a little on the high side when you compare them to the other manufacturers stuff for what you are getting. 

BOB WALKER posted:

Williams locos have a reputation for high quality and long trouble free running. I have converted a number to bluetooth and they all run beautifully.

Yes, that is where they often really shine. Their die-cast steamers are geared poorly - except for the Ten-Wheeler, which has scale-model-gearing (go figure) - but the diesels/electrics, while a touch zoomy, are not bad. And are usually mechanically sound. Their Alco FA is a decent an accurate model as their earlier PA was a poor one.

I hope that they stay around, pretty much as they are: presentable, basic if you like it that way, easily upgradeable if you don't. But work on that gearing, Mr WbB.

To me since WBB took over the prices they said would not increase sharply have gone through the roof. You can buy TMCC engines and proto sound ( 1, 2, 3 ) engines new in box for less. I use to love Williams but to me ( sorry if I offend someone ) only a fool would goto there site to buy one. When train world, Mario's, and other's offer them at such a lower price. I have some older Williams and even some WBB but they where bought used. Now to me train world has the best prices, IE Scale GG-1 with True Blast Plus is only $299.99, to me that's a good price. 

Williams by Bauchman is slightly better than regular williams. Even though in the beginning they had products that they didnt produce in the end that ran nice, WBB did some intresting things. New handrails, toolings and sounds now in many models.

This is a good thread and I hope someone from WBB chimes in, like Some forum members that really know what’s going on.  Many years ago, in the 70’s I purchased a SD45 undecorated from Peter Bianco, TrainWorld in NY.  Either way, it was dual can motors. $99.  That was a deal, had it painted L&N at the time, and everything was Conventional operation at that time. Williams was considered great in operation, it was like a Timex, took a licking and kept on Ticking..There is a place for that kind of product today for those that want simplicity.  Happy Railroading.

leapinlarry posted:

This is a good thread and I hope someone from WBB chimes in, like Some forum members that really know what’s going on.  Many years ago, in the 70’s I purchased a SD45 undecorated from Peter Bianco, TrainWorld in NY.  Either way, it was dual can motors. $99.  That was a deal, had it painted L&N at the time, and everything was Conventional operation at that time. Williams was considered great in operation, it was like a Timex, took a licking and kept on Kicking...There is a place for that kind of product today for those that want simplicity.  Happy Railroading.

In this case it was pretty easy.  The cab was already grey.

Hi Bill, thank you very much for the pictures...Wow, that’s how my SD45 was painted.  L&N, and Hale Meacham, Meachams Variety store, was a great repair man and rebuilder, located on Gallatan road in Nashville Tennessee.  No longer in business, and is deceased.  We used to visit his store every Friday for the latest in Lionel train news....A fun day every week for 15 or 20 years.....Things sure have changed, and always looking for L&N items. I appreciate your reply. Happy Railroading.

Mike D posted:

I have noticed the same thing. MaPa and Just trains used to be my go to sources for Williams and they had tons of everything at good prices. MaPa is gone and there is next to nothing on the JT site. No other retailers come close to the selection or prices of those two stores. Bachmann has set ridiculous prices for the entire line, though some will say that isn't representative of actual street prices, they are still a little on the high side when you compare them to the other manufacturers stuff for what you are getting. 

I purchased some Williams from MaPa and it was my opinion that they would run over to the Williams warehouse and pick up the item that I wanted.  It is not a bad thing but it seemed that way.  Is it possible the WBB has cut out smaller dealers in favor of the most established larger stores.  For example if you were not a B retailer prior to the purchase were you allowed to become one.  Some of them might not have been able to meet credit requirements or did not want the bs of dealing with a large company.

I love my Williams locomotives.  Many E7, F3, Genesis locos amongst others.

The older Williams by Bachmann with the original True Blast sound were great runners (diesels anyway) and they were fairly inexpensive. Times have changed and their basic GP38 is $429.00.... hmmm sorry but I would rather invest in a used MTH for half that or less. Or a New Lionel for about that. Also the MTH and or Lionel would give you better sound options, better control (Williams is still conventionally controlled?) It's a clear winner at $149.00 to have something for carpet central but at $429.00 who are you kidding. It would be like a car salesman trying to convince you that a Buick is just as good as a Cadillac 

While l heard for years how good Williams was as a reliable runner (not true for steam?, which l would have bought) but they seemed to repo the same roadnames and prototypes l was not buying from any maker.  I think the only Williams l have is a couple of flea market found Williams kits! for passenger coaches.

SPSF posted:

They're probably keeping stock low and trying to capitalize on the whole "Limited Run" trend which seems to be the way the Importers are all headed.

SOP in todays world.  Just in time delivery, BtO manufacturing, make them & ship them.....keeping inventory is a cost center. 

PLENTY of Williams and WbB for sale out there net and ebay. I have about a 3 to 1 bias toward Williams all bought since 1995. 

One more issue... Their rolling Stock.. sure it looks nice but it is basically old Kusan molds (some of it) and they are asking $76.00 for a boxcar. A 6464 style boxcar for $76.00 or I could find a Real postwar 6464 boxcar. Or a Atlas Trainman (much better trucks than the WBB) and for $50.00

WbB MSRP and the real world street price are light years apart. 

I agree high compare to almost the same Menard's cars.

Williams is perfect for me. Good looks, great performance, and moderately priced. Even though I can afford it, I cannot imagine ever paying $500 plus from the other guys for a part time hobby. 

ENP1976 posted:

One more issue... Their rolling Stock.. sure it looks nice but it is basically old Kusan molds (some of it) and they are asking $76.00 for a boxcar. A 6464 style boxcar for $76.00 or I could find a Real postwar 6464 boxcar. Or a Atlas Trainman (much better trucks than the WBB) and for $50.00

I don’t understand the tactic of quoting only the supposed MSRP.  Nobody actually charges that.

IC fan posted:

ENP1976 posted:

One more issue... Their rolling Stock.. sure it looks nice but it is basically old Kusan molds (some of it) and they are asking $76.00 for a boxcar. A 6464 style boxcar for $76.00 or I could find a Real postwar 6464 boxcar. Or a Atlas Trainman (much better trucks than the WBB) and for $50.00

I don’t understand the tactic of quoting only the supposed MSRP.  Nobody actually charges that.

Granted, discounts on WBB abound.  But, that's the price shown in the catalog and on their website and is a baseline for comparison.

Rusty

I have seen full MSRP in small hobby shops in Maryland.

IC fan posted:

I don’t understand the tactic of quoting only the supposed MSRP.  Nobody actually charges that.

This might actually be a way of protecting their dealers.  Put the MSRP up so high that you will be enticed to look for a better price at one of their dealers.  If you want to purchase it from WBB, then you pay full MSRP.  This is a lot better than undercutting the dealers, as has been done in the past by some importers.

Tom

 - I agree, the MSRP is more than likely to protect their dealers.  Trainland and Marios offer deep discounts on Williams products.  All my Williams and WbB locos run terrific and are very reliable.  Their scale G4 tonner which came out a couple years o was a fine engine for the money.  I love mine!  

I would buy an F59 if they offered a few other road names, and cars.  Caltrain Baby Bullet, MARC Rail. 

How about those nice HO Bachmann Amtrak Cities Sprinters in an O Scale ?

I have been a collector and operator of 3 rail Trains since 1975.  It's not what has happened to Williams (now Williams by Bachmann) Trains but the real question is --- What Has Happened to the entire 3 Rail Train Market over the years since  "Modern Trains" came onto the scene.  The answer is the demand for the product has dropped.  What is our children interested in today?  Certainly not trains.  Kids today want I-Pads, I-Phones, Androids, Electronic Games, etc.  We are a connected society linked by  these great electronic devices.  We are governed by the automobile.  Amtrak struggles to stay alive.  I visited Chicago in the Spring of 2016 and rode a few of the Subway-Elevated Lines.  Everyone in the subway-el train cars was on some kind of electronic device.  We carry our computer in our pocket.  When I go to a fast-food restaurant, people all over the restaurant are using some kind of electronic device to stay connected.  It's not that our model train companies are not trying, they are working hard to bring out fantastic products (Lionel, MTH,  Atlas, Menards, Ross, etc -- the beat goes on)  but the pie is getting very close to disappearing.  Why?  Because of demand.  What I paid $900 for a Hudson Steam Loco in the 1980's fetches a mere $300 dollars (if I am lucky) in today's market.  We in America promote only things that sell and make money.  Trains do not sell very well except to a very select few.  The average age (I am assuming) at my TCA Train Show in Cincinnati, Ohio is around  50 years  and when these people pass on, no new members are showing up at the door to take their place.  Prices are going higher every year.  Back in the late 70's, one could buy Model Trains at decent prices, now we have trains that do everything but they are paid for with extremely high prices.  Train shops are all but gone, I think we have 2 or 3 train shops in the greater Cincinnati, Ohio area and most carry a very scant amount of Lionel Trains.  One dealer has a larger inventory of MTH Trains but he is 40 minutes North of Cincinnati, Ohio.  The prices of Electric Trains continues to increase at an alarming rate and 90% of them are made in the Orient.  Personally, I think back in the 1970s when Lionel was taken over by General Mills, they tried to make "good" electric trains but they did not keep up with the electronics of the day.  It took Lionel years to get to the newest of the new --- Vision Line, etc.  Cincinnati has not had a major train show at our Convention Center in over 10 years.  The last train show I went to at the Duke Convention Center, the talk with the "Big" dealers was they were not coming back as they could not sell anything.  It is a mind set.  No demand and higher prices equals no business.  I have no answer for this perplexing problem.  The only thing I know is I love 3 rail trains and still have a modest collection.

Added 3/3/2019:  Yes, I have a modest collection of Williams-Williams by Bachmann Electric Trains.  The steam engines run "well".  I particularly like the copy of the Lionel Berkshire Type Locomotive.  I have a few of them and my L&N and Baltimore & Ohio Locos run beautifully.  They are tough and I have never had a problem with them.  Sort of "bullet proof".  My favorite Diesel is the Williams Copy of the Lionel NW-2 EMD Switcher.  Where as Lionel uses only one AC motor, Williams uses 2 DC Can Motors, True Blast Horn, Bell with Diesel Sounds.  Lionel never put in a Plastic Window Insert where as Williams-Williams by Bachmann uses Clear Plastic Styrene Windows.  I found the Williams-Wms by B Engines had 2 minor problems.  #1.  All the Clear Styrene Windows in the early Williams Diesels fell out inside the cab because the glue dried up. I replaced  the Windows with Clear Plastic Styrene from the Hobby Shop and hot glued them back in place.  For me, it was a difficult job--cutting the Styrene to size and gluing the windows in the cab.  But I finally did it by keeping my hands washed of greasy finger prints and keeping a steady hand.  #2.  Williams-Wms by B Engines have a problem with the Plastic Front Marker Lanterns --- they do not light up.  Why?  Because Williams did not use the correct lanterns.  If you examine the Marker Lanterns inside the cab of a Lionel NW-2 (Postwar) Diesels, the lanterns in the cab have curves to them.  These curves face the Light Bulb and the light reflects into the lanterns.  In a darkened room, the Marker Lantern are very bright.  Compare all Williams NW-2 Diesels and they copied the wrong Marker Lanterns from Lionel.  They copied the Lanterns used in a Modern Lionel Port Hole Caboose that had "no" curves in them and used a soldiering iron to melt the plastic to hold them in place.  My fix was to gently rock the Williams Marker Lanterns back & forth and remove them from the cab.  I replaced them with new clear post-war Lionel Lanterns with right and left curves, bought from my friendly Lionel Parts Dealer.  The Williams Lanterns are a bit smaller than the Lionel Post War Lanterns.  So I had to make the holes larger in the Wms Cab. I used a micro-square file and gently by trail and error opened the holes to accommodate the "new" Lionel Curved Marker Lanterns.  To hold them in, I used a very small drop of "Super Glue".  Now all my Williams, Williams by Bachmann Diesels have bright Marker Lanterns when operating in darkened rooms.  One other thing I did to the Williams Engines----I put a small square heat reflecting tape (otherwise known as a heat sink) in the inside roof of the cab to dissipate the heat from the front lightbulb so no distortion to the roof would happen.  You can buy a roll of this Aluminum Tape at your big box stores that sells for about $8.00 a role. (It will last forever).   This tape is exactly what your Heating & Air-Conditioning Person uses to seal the cracks in heat/air conditioning ducts to prevent heat loss.                      

Sincerely yours,  railbear601

Tom Densel posted:

IC fan posted:

I don’t understand the tactic of quoting only the supposed MSRP.  Nobody actually charges that.

This might actually be a way of protecting their dealers.  Put the MSRP up so high that you will be enticed to look for a better price at one of their dealers.  If you want to purchase it from WBB, then you pay full MSRP.  This is a lot better than undercutting the dealers, as has been done in the past by some importers.

Tom

At one time Bachmann tried to make the dealers only list the MSRP,  but Maryland for one Told Bachmann they could not control the printed price a dealer list an item for. This was back when MAPA was still in business. 

One thing to note, which I don't think is covered above, is that their website is more of a "store" than a place to go for a good online catalog.  This is a big contrast from a site like MTH's, which is a good resource to research all their products, and if you want to purchase and they have inventory available you can purchase it at MSRP online.

I have a GP30 purchased from one of the big online dealers for well under MSRP (around 4 yrs ago) which is awesome.  For slower startups I wired the can motors "in series" at the direction of folks on this forum and couldn't be happier with the engine.  I also really want to pick up a couple of the 44 ton switchers, just waiting to see a couple pop up here on the for-sale forum.

rtraincollector posted:

Tom Densel posted:

IC fan posted:

I don’t understand the tactic of quoting only the supposed MSRP.  Nobody actually charges that.

This might actually be a way of protecting their dealers.  Put the MSRP up so high that you will be enticed to look for a better price at one of their dealers.  If you want to purchase it from WBB, then you pay full MSRP.  This is a lot better than undercutting the dealers, as has been done in the past by some importers.

Tom

At one time Bachmann tried to make the dealers only list the MSRP,  but Maryland for one Told Bachmann they could not control the printed price a dealer list an item for. This was back when MAPA was still in business. 

What is MAPA?

Alan Miller:

Sorry to say the other magazine beat you to it, they have a review of the WBB F59 in the latest issue.

Mallard4468 posted:

rtraincollector posted:

Tom Densel posted:

IC fan posted:

I don’t understand the tactic of quoting only the supposed MSRP.  Nobody actually charges that.

This might actually be a way of protecting their dealers.  Put the MSRP up so high that you will be enticed to look for a better price at one of their dealers.  If you want to purchase it from WBB, then you pay full MSRP.  This is a lot better than undercutting the dealers, as has been done in the past by some importers.

Tom

At one time Bachmann tried to make the dealers only list the MSRP,  but Maryland for one Told Bachmann they could not control the printed price a dealer list an item for. This was back when MAPA was still in business. 

What is MAPA?

MA PA railroad train store, Marty had a train store in MD and he would goto Philly about once a week to Bachmann to pick up Williams by Bachmann before that he would go there in MD to get them.  

MAPA = Maryland and Pennsylvania rail road. His store was called MAPA railroad if I remember correctly. 

rtraincollector posted:

Mallard4468 posted:

rtraincollector posted:

Tom Densel posted:

IC fan posted:

I don’t understand the tactic of quoting only the supposed MSRP.  Nobody actually charges that.

This might actually be a way of protecting their dealers.  Put the MSRP up so high that you will be enticed to look for a better price at one of their dealers.  If you want to purchase it from WBB, then you pay full MSRP.  This is a lot better than undercutting the dealers, as has been done in the past by some importers.

Tom

At one time Bachmann tried to make the dealers only list the MSRP,  but Maryland for one Told Bachmann they could not control the printed price a dealer list an item for. This was back when MAPA was still in business. 

What is MAPA?

MA PA railroad train store, Marty had a train store in MD and he would goto Philly about once a week to Bachmann to pick up Williams by Bachmann before that he would go there in MD to get them.  

MAPA = Maryland and Pennsylvania rail road. His store was called MAPA railroad if I remember correctly. 

Now that's some Memory Lane stuff there.

I bought a load of Williams from Marty back in those days.

I believe that it has come to the point where conventional O gauge trains are in a narrow niche market. As the demand falls, the prices rise sharply and buying habits change. Bachmann now has to compete with the more full featured Lionchief locos.  While I still run 100% conventional with locos of Eastern fallen flag road names of the 40's and 50's era; its hard to justify new buys when the layout is overstocked withengines. It would not surprise me if Bachmann discontinues the O gauge line and focuses on HO as Atlas is doing.

IC fan posted:

ENP1976 posted:

One more issue... Their rolling Stock.. sure it looks nice but it is basically old Kusan molds (some of it) and they are asking $76.00 for a boxcar. A 6464 style boxcar for $76.00 or I could find a Real postwar 6464 boxcar. Or a Atlas Trainman (much better trucks than the WBB) and for $50.00

I don’t understand the tactic of quoting only the supposed MSRP.  Nobody actually charges that.

You must not have been to many small hobby shops. Yes some small to mid size retailers DO charge MSRP. Our only hobbyshop[ left in "The Valley "- Trains and Lanes does. And if an item is HOT- they will charge above MSRP sometimes.

Jerry Williams did make relatively inexpensive trains compare to Lionel, but he also had some neat brass 3 rail trains made in Korea. I got back into O gauge trains with several of his Pacifics and Mikados from the mid 80's and many others from the 90's.  Williams and Right-of-Way Industries started the Brass movement in O Scale 3 Rail which Sunset's 3rd Rail is carrying on . I still have a Williams Masterpiece NYC Dreyfuss and love the detail said to be equivalent to Lionel's Smithsonian Dreyfuss.

Who remembers the big sell off of Williams trains in the early 90's?  Great prices O scale passenger cars and brass engines. Also, who else ordered the PRR T1 and S2 and waited 2 years for delivery? Finally, it was selling Williams Trains out of his bedroom that got Mike Wolf started in the business.

sxe60 posted:

Jerry Williams did make relatively inexpensive trains compare to Lionel, but he also had some neat brass 3 rail trains made in Korea. I got back into O gauge trains with several of his Pacifics and Mikados from the mid 80's and many others from the 90's.  Williams and Right-of-Way Industries started the Brass movement in O Scale 3 Rail which Sunset's 3rd Rail is carrying on . I still have a Williams Masterpiece NYC Dreyfuss and love the detail said to be equivalent to Lionel's Smithsonian Dreyfuss.

Who remembers the big sell off of Williams trains in the early 90's?  Great prices O scale passenger cars and brass engines. Also, who else ordered the PRR T1 and S2 and waited 2 years for delivery? Finally, it was selling Williams Trains out of his bedroom that got Mike Wolf started in the business.

 

Don't forget that it was Williams that introduces the first new engines in years.  The E-60, SD45, and I think the FP45.  While I was not a fan of his early pickups on the engines and cars at least there was new product with a lot of road names Lionel in the day never thought of producing.  Williams in my opinion shaved a few edges off the corners sometimes but he certainly was important to the industry and hobby.